What if "the Flying Dutchman" hadn't said "no"?

[the 'stache]

Many articles have been written about, and tv segments devoted to the T206 Honus Wagner. To people outside the hobby, it is the iconic image that represents baseball cards. Certainly having a high profile owner like Wayne Gretzky, and a near $3 million price tag for the best known example only enhanced the card's mystique.

But what if a century ago Honus Wagner hadn't said "no"? What if the Pirate great had allowed his likeness to be printed. The relative scarcity of his card does not exist. Honus Wagner is just another Hall of Famer in a very popular set.

What card, if any, becomes "the one"? The '52 Topps Mickey Mantle is certainly very popular, but while it is highly sought by collectors, and Mantle's popularity is undiminished more than four decades after his retirement, there are more examples of the Mantle in circulation.

How would the hobby as we know it today be different?

[slidekellyslide]

I don't think we know for certain that Wagner said "no" do we? He died in 1955 and by that time it was known that the Wagner card was a very hard card to come by...it would have been cool if Jefferson Burdick, Lionel Carter or any of the other hobby pioneers had asked him what the deal was?

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

What card, if any, becomes "the one"?

Baltimore News Ruth, IMHO

[wolf441]

I agree with Baltimore News Ruth overall. From the T206 set (if nothing else changed), I'd say Eddie Plank goes to the top of the list. If Wagner agreed to be in the set, I also think we'd have 3-4 poses to chase and he'd be valued right around the same as Ty Cobb is now.

Another interesting subject Bill!

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I don't think we know for certain that Wagner said "no" do we? He died in 1955 and by that time it was known that the Wagner card was a very hard card to come by...it would have been cool if Jefferson Burdick, Lionel Carter or any of the other hobby pioneers had asked him what the deal was?

You're right, Dan, we don't know for sure. The speculation has been that he wanted more money, or that he didn't want his likeness on a tobacco card because it could influence children. But hasn't he been on other tobacco cards without there being any issue?

Unless some document surfaces in the future (something like a "cease and desist" letter to ATC from Wagner's attorney), we may never know for sure. But doesn't not knowing for sure add to the card's mystique?

Steve and Greg, I'd thought about which Ruth card could take the place of the Wagner. To be honest, I'm a little surprised there isn't more press about it when Ruth's appeal is taken into consideration. He's still the most popular athlete in American professional sports history, and that Ruth is actually rarer than the white border Wagner issue, is it not?

[steve B]

Probably Plank. If it was any card at all. Some of the 70's exposure to card collecting was ads in the sporting news offering a good bit of money for the Wagner.

I think it's a matter of a certain group of things about a particular collectible that drive the prices.

Great player/ popular subject

Rare item, but not so rare it can't be had at any price without a very long wait. For most mainstream hobbies that seems to be around 50-100 known sometimes a bit less.

Great story.

Easy answer to "why is it valuable"

The Wagner is a great choice, combining all of those.
The same goes for the Upside down airplane stamp
And some of the most expensive US coins (Although they're all more rare.)


The Plank is close, but the story just isn't easy for everyone to understand, and isn't "romantic" enough.

The Baltimore Ruth is too rare.

The 52 Mantle might have it, but it's not really all that uncommon. And while it had some mystique the popularity was really driven by the NY dealers and people who pushed the idea of him as the greatest ever. (Maybe, maybe not - that's something for another thread)

The Wagner, while not the rarest card had all of the above. And did almost from the beginning.

I know someone in a hobby where there are no items that have all those qualities. Even the common stuff is much harder to find than even some of the tougher cards. But the most expensive item is around $10,000. Even some very nice items that exist in maybe 2-3 copies known only get up to maybe 4-5000.
Another hobby I'm into has a group of stuff that put all together might get to 100 items known. Certainly it's under 200. They've become "expensive"
since there's so few, but will never reach the level of the Wagner.

That's because they're too hard to find, the popularity is often variable. And none of the stuff has a story that resonates with non-collectors.

Without a Wagner, our hobby would be much smaller, much less expensive, and the stuff would be a lot harder to find.

Steve B

[Rich Klein]

Once found a small mention of why Wagner did not approve of this card in an old Sporting News mention circa 1911. Just a memory, nothing more.

Rich

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I don't think we know for certain that Wagner said "no" do we? He died in 1955 and by that time it was known that the Wagner card was a very hard card to come by...it would have been cool if Jefferson Burdick, Lionel Carter or any of the other hobby pioneers had asked him what the deal was?

Given that he carried that strip with his T206 card on it, in his pocket, it makes you wonder.

But if we assume he did say "no", then if he hadn't, I would expect that in addition to his portrait becoming run-of-the-mill, we also would have seen a few more poses - perhaps another portrait with a different background color, and maybe a couple of action poses.

The T206 Plank would then have become the holy grail. And regarding the 'blah-ness' of the card's story, I suspect it would have become a bit more dramatic over the years, especially since it wouldn't have had the Wagner to compete with.

[Sean]

I agree with Steve that the Baltimore News is too rare (and also too recent. It doesn't have the history of the other rare cards).

I think that the 1933 Lajoie deserves some consideration as well.