New '52 Mantle Forgery...This one is clever

[Brianruns10]

All,

There is a new Mantle forgery on ebay. I've contacted the seller, but if you all can chip in by reporting this auction, it'd be a tremendous help. The sale is going for serious money, and someone will get burned unless we do something.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-TOPPS-M...item4d0b7544c2

The disturbing thing is, the forgeries are getting better. Last year I saw 3 or 4 fakes in cracked holders, but all were rather obvious in that the Yankees Team Logo was too good, and had a two tone baseball bat instead of the correct solid black.

But this new forgery corrects for that. However, there are four key diagnostics which can be easily spotted, to save you or people you know from being taken for a ride!

Here is the card in question.



Diagnostic 1: Every forgery I've seen is of the Type A, and all examples are artificially aged, appearing in cracked PSA holders graded 3 to 4. They have well rounded corners. They never come sharp. But the corners are UNIFORMLY rounded, unnaturally so, as if done by hand, when of course real wear comes unevenly based on how the card was handled over the years (such as being repeatedly removed from boxes or sleeves, or being handled by one corner or another)

Diagnostic 2: Despite the rounded corners, the card is ALWAYS perfectly centered with bright white corners. Centered examples are tough to find, centered with original colors...but centered, with original colors, yet heavily worn on the corners? There should be more fading to correspond with the level of wear.

Diagnostic 3: In the lower left corner of the image border, on the fake example there is an extra pixel. This is inconsistent with both authentic types. Type A is missing a pixel and has a rounded corner, while type B is just right with a nicely defined corner. However, this detail may not be apparent for ebay auctions, if the image isn't sufficiently high res. Which leads too...

Diagnostic 4: This is the KEY diagnostic, and has to do with the positioning of the Y in Mickey, in relation to the inner black border of the star box.

Compare the images below, of an authentic Type A & Type B, and the suspect card.



Note the position of the Y in relation to the black border. For type As it practically touches. Even for type Bs, it is very, very close. But the suspect card, indeed for EVERY forgery I've seen, there is a sizeable gap.

This diagnostic is an absolute means of verifying authenticity. Tthe 52 tops were printed in a four color offset method, with the three primary colors (Yellow, Cyan, Magenta) topped by a B/W layer to add contrast. This last layer contained the autograph itself as well as the black portions of the star box....so the spatial relationship between the two is ABSOLUTE (as opposed to some variable shift as each separate layer is applied to the backing). The positioning of the Y in relation to the black border is absolute, and if the card you see does not fit, it cannot be an authentic Mantle.

[savedfrommyspokes]

The fonts on the left side of the PSA flip seem off, almost like they are too large.

[chaddurbin]

yes might have better luck contacting psa directly about the fake flip. they can get it off ebay faster than anybody else i bet.

[Brianruns10]

Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes

The fonts on the left side of the PSA flip seem off, almost like they are too large.

Indeed they are, good eye.

I tend to avoid trying to authenticate PSA inserts, because they are easy enough to fake by ripping off a scan from heritage auctions or someplace.

I really wish they'd get on the bandwagon like PCGS does, and adopt some kind of holographic technology. That or more tamper resilient cases.

[cardinalcollector]

That is fantastic documentation. Nice work.

[RobertGT]

Reported.

Let us know what the seller has to say about his fake - if he knows it's a fake.

[Brianruns10]

Originally Posted by RobertGT

Reported.

Let us know what the seller has to say about his fake - if he knows it's a fake.

Still no reply from him. The really bad thing about this auction, is the seller is a legit collector. Usually these Mantles are being peddled by local yokels dealing in NASCAR memorabilia and crap no older than the mid 90s. It's a big red flag because it's clear these fellows have no experience in handling quality vintage. However this new fellow deals in coins and vintage cards. I suspect he got had by the forgery, which is really quite good, much better than the ones making the rounds in 2012.

Just goes to show, you gotta buy the card, not the plastic. Every major purchase I make, I research beforehand. When I collected coins, I got to where I could ID a coin's date and where it was made just by the reverse side. I wasn't gonna get burned because I was ignorant.

[nsaddict]

The seller purchased this card in January for 9K

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-M...p2047675.l2557

[Brianruns10]

Originally Posted by nsaddict

The seller purchased this card in January for 9K

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-M...p2047675.l2557

Oh good god. The man got taken for a hell of a ride. You don't suppose he probably knows he got burned, and is passing it along to some poor schmuck? I wish there was a way to warn all those poor bidders.

And it is even more obvious in those photos that this item has been tampered with. You can see the frosting on both sides of the PSA holder!

[Cardboard Junkie]

"Poof!" Gone.....good job fellas! Dave.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by Brianruns10

Oh good god. The man got taken for a hell of a ride. You don't suppose he probably knows he got burned, and is passing it along to some poor schmuck? I wish there was a way to warn all those poor bidders.

And it is even more obvious in those photos that this item has been tampered with. You can see the frosting on both sides of the PSA holder!

He must not have figured out that what he bought was a fake/tampered with until at least 45 days after his purchase, as he had 45 days to return through ebay in order to receive a full refund

[Bestdj777]

Does anyone see any indication that this slab was cracked? Trying to figure out how they are getting these things into slabs.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by Bestdj777

Does anyone see any indication that this slab was cracked? Trying to figure out how they are getting these things into slabs.

In the images from the original ebay sale back in Jan, there is frosting visible along the edge of the case's frame ....usually a good indicator of tampering

[Bestdj777]

Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes

In the images from the original ebay sale back in Jan, there is frosting visible along the edge of the case's frame ....usually a good indicator of tampering

Thanks! Trying to learn what to look for on these things. I appreciate you pointing it out for me.

[Harliduck]

Wow...the knowledge and experience here is mind boggling to me. Nicely done saving some poor schmuck a ton of dough and heartache. I do feel bad for the seller, but hey, not the fault of the new buyer. Now he will know it's fake, I hope he doesn't try another avenue to get rid of it.

I am going to be in the market for a 3 or 4 this upcoming February. These type of posts and the archives of this site will be invaluable to me. For that...thanks a million...I have a lot of time to get educated on this card and I intend to do so. I do have to say that the font on the PSA tag looked immediately off...but the other stuff...wow.

[Brianruns10]

Originally Posted by Harliduck

Wow...the knowledge and experience here is mind boggling to me. Nicely done saving some poor schmuck a ton of dough and heartache. I do feel bad for the seller, but hey, not the fault of the new buyer. Now he will know it's fake, I hope he doesn't try another avenue to get rid of it.

I am going to be in the market for a 3 or 4 this upcoming February. These type of posts and the archives of this site will be invaluable to me. For that...thanks a million...I have a lot of time to get educated on this card and I intend to do so. I do have to say that the font on the PSA tag looked immediately off...but the other stuff...wow.

Best advice I can give when it comes to the '52 Mantle, it is a very, very good idea to buy in person. While diagnostics like the ones I've shown can help you out, nothing beats seeing the card in person. You can spot a fake a mile away, because it's simply not possible to recreate the vintage four color process, and the look and the feel and the colors. The National is a great place to buy, and if you bring cash, you can get some deals. Failing that, buy from a reputable dealer or an auction house like heritage or Memory Lane.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes

He must not have figured out that what he bought was a fake/tampered with until at least 45 days after his purchase, as he had 45 days to return through ebay in order to receive a full refund

The buyer also left positive feedback following the transaction: "All went well. Nicely packaged. thanks"

[the 'stache]

I was about to report it, but it's gone. Good job, guys!

That's one of the things I love about this forum. People are not only friendly and knowledgeable, but they police the hobby, too.

[the 'stache]

Going back to what brianruns10 said in post #7 about the typical sellers of this card, look at the original seller for this card from back in January. A 103 buyer rating, and he's only had one other sale in the last twelve months, a SLR camera. He doesn't even have a seller rating yet. Yet now we're to believe he's got the most desired post war baseball card in existence, and it's an almost perfectly centered specimen? Even before an examination of the card, that wouldn't pass the smell test.

And not only is there frosting all around the slab, but it looks like one of the pegs has been popped as well. Look at the one below the lower left hand corner of the flip. Compare it to the one on the opposite side.

I also agree that the typography looks off; the font size is a little to large.

[Brianruns10]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Going back to what brianruns10 said in post #7 about the typical sellers of this card, look at the original seller for this card from back in January. A 103 buyer rating, and he's only had one other sale in the last twelve months, a SLR camera. He doesn't even have a seller rating yet. Yet now we're to believe he's got the most desired post war baseball card in existence, and it's an almost perfectly centered specimen? Even before an examination of the card, that wouldn't pass the smell test.

And not only is there frosting all around the slab, but it looks like one of the pegs has been popped as well. Look at the one below the lower left hand corner of the flip. Compare it to the one on the opposite side.

I also agree that the typography looks off; the font size is a little to large.

The fellow trying to sell it, who bought it from that suspect dealer, really should've known better, as a collector and a dealer in vintage cards.

As the saying goes, buy the card, not the plastic. If people only knew the quantitative and qualitative diagnostics for the '52 Mantle, these forgeries would never sell.

[savedfrommyspokes]

I printed out an image of this card(as I have done with other cards that are suspect) and attempted to scan the barcode, and the barcode would NOT scan on this card. I have many others cards I have done this with and have scanned. While the cert number is able to be looked up and verified in the system, the barcode should be able to be scanned and match the cert number on the right of the card. Not all fakes, but on a good number of them(the bad fakes especially), the barcode either does not scan at all or does not match the cert number when scanned.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Brianruns10

The fellow trying to sell it, who bought it from that suspect dealer, really should've known better, as a collector and a dealer in vintage cards.

My thinking exactly.

If we were in the market for a rare painting, before making a purchase, we would look to verify authenticity, would we not? Well, a '52 Mantle may not be a Picasso, or a Degas, but it is a high value item, one that has been circling this Earth for some 60 years. And absence of the provenance that might certify authenticity, and chain of ownership, when making that purchase, anybody with at least an average number of brain cells should at the bare minimum investigate who it is they're buying from.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes

I printed out an image of this card(as I have done with other cards that are suspect) and attempted to scan the barcode, and the barcode would NOT scan on this card. I have many others cards I have done this with and have scanned. While the cert number is able to be looked up and verified in the system, the barcode should be able to be scanned and match the cert number on the right of the card. Not all fakes, but on a good number of them(the bad fakes especially), the barcode either does not scan at all or does not match the cert number when scanned.

saved, that's actually quite fascinating. And I wonder if that's not one of the ways that collectors like you and I could be protected when buying a graded card.

We look at the barcodes, and see a series of black lines. Well, I wonder if there isn't a way to increase the complexity of the barcodes so they would appear normal to the naked eye, yet would somehow immediately disqualify fakes when scanned. PSA could make available some type of scanner for purchase to their clientele so when your purchased card arrives from some third party, you can scan it, and verify it's authenticity.

The idea would be analogous to writing on a grain of rice. An incredible amount of information can be stored in a very tiny place. Who says that same methodology couldn't be used on a flip. It would require a fairly high level of sophistication, something that your average thief wouldn't know how to replicate.

[RobertGT]

I'm not so sure an unsuspecting bidder hasn't been scammed out of big bucks in this auction.

This auction wasn't yanked by eBay, rather it was shut down by the seller with the explanation that "the item is no longer available." That could mean two things:

1) The sellers has a conscience and removed the auction after being informed it was a fake or:

2) Seller has a deal to sell the card off eBay. In my experience, when auctions are shut down early, it's usually because the seller has struck a deal with a bidder to do the deal off ebay and avoid ebay's horrendous fees for a high-dollar item. This would mean the worst case scenario for the bidder because he will not be protected by a misrepresentation claim.

I would be curious to hear what the seller's explanation is for why this card was yanked from ebay. Also, should watch him to see if the card pops up on his site in a month or two.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

saved, that's actually quite fascinating. And I wonder if that's not one of the ways that collectors like you and I could be protected when buying a graded card.

We look at the barcodes, and see a series of black lines. Well, I wonder if there isn't a way to increase the complexity of the barcodes so they would appear normal to the naked eye, yet would somehow immediately disqualify fakes when scanned. PSA could make available some type of scanner for purchase to their clientele so when your purchased card arrives from some third party, you can scan it, and verify it's authenticity.

The idea would be analogous to writing on a grain of rice. An incredible amount of information can be stored in a very tiny place. Who says that same methodology couldn't be used on a flip. It would require a fairly high level of sophistication, something that your average thief wouldn't know how to replicate.

Bill, not sure if you have seen this link or not, but I keep it in mind when looking over these types of cards. Yes, one would think there should be better technology than a simple barcode to help verify authenticity.

http://bbcemporium.com/california-craigs-list-psa-scam/

[Bestdj777]

Although scanning the bar code may work on some, I have heard of some people using legitimate PSA labels/holders but replacing them with fake cards. Several weeks ago, someone was actually selling the holder and label for a cracked 52 Mantle on eBay. At the time, I think it was bringing decent money as well.

[Brianruns10]

Originally Posted by Bestdj777

Although scanning the bar code may work on some, I have heard of some people using legitimate PSA labels/holders but replacing them with fake cards. Several weeks ago, someone was actually selling the holder and label for a cracked 52 Mantle on eBay. At the time, I think it was bringing decent money as well.

Which is PRECISELY why you can't go by any diagnostics relating to the PSA holder. Because everything can be forged properly.

But forging the card is far, far more difficult if you know what to look for, such as what I've pointed out. We all need to educate ourselves on these forgeries, which I suspect are coming from the same small group of people, as they all have the same false aging, the same diagnostics for fakery.

[sportscollector]

that is the worst fake mantle and worst by far fake PSA lable I ever saw. its so bad even ray Charles or stevie wonder should be able to tell it's fake.

[Brianruns10]

Originally Posted by sportscollector

that is the worst fake mantle and worst by far fake PSA lable I ever saw. its so bad even ray Charles or stevie wonder should be able to tell it's fake.

Can't argue with you there. To the educated eye, there should be no mistaking a real from a forgery. You simply can replicate the printing methods they used in '52 via modern processes. It's just not the same.

Sadly some don't educate themselves. They just buy the plastic. They haven't bothered to gain wisdom into the hobby. They just buy these cards like commodities, to diversify their investment portfolios, to later be sold for a 10 percent return.

They are fools from whom they deserve to be parted from their money. The only reason I personally don't let these suckers lose their money, is these forgeries harm the hobby as a whole, and scare away new participants, which we desperately need. There aren't enough young people like me getting involved, and there needs to be more.

[Rickyy]

This was a great post Brian...every new collector should learn this lesson. Some forgeries are so good you can't tell unless you see it up close...but with this one...if you took the time before hand to learn the nuiances of card doctoring as well as becoming familiar with this Topps issue and what it should look like...you would have been able to tell by looking at this scan that something was just not right....

It took me about 10 year into the hobby before I had the acquired the knowlege and confidence needed to purchase mine...

Ricky Y