Can corruption kill this beloved hobby?

[ullmandds]

With all this talk about corrupt grading companies...deviants altering cards to get bumps...then reselling through clearing houses like Probstein at a dramatic increase in price...altered scans in some of the most "reputable" major auction houses we know?

I Present my t216 bb miller...1st scan is goodwins(not a crease is visible)...2nd is mine when I received the card(multiple creases evident):


This hobby has been full of crooks since I started collecting...and I suppose none of this is new...but these days things seem out of control.

The Babe Ruth Fro Joys values have virtually been destroyed due to the plethora of counterfeits out there...is it possible all of this corruption can destroy this hobby?

Has any other hobby been destroyed by corruption?

Is this just "the way it has become"...caveat emptor reigns supreme?

[pepis]

At this point Peter, corruption is so big in every facet of the hobby that old timers are being forced to make the choice to join in if you can't beat them sort
of speak which is the reason why, to answer your question no it seems like
corruption is making the hobby bigger and bigger and true knowledge keeps
getting put aside in favor of the mighty buck

[rainier2004]

Peter, you just pegged my biggest fear in the hobby...I collect cards to feel like a kid, not to worry about being screwed.

I am amazed at the standards in this industry, and the fact that most of us don't hold others accountable. AH w/ crappy scans, but we keep bidding. AH employees being charged and convicted w/ real felonies, but we ignore it. TPGs failing to increase security standards, but PSA had the longest line at the National. Whatever happened to a pack of cards costing 50 cents? This hobby doesn't need kids, right? I love this hobby, I wish I knew a better way to protect it.

[prestigecollectibles]

My scans on Ebay or my auction site are always large. I try to make the scans as close to reality or worse so the customer is never surprised and always satisfied. It only makes good business sense.

[Fred]

Pete,

I'm not sure if scans provided from auction houses are modified. Sometimes the scanner default settings are the result of "not so good" scans. However, I've seen it where scans have been manipulated. For example, auction houses would scan OJs so that the images were a bit darker than they truly were. In that case you know someone was screwing around with the contrast and brightness settings after you received a card or lot of cards that were not as dark as the pictures provided.

One thing I would expect is that an accurate description of the card is posted if the scan did not show certain defects.

As far as corruptness killing this hobby goes, just think about the whole basis of TPG grading and the ONE card that started the revolution. To me that places the whole validity of grading on shakey ground. Not only that, you know a lot of cards have been passed as unaltered. I wouldn't think that PSA, SGC or Beckett would pass off a reprint on purpose but you can't tell me that PSA didn't pass off the Wagner and many of the HALL collection of T206 cards as unaltered.

As long as people love this stuff I think it will be hard to kill the hobby. Me for instance, I'd love to see a mass exodus from this hobby so that I could buy the stuff that I love that much cheaper. As long as suckers like me exist, there will be a market for old dead guys depicted on cardboard.

[drcy]

Forgers and scammers pray on the ignorance and greed of collectors. For every other scam, there is an uneducated buyer who thinks he's getting a steal. The buyer is a victim, but that doesn't mean he's entirely innocent.

[HRBAKER]

Can corruption kill this beloved hobby?

In a word, no.
Too many willing accomplices, also known as buyers.

[toppcat]

It's not just the hobby, it's everywhere.

[Leon]

I don't think corruption will kill the hobby. If we are all diligent we can significantly decrease it in our sphere, by keeping individuals and companies accountable for their actions. Thank God for the FBI, Postal Inspectors, Secret Service and other law enforcement who take an interest in our hobby. And thanks to all collectors who try to rat out the bad guys, wherever they may be.

[HRBAKER]

We get what we put up with.
And we've proven to be a resourceful bunch.

[barrysloate]

Corruption and fraud aren't going to help the hobby, and there will certainly be some attrition due to it. But the hobby will somehow manage to survive, perhaps a little smaller but still with a pulse. That said, it's disgusting some of the things that go on. If collectors weren't so addicted many would walk away, but the lure of stuff is too great.

[drcy]

If eBay has taught us anything, it's that there are a lot of painfully stupid people in this world.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by drcy

If eBay has taught us anything, it's that there are a lot of painfully stupid people in this world.

...and a whole lot of smart ones who accept it as the course of doing business.

[drcy]

You call them painfully stupid, P.T. Barnum calls them a new market.

Though, in defense of stupid buyers, there are a lot of stupid sellers too.

[steve B]

I don't think it will wreck everything.

For one, it's always been there. The methods and money have changed, but the same stuff goes on. Cards were cleaned and trimmed before TPG came along, and that was one of the big selling points of TPG.

Cards were commonly overgraded as well. Especially when there was a lot of mailorder without scans or TPG. How many times did we hear "it's excellent for its age" back in the old days? Or see some dealers who would call a card with rounded corners and a big crease VG? Or one with a bent corner NM?

Ohter hobbies have similar problems.

With stamps there was an expertizing company that got caught passing the stuff sent in by certain dealers with little or no actual examination. And outright fakes, and alterations have been done since nearly the very beginning. (As well as wealthy speculators convincing countries with the most rudimentary postal services to issue large series that the specualtor would sell for them. Or ordering legitimately some really odd combinations of stamped envelopes. )

Old racing bikes are almost always subject to crazy claims of being ridden by certain riders, when they're the wrong size, or the entirely wrong maker. Even a simple "team bike" attributed to no rider in particular is occasionally faked.

Cars have been discovered that have very dubious calims to being original OR even what they are claimed to be. I once had an opportunity to buy a Hemi Charger. The price was very low. When I checked into it, what I found was that I'd recieve the VIN and data plates in an envelope. For a bit extra I'd get the frame parts that stiffened the car body to take the extra horsepower. The rest was up to me. (Buy a Charger and weld in the frame bits then find the rest of the parts)

All three of those hobbies are doing just fine. The exertizing companies got it together, the information is available to ID a fake bike, and the info about spotting cars that are just "wrong" is also out there.

Do fakes and alterations still happen? Yes. Are stamps, Bikes and cars still misrepresented? Yes. (It's the same for pretty much any hobby) Have those hobbies been ruined? Nope.

Steve B

[drcy]

If we're really serious about cleaning up this problem, we should bring back flogging.

[the-illini]

I get that scanner settings, etc can make a card look different that its actual appearance. That said, if I am selling something and my scan hides a flaw and I notice it, I re-scan the card.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by the-illini

I get that scanner settings, etc can make a card look different that its actual appearance. That said, if I am selling something and my scan hides a flaw and I notice it, I re-scan the card.

Yup...

[drcy]

Of historical note, Isaac Newton was Warden of the British Royal Mint and in charge of hunting down counterfeiters.

I don't know what were his views of flogging.

[67_Palmer]

Originally Posted by toppcat

It's not just the hobby, it's everywhere.

This

[martindl]

Originally Posted by Leon

I don't think corruption will kill the hobby. If we are all diligent we can significantly decrease it in our sphere, by keeping individuals and companies accountable for their actions. Thank God for the FBI, Postal Inspectors, Secret Service and other law enforcement who take an interest in our hobby. And thanks to all collectors who try to rat out the bad guys, wherever they may be.

While I agree with the sentiment Leon, the truth is there's very much a "look the other way" mentality that pervades this hobby. If you had say a jewelry store in your local area, one run by a known cheater so accused based on multiple proven instances of past wrong doing, who consistently offers up gold that is really brass, would the people in your area continue to flock there? No they wouldn't. They'd avoid the place like the plague.

Not so in this hobby. Regardless of past and present indisgressions, people keep going back. Like Barry said, it's an addiction and like most addictions, it defies logical actions.

Martin Dalziel

[MBMiller25]

I think any time you involve money and wealth you will find corruption and fraud not to far behind. In my opinion it's a shame that it has become as blatant and in your face like is, but I refer back to my first sentence.

[ethicsprof]

the hobby will not die. It may well, at some point, lose its preoccupation with(1)
grades and grading,(2) competitive oneupsmanship,(3) ad hominem arguments,(4)
illusions that avocations must be remunerative vocations at all costs,(5) expertise
becoming synonymous with ruthless, retaliatory efforts backed by perfect card corners or the lack thereof, and,(6)the unrelenting desire to win and gain no matter the harm to the hobby or to another.

I like that Pete U. described the hobby as the beloved hobby. Losing the
preoccupations with the aforementioned may well renew, even revivify,
our own relationship with the beloved. Nothing will kill that. IMHO

all the best,
barry

[ethicsprof]

THIS IS A REPEAT. I' M SORRY.

I like that Pete U. described the hobby as the beloved hobby. Losing the
preoccupations with the aforementioned may well renew, even revivify,
our own relationship with the beloved. Nothing will kill that. IMHO

all the best,
barry

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by ethicsprof

the hobby will not die. It may well, at some point, lose its preoccupation with(1)
grades and grading,(2) competitive oneupsmanship,(3) ad hominem arguments,(4)
illusions that avocations must be remunerative vocations at all costs,(5) expertise
becoming synonymous with ruthless, retaliatory efforts backed by perfect card corners or the lack thereof, and,(6)the unrelenting desire to win and gain no matter the harm to the hobby or to another.

I like that Pete U. described the hobby as the beloved hobby. Losing the
preoccupations with the aforementioned may well renew, even revivify,
our own relationship with the beloved. Nothing will kill that. IMHO

all the best,
barry

Barry,

I'm headed for my thesaurus again!

[Zach Wheat]

I don't think it will wreck the hobby by any means. Deceptive practices have always been present to some extent. I have become a helluva lot more educated buyer.

Z Wheat

[ethicsprof]

you don't need it, buddy.
I've been reading your fine comments for years!!
all the best,
barry

[Peter_Spaeth]

Has even one person walked away as the result of everything that has been revealed to date, and everything that is suspected? I doubt it. Nobody cares, and certainly not in the face of a card up for sale on our list.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Has even one person walked away as the result of everything that has been revealed to date, and everything that is suspected? I doubt it. Nobody cares, and certainly not in the face of a card up for sale on our list.

It's the perfect sandbox.

But Peter the occasional bout of righteous indignation is good for the soul.

[itjclarke]

I really hope not.

I never see myself walking away.

[murcerfan]

1st scan is goodwins(not a crease is visible)...2nd is mine when I received the card(multiple creases evident):


how dare you question a banner advertiser here?

bidding privileges revoked.

no more cards for you!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by murcerfan

1st scan is goodwins(not a crease is visible)...2nd is mine when I received the card(multiple creases evident):


how dare you question a banner advertiser here?

bidding privileges revoked.

no more doctored cards for you!

another stupid comment....put the bottle down Dave...

And I should clarify, if this comment was meant to be towards an auction house, I guess it could be warranted. But no one has been banned, EVER, from this board for bashing an auction house, advertiser or not.

[MattyC]

I say no: the shady dealings of some are just reflective of the human condition. The Cards themselves remain pure and good, a connection to excellence on the field, to pleasurable memories and history. The Cards are what we own-- and once in our collections, they have nothing forever to do with the unethical out there.

There is corruption on Wall Street, and yet the bell rings everyday-- and will until the comet hits.

There's corruption in sports, and yet teams show up, fans show up, and new players and fans are being born every second.

Corruption in politics, and yet elections every year.

It's just part of the human condition. It is by no means specific solely to this one little hobby.

But there are just as many, if not more, good people than scumbags out there. It is just in human nature to notice and spend time on the bad over the good. Just look at the news; ten bad stories for every uplifting one. But that ratio belies how it is in reality. I've met far more great, helpful, stand-up guys in this hobby than I've met scumbags. I've seen guys go out of their way to educate, help track down a card, help wise others up so as not to be ripped off, seen guys refund and make good on deals gone sideways, seen guys complete big deals when they could've taken the cash given on trust and ran. But those stories we all have just don't get the press, understandably, as much as the misleading scans or shills or incompetent graders.

There is a natural and understandable tendency for us to want-- even expect-- our hobby to be immune to the crap we see elsewhere in life. This is because to so many of us, our collections are a sanctuary, a refuge, an oasis, a connection to a simpler, happier time than adulthood. But this expectation is just a touch of idealism and willful naïveté on our part, is all. It's easy and again so understandable, why we want it to be free of corruption and scumbaggery. But as MBMiller said, once we mix adult humans and money, we know what virus will eventually manifest. This just makes our hobby real, at least until you get the card in hand and into the collection-- then it is all good and there is no corruption. Just collector and card.

But then we have to leave the sanctuary and re-enter the real world to go in search of the next card. And all that is just proof of how much enjoyment our collections bring us; they spoil us and make us want every aspect of collecting to be as pure and pleasurable.

So anyways my worthless opinion is no, we're okay.

[drcy]

From the Canadian backwoods comedy show The Red Green Show, when resident antique store owner Dalton Humphrey was asked if he'd sell a dangerously defective old car to a family member: "Each and every one of my family and friends is an integral and cherished part of my life, but a buck's a buck."

Dalton said he used to own a junk store but wasn't making enough money so changed it into an antiques store. When asked how he did that, he said he changed the sign out front.

As has often been said, you can find all of humanity in Shakespeare and The Red Green Show.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by toppcat

It's not just the hobby, it's everywhere.

+1

At least the hobby is no where near as corrupt as D.C. is.

Sincerely, Clayton

[frankbmd]

In front of a card shop near me

[autograf]

As we've seen countless times, "STUFF TRUMPS ETHICS"......countless times auction houses have been caught trimming, enhancing, spooning, ironing, touting, shilling, etc and we (most of us) continue to bid with them. SO.....who's the problem? Them? or US? As long as we keep buying the stuff.....the hobby goes on. Some of those who rail the loudest are adding new stuff to their collection every day.........

[robw]

Having taken a near 20 year break from the hobby/industry, and now back for the past year, here's my 2 cents.

1) Corruption will not kill this, our culture will/does. Cards are not looked at like they were in the 50's, 60's and prior. Baseball was life back then, and cards a way to live vicariously through said life. It wasn't about condition, but about completing sets, getting your favorite player/team. That is long gone...now it's about winning the lottery with chase cards. Not to mention, there are many, many more hobbies and interests to partake in today than in prior times.

2) Once something is labeled as "collectible," it typically isn't-that's the new card market today

3) TPG's are a must, in my opinion. I am less a conspiracy theorist than most and do think they are as unbiased as it is going to get. I got out of the business originally just as the idea of TPG's were just starting to be mentioned. Now, I probably won't buy a card online that hasn't gone through a TPG. I know too many people that have been burned by ungraded singles hoping to grade them, only to find they have been altered. Fortunately for some, unfortunately for most newcomers, it's going to cost an arm and a leg to start buying high-graded older cards...that price barrier knocks many people out of the "industry."

4) People in the industry-even the most legitimate dealers share the blame in my opinion. Ever look how many auctions are on eBay? My searches show about 10% of all listings. Everything else is "Buy It Now." Even some of the auction prices start ABOVE book value. I've been to larger trade shows recently, as well. There's no excitement. Cards I thought were rare 20 years ago are stacked in graded cases as high as the ceiling-and its just the same show, time after time. The dealers don't even move around-same table arrangement, etc.

It's just like golf, though-it only takes a single great shot to keep you coming back....i'll keep searching for my diamonds in the rough.

Rob

[ullmandds]

The thing that "rubs" me is that I'd have paid double what that t216 blank back miller ended up selling for...as I believed it was the only one. Many of us have similar lunatic tendencies regarding our collections...so it isn't necessary for the AH's to be deceptive? Just b F...k'in honest...we'll still pay?!?!?!?!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

The thing that "rubs" me is that I'd have paid double what that t216 blank back miller ended up selling for...as I believed it was the only one. Many of us have similar lunatic tendencies regarding our collections...so it isn't necessary for the AH's to be deceptive? Just b F...k'in honest...we'll still pay?!?!?!?!

Pete- Are you positive the AH knew there was another and then said that the one they sold was the only one known? The consignor sold some of them privately too. And I am not sure the AH knew about some of the rest they didn't get to sell.

[ullmandds]

Leon...I'm more concerned with the absent creases/wrinkles on Goodwins' scans...the fact that another miller bb turned up doesn't bother me so much...esp since I now own it!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Leon...I'm more concerned with the absent creases/wrinkles on Goodwins' scans...the fact that another miller bb turned up doesn't bother me so much...esp since I now own it!

Well, I agree that disappearing creases are a concern. Fortunately on this particular card it's not really a huge deal since the cut is so scrappy looking anyway. But I totally agree about scans in our industry not looking like the cards they portray. That is never cool in my book. I know in our auction we try our best to make the scans be identical to the way the cards really look (in hand). That is the way they should be. I really don't understand this whole issue. I put a card on a scanner. I don't mess with the settings, it scans, I upload it...and viola. The card looks the same in the scan as in hand. It's not rocket science.

[travrosty]

It will never change because many people don't want things to change, they want the status quo because they make money. Like a bookie in vegas, they don't care who you bet on, they make money either way.

TPA's just the start. If people don't like TPA's and their hypocrisy, what are they doing about it? Most are doing nothing. A few are and I applaud them. Are people writing articles, do you ever see any hard hitting pieces investigating the fraud in the traditional outlets like SCB or Beckert? no you don't. Why is that?

Whoever gets caught is always going to be somebody's buddy, that's the problem. So any website exposing the fraudulent activity in the hobby is going to be panned by the network of friends. That's the way it is. Everyone wants fraud gone in the hobby as long as the person being caught is not a friend of theirs or they don't lose money on it.

Any auction house scanning items that don't look the same as the item you receive in hand is going to get even less scrutiny. No one wants to be on the outs of an auction house. Once someone gets caught and has to close up shop, then the chorus begins because their is no risk anymore. Now that I told the truth please let me have it.

[robw]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Leon...I'm more concerned with the absent creases/wrinkles on Goodwins' scans...the fact that another miller bb turned up doesn't bother me so much...esp since I now own it!

Pete, out of curiosity, aren't we typically buying for the grade and scarcity of the card? I see in this instance it was graded "A", but would you have really bid any less because of a crease? I mean, the card was seemingly cut with scissors. Do you think the AH was trying to be deceptive in the matter, like saying "no creases" and then this is what you got. In a perfect world, we could touch the card before bidding online, but I don't know how much they were going out of there way to hide the creases in this case.

Rob

[ullmandds]

Rob..."we" buy cards for various reasons...grade...scarcity...whatever the reason it doesn't really matter. I personally don't buy cards for the grade...ever. In this case...I am going for a run of Dots Miller big glove cards with as many different backs as possible. Before these T216 blank backs were offered by goodwin...noone seemed to know that t216 blank backs existed.

So in this case this card is rare. I wanted this card no matter the condition. Does this make it acceptable...even though the card is graded A...is obviously hand cut...and not well...to provide a scan that doesn't accurately depict the true condition of the card? I don't believe so?!

We all know that all Authentic cards are not created equal...just as all grades are not...barring nmt-mt cards...which I could not care less about!!!!

Had this been a 33 goudey ruth card...of which there are tons...and I received it only to see numerous creases not evident on the scans provided...I'd be pissed...and I'd seek retribution.

As usual with me...it's about the principles of the matter...

[slipk1068]

My scanner isn't that fancy. It sometimes shows me defects in my cards I didn't know existed. I scan a card, see something, look at it carefully and don't see the spec of a wrinkle until I use a loupe. I know my vision isn't getting any better with age, but my point is that scanners, even mediocre ones, should be able to accurately display a card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

So Pete, what are you going to do about it? Complain to Bill? Refuse to bid in his future auctions? Ask more questions next time?

[Exhibitman]

"Kill" things? No. What can happen if fraud runs (more) rampant is that the unschooled money investors and casual collectors will drop out. What will be killed is the market for cards. We could see a shift back to the pre-boom days of $20 T206 HOFers and so forth. Not sure that will ever happen but some form of devaluation very well could.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by autograf

As we've seen countless times, "STUFF TRUMPS ETHICS"......countless times auction houses have been caught trimming, enhancing, spooning, ironing, touting, shilling, etc and we (most of us) continue to bid with them. SO.....who's the problem? Them? or US? As long as we keep buying the stuff.....the hobby goes on. Some of those who rail the loudest are adding new stuff to their collection every day.........

Well said. And I would add that we (myself included) continue to buy cards although there is a reasonable chance they have been tampered with in some way.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Leon

I know in our auction we try our best to make the scans be identical to the way the cards really look (in hand).

I can't speak for anyone else, but before our catalog goes to print we review each image (including secondary images) to make sure they are accurate. True, it's always important to put an item's "best foot forward" in both the description and photograph. However, it's even more important to be accurate lest we lose the confidence of a bidder.