OT - Insurance question

[conor912]

Hey guys,
Since getting into prewar a few years ago I have spent a small fortune. I'm pulling together scans, lists, etc just to have on hand in case anything should happen. I'm also pulling together all of my invoices, but I was wondering if anyone knows if the invoices themselves are enough, or would I also need to include proof that the invoices were actually paid? I can see how they could argue that showing someone a bill for something is not proof that you actually PAID that bill.

Thanks for the time.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by conor912

Hey guys,
Since getting into prewar a few years ago I have spent a small fortune. I'm pulling together scans, lists, etc just to have on hand in case anything should happen. I'm also pulling together all of my invoices, but I was wondering if anyone knows if the invoices themselves are enough, or would I also need to include proof that the invoices were actually paid? I can see how they could argue that showing someone a bill for something is not proof that you actually PAID that bill.

Thanks for the time.

From past audits, and one for baseball cards with the IRS, it's always better to have as much info as possible. I think you are correct in your assumption too. Though my guess is each auditor has their own style, more information is always better.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

I just started to keep notes of the prices I pay for things. I cannot imagine how annoying an audit would be.


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[vintagetoppsguy]

VCP or CardTarget is great for that. It lists the card, date of purchase, purchase price, shows a scan, etc. Then all you have to do is reference the purchase to your bank account or credit card (or even your PayPal account) which should be pretty easy to do with the date and purchase price. That's all the proof you need to show it was paid for.

If an insurance company is going to refuse to pay a claim, it doesn't matter how much paperwork and "proof" you have. All they have to say is "Ok, you proved you purchased it, now prove you owned it at the time of your reported loss." Just stick with a reputable insurance company.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

My problem is that 90% of my purchases come from the BST.


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[Koufax32fan]

Which insurance companies have members found to be reputable here - any of the ones that market specifically to collectors?

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by Koufax32fan

Which insurance companies have members found to be reputable here - any of the ones that market specifically to collectors?

Here you go:

http://www.collectinsure.com/

Easy to work with and they require that basically you have some proof of what you own, but they insure you for whatever value you want and declaring "scheduled" items, those that are $5k and up. They also have several options and I find them easy to work with.

S Suckow

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Koufax32fan

Which insurance companies have members found to be reputable here - any of the ones that market specifically to collectors?

This is a good question and a better question would be who has had their cards insured and made a claim with no hassles?

I've had two recent experiences the past 5 years with insurance companies (nothing to do with insuring sports cards) in that they are friendly and responsive when it comes to selling you a policy, but will fight you tooth and nail when filing a claim. In talking recently to some of my lawyer friends, they're aghast how much bad faith insurance claims have become a national epidemic. Read the book From Good Hands to Boxing Gloves: The Dark Side of Insurance if you don't believe me. It's a documented fact in certain circumstances for high dollar claims some insurance companies will automatically deny claims and give the flimsiest excuse because research has shown that it pays off since many people will give up too easy and not fight it.

Buying a quality safe and having a home security system is the way to go in my opinion.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't do a lot of work in this area, but one of my most gratifying cases was getting a recalcitrant insurance company to cover a major malpractice verdict for which a client hospital was liable. The efforts to which the company went to deny coverage were quite extraordinary and sad to say probably not atypical.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Buying a quality safe and having a home security system is the way to go in my opinion.

This is exactly what I use...along with my two trained killer Dachshunds.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't do a lot of work in this area, but one of my most gratifying cases was getting a recalcitrant insurance company to cover a major malpractice verdict for which a client hospital was liable. The efforts to which the company went to deny coverage were quite extraordinary and sad to say probably not atypical.

LOL, a war story. A few years back I represented a guy who purchased a disability policy which specifically covered quadriplegia. About 4 months later he's in his car, stopped for a red light, when this drunk driver comes screaming off an exit ramp from the interstate at about 75 mph. He rear ends my guy, who suffers burst fractures of his 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th cervical vertebrae among other injuries. The fact that he can't feel anything from the neck down is noted on the accident report. Among other places, the fact that he's probably a quad is noted on the history and physical when he's admitted to the hospital. It is the discharge diagnosis when he's sent to the rehab facility. The fact that he's a quad is on pretty much every page of the rehab facilitie's daily progress notes, where he got to stay for several months. He now uses a sip and puff wheelchair to get around. This guy is the poster child for when disability coverage is supposed to pay.

My guy's mom fills out a claim form for the disability coverage. In addition to the claim form, she sends in the accident report, a physician's statement, the hospital admitting documents, the discharge report from hospital and a bunch of records from the rehab facility. The carrier's response? You haven't shown that you are disabled, sorry, we have to deny your claim. We appreciate the opportunity to be of service.

Mom, in disbelief, says you must be kidding, you must not have looked at all the proof I sent in, here it is again. The insurer's response the second time? You haven't shown that you are disabled, sorry, we have to deny your claim. We appreciate the opportunity to be of service.

We sued them for fraud and bad faith in federal court. I can't remember the precise number, but after a dogfight during discovery we finally learn that they had sold many, many, thousands of these policies. They had thousands of claims a year and had paid on seven claims over the past five years, five of which they paid on after they were sued. When we took depositions, the claims people were in this dingy little office buidling with cubicles. There were only a couple of claims people who even had an office with a door. The sales people, however, all had real big offices (with doors) in a real tall building with real big windows and a real nice view of downtown New York City. It was pretty clear where the emphasis was.

Ultimately, they paid quite a bit of bad faith money in our case, but I'll hazard a guess that what they paid us was less than .1% off of what they made selliing these policies and denying the claims. Insurance. What a scam.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

This is exactly what I use...along with my two trained killer Dachshunds.

With those dogs the crooks ankle would be in major trouble.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

LOL, a war story. A few years back I represented a guy who purchased a disability policy which specifically covered quadriplegia. About 4 months later he's in his car, stopped for a red light, when this drunk driver comes screaming off an exit ramp from the interstate at about 75 mph. He rear ends my guy, who suffers burst fractures of his 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th cervical vertebrae among other injuries. The fact that he can't feel anything from the neck down is noted on the accident report. Among other places, the fact that he's probably a quad is noted on the history and physical when he's admitted to the hospital. It is the discharge diagnosis when he's sent to the rehab facility. The fact that he's a quad is on pretty much every page of the rehab facilitie's daily progress notes, where he got to stay for several months. He now uses a sip and puff wheelchair to get around. This guy is the poster child for when disability coverage is supposed to pay.

My guy's mom fills out a claim form for the disability coverage. In addition to the claim form, she sends in the accident report, a physician's statement, the hospital admitting documents, the discharge report from hospital and a bunch of records from the rehab facility. The carrier's response? You haven't shown that you are disabled, sorry, we have to deny your claim. We appreciate the opportunity to be of service.

Mom, in disbelief, says you must be kidding, you must not have looked at all the proof I sent in, here it is again. The insurer's response the second time? You haven't shown that you are disabled, sorry, we have to deny your claim. We appreciate the opportunity to be of service.

We sued them for fraud and bad faith in federal court. I can't remember the precise number, but after a dogfight during discovery we finally learn that they had sold many, many, thousands of these policies. They had thousands of claims a year and had paid on seven claims over the past five years, five of which they paid on after they were sued. When we took depositions, the claims people were in this dingy little office buidling with cubicles. There were only a couple of claims people who even had an office with a door. The sales people, however, all had real big offices (with doors) in a real tall building with real big windows and a real nice view of downtown New York City. It was pretty clear where the emphasis was.

Ultimately, they paid quite a bit of bad faith money in our case, but I'll hazard a guess that what they paid us was less than .1% off of what they made selliing these policies and denying the claims. Insurance. What a scam.

Yeah I am sure they do a cost benefit analysis and conclude they come out ahead denying every claim and only paying when pushed to the wall. So your judgment or settlement won't change their behavior in all likelihood.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't do a lot of work in this area, but one of my most gratifying cases was getting a recalcitrant insurance company to cover a major malpractice verdict for which a client hospital was liable. The efforts to which the company went to deny coverage were quite extraordinary and sad to say probably not atypical.

Good for you Peter for not letting that insurance carrier get away with that! But I'm not surprised that happened - I've got a several bad stories myself - one is still in litigation.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yeah I am sure they do a cost benefit analysis and conclude they come out ahead denying every claim and only paying when pushed to the wall. So your judgment or settlement won't change their behavior in all likelihood.

True. That's the thesis of From Good Hands to Boxing Gloves. Insurance companies came to this realization that strategically denying the bigger claims generated a windfall of money for them.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yeah I am sure they do a cost benefit analysis and conclude they come out ahead denying every claim and only paying when pushed to the wall. So your judgment or settlement won't change their behavior in all likelihood.

It is probably going to take a very large punitive award for anything to change.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Insurance. What a scam.

How true.

[CMIZ5290]

I think this is a really good thread. Is it worth it to spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars a year, and not have completely guaranteed protection?. I use Collectibles Insurance, and I believe they increase my coverage about 5% a month? Not completely sure...There are, however, cards that I'm sure I don't have invoices for. Sometimes when you buy a card on Ebay, the seller does not send one with the card. I try to make scans of all cards on my computer, but I'm sure that there are some that I don't have. Also, I don't think any benefit comes along in the event of a card (rare, hard back, low pop....) that gets stolen or lost unless it is listed on the schedule of items. This is certainly a topic I would like to learn a lot more about. Knock on wood, no claims so far....Thanks