Getting sick of the more obvious frauds

[calvindog]

This Star Player Cobb card has been on ebay for a while with the following description: "The last SGC 10 (1) sold for $6900 and this card rarely comes up for auction." The seller generously listed it for a huge discount at $5299. Only one problem: the "last" SGC 10 of this card was his purchase 30 days ago for $2629. The $6900 figure is from a sale in 2008.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/1928-Star-Pl...item20d161bb63

[Seattle799]

What do you think of this one? Fraud, or just a terrible scanner?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/151021973737

[auggiedoggy]

Originally Posted by Seattle799

What do you think of this one? Fraud, or just a terrible scanner?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/151021973737

Looks like it spent some time in a washing machine.

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by calvindog

This Star Player Cobb card has been on ebay for a while with the following description: "The last SGC 10 (1) sold for $6900 and this card rarely comes up for auction." The seller generously listed it for a huge discount at $5299. Only one problem: the "last" SGC 10 of this card was his purchase 30 days ago for $2629. The $6900 figure is from a sale in 2008.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/1928-Star-Pl...item20d161bb63

Unfortunately finding legit sellers who aren't trying to rip people off or asking a king's go***mn ransom on every single card is getting harder and harder to find in this hobby. It truly is becoming a sad state of affairs. I honestly believe some people think everybody but them are morons who have "no idea" how to research what cards are actually worth and what they've recently sold for. It's actually quite insulting to potential buyers.

I LOVE the guys who JUST purchased cards a few days, few weeks or few months prior then mark it up 200-300% of what they JUST bought it for, lol! I mean seriously.....it's getting old REAL fast.

[Mikehealer]

Originally Posted by calvindog

This Star Player Cobb card has been on ebay for a while with the following description: "The last SGC 10 (1) sold for $6900 and this card rarely comes up for auction." The seller generously listed it for a huge discount at $5299. Only one problem: the "last" SGC 10 of this card was his purchase 30 days ago for $2629. The $6900 figure is from a sale in 2008.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/1928-Star-Pl...item20d161bb63

I saw that a week or so ago and thought exactly the same thing. I don't understand sellers like this at all. Blatantly dishonest.

[Matthew H]

Buyer beware: A TPG poor grade can mean almost anything... The $6900 card received the same grade but they don't compare... Oh, he doctored the scan too

[Harliduck]

I'm a post war vintage guy, but see the same thing. I've actually now seen a couple of cards where I was the underbidder showing up here on our B/S/T for three or four times the ebay won price. I don't mind someone trying to make a little profit, but some seem ridiculous...

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by Harliduck

I'm a post war vintage guy, but see the same thing. I've actually now seen a couple of cards where I was the underbidder showing up here on our B/S/T for three or four times the ebay won price. I don't mind someone trying to make a little profit, but some seem ridiculous...

I've said it many times, I'm all for sellers trying to make a little profit, hell I've been known to be very generous in my offers compared to recent sales on certain cards. But I draw the line when sellers act like an a$$ with me by deliberately asking 2-3 times what a card has been selling for. They think just because they see a couple fluke large price spikes on a couple rare cards here and there in major auction houses, that everybody is a moron now and willing to way overpay for every single card.

It's an annoying trend that's been growing a lot lately not only here but on Ebay as well. It's caused a handful of my former collecting buddies, whom I've known since the late 90's when we all got into vintage cardboard, to completely leave the hobby. Not because they didnt have deep enough pockets (which definitely wasn't the case), it was because they were tired of constantly dealing with unrealistic sellers for every little thing.

Ok rant over........

[glynparson]

I agree with Jeff about lying in descriptions. However those complaining about people's prices, get over it. It's their card if you don't like it maybe you should have outbid them the first time, when they bought it. It's America they have the right to price as they see fit. Do you same people go into the big box stores and complain because you could buy the tv or ipad cheaper on ebay? Ebay isn't really a retail market, it's pricing is sort of a retail/wholesale mixture. Like I said if you dont like someones price make them an offer if they have that option, if not just move on it's only cardboard. Absent lying I don't see why a person cant ask what they want for their card. Also this idea that nothing has ever sold in auction for a fraction of it's value is also laughable. Many times things sell on eBay for 1/2 to 1/3 of value. There's a lot of material and things slip through the cracks.

[Sean1125]

You can ask whatever you want for something... Not sure why people are ripping on someone for trying to profit... I've listed cards at 2-3x what I've paid thinking someone would make an offer. Actually, that is what I would hope for in that case. If you don't want something or think it is too high either make an offer or just move along...

[markf31]

Originally Posted by calvindog

This Star Player Cobb card has been on ebay for a while with the following description: "The last SGC 10 (1) sold for $6900 and this card rarely comes up for auction." The seller generously listed it for a huge discount at $5299. Only one problem: the "last" SGC 10 of this card was his purchase 30 days ago for $2629. The $6900 figure is from a sale in 2008.

I rescind my post here, apparently my coffee had not kicked in this morning.

My apologies for mixing up the facts.

[Leon]

No matter what sellers (or buyers) shouldn't lie. That being said, in mind mind too, a seller can ask what they want to. There are some sellers I won't deal with and some that are so high I generally won't bother with an offer. And there is one good hobby friend, fairly large ebay seller, who gives me very close to half off on what he has for pricing of his stuff on ebay, all the time. But the adjusting of scans with s/w sucks. I have to admit I have my last E221 that looked super great in scan then when I got it, not quite as great. It was a very obvious scanner "fraud".

[Shoele$$]

Awwww....just love when people out themselves as "those" sellers

Now we all have reference points in which to avoid when it comes time to buy.

Nobody said sellers couldn't "ask what they want" or "rip off who they want" they just shouldn't be surprised when they get no business or are met with no nonsense buyers like myself and many others who have a very low tolerance for bull$hit.

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by Leon

And there is one good hobby friend, fairly large ebay seller, who gives me very close to half off on what he has for pricing of his stuff on ebay, all the time.

Found myself one of those too. I send him business constantly every month because of the massive discounts from prices listed on their Ebay/web stores. Like I said, many smart buyer know where to go and exactly who to avoid like the plague. Just too many sellers in this hobby under the false impression that buyers like to be bent over and given dry.

[Bored5000]

Of course, sellers can ask anything they want for cards they own. But my thoughts pretty much echo Shoele$$'. Even discounting the limitless number of outright frauds and scammers on Ebay, that site in particular is nothing like it used to be 10 years ago. So much of the business model of many sellers on there now seems to be hope for a sucker to come along.

It amuses me as well to see a card, often times not even a particularly rare card, appear as a BIN at three or four times what it sold for at auction just a few weeks or months earlier.

[Matthew H]

The description has been changed to remove the BS; however, I personally couldn't call it the highest grade example, if i were selling it. I guess it's not technically a lie, but it's probably the ugliest example in the hobby.

[markf31]

Matt,

I apologize, maybe the coffee had not kicked in this morning yet. I could have sworn that when I checked the serial numbers this morning that the 2008 one matched the one for sale now on Ebay.

It was my mistake.

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

Even discounting the limitless number of outright frauds and scammers on Ebay, that site in particular is nothing like it used to be 10 years ago. So much of the business model of many sellers on there now seems to be hope for a sucker to come along.

Very true and very sad to see the current state of this hobby. I long for the early days of Ebay in the late 90's and early 2000's when there were actually AUCTIONS for bidders to determine what the value of a card was. Not just a bunch of stupid, ridiculously priced BINs sitting on that site collecting dust hoping for the suckers to come by.

[npa589]

I was kind of surprised to see who the seller was for this card...

I guess it's a good thing that the discussed part of the description has been removed, but misrepresentation makes me a little sick to my stomach.


With regard to pricing, I see no reason why someone can't ask whatever they want for a card. There are a few reasons for this, one being freedom, but the other is the unpredictability of certain buyers, usually ones who aren't as involved in the hobby as some of you more knowledgeable buyers.



.

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by npa589

but the other is the unpredictability of certain buyers, usually ones who aren't as involved in the hobby as some of you more knowledgeable buyers.

Right....that's the "sucker" theory which has been discussed. Those are the sellers who are blacklisted and completely avoided when doing business

Buyers including many new to the hobby are becoming A LOT more diligent and are starting to know better with the endless supply of info on pricing that's out there. But it's true, as long as there's suckers, there will always be rip off artists waiting in the shadows for them. Every hobby has them, and some have a lot more of them than others such as ours.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

So much of the business model of many sellers on there now seems to be hope for a sucker to come along.

It amuses me as well to see a card, often times not even a particularly rare card, appear as a BIN at three or four times what it sold for at auction just a few weeks or months earlier.

This has been explained before, but I don't think anyone's listening.

But, again...."three or four times..." is excessive, but ebay policies are the reasons for most of the high BIN's, not sellers trying to find suckers. It used to be that a seller could purchase a collection based on ebay prices, then break it up on ebay with straight auctions. For a variety of reasons, that simply doesn't work any more. Yeah, yeah - I know about PWCC, Henry Yee and a few others, but I'm not going there.

The new business model is to either price an item at your bottom line BIN, or to price it much higher, with 'make an offer', which also results in the bottom line that you need in order to make a required profit.

And yes, there are ridiculous variations of the above that aren't effective and result in knowledgeable collectors getting upset, and we have all had times when we thought we had a very valuable item, but it turned out that the market didn't agree with us. We have also seen board members complain about a high-priced BIN on ebay, only to be told that the card really is worth close to the amount it's being offered at.

[sylbry]

I long for the day when sellers price their cards at what they are willing to take rather than going on a fishing trip to see what they can get.

Can't stand the "you got taken because you were not smart about it" line of reasoning. That is an admittance of knowingly taking advantage of people.

The hobby is great. Too bad there are so many people that make is suck.

[glynparson]

Shole$$, When I sold I was considered rather cheap on my prices. I would always have dealers linign up at my table to buy. If I were to sell now I know you wouldnt buy from me. I simply dont need the money more than the cards and would list stuff for a high price because i honestly wouldnt really want to sell it.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by glynparson

Shole$$, When I sold I was considered rather cheap on my prices. I would always have dealers linign up at my table to buy. If I were to sell now I know you wouldnt buy from me. I simply dont need the money more than the cards and would list stuff for a high price because i honestly wouldnt really want to sell it.

Unfortunately it seems that is the MO of many large ebay sellers. It's getting more and more difficult to wade through their "any suckers today?" pricing models....

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by sylbry

I long for the day when sellers price their cards at what they are willing to take rather than going on a fishing trip to see what they can get.

The above is exactly what I was talking about when I posted (immediately before it) "This has been explained before, but I don't think anyone's listening."

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Runscott

The above is exactly what I was talking about when I posted (immediately before it) "This has been explained before, but I don't think anyone's listening."

I understand that business model ebay is dictating. It still sucks.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Leon

I understand that business model ebay is dictating. It still sucks.

It does. Also, if you think about how ebay auctions were run 10+ years ago, our complaint was normally that starting prices were too high. No biggy - we simply didn't bid, they were eventually run at lower starting prices, and they sold for market value. What caused that situation? My guess is that generally it was unknowedgeable sellers who didn't want to get screwed, not people looking for suckers.

I think some of the high BIN's are due to the same, and also to sellers paying too much for inventory. I've carefully priced out large lots in the past, bid them almost up to retail (non-ebay), then found the lot broken up on ebay a few weeks later, with very high BIN's. Many of those cards are still doing the 30-day cycle on ebay, and will HAVE to sell at what some of you consider "sucker" prices in order for the seller to make any profit. You can blame the seller for paying too much, but he's not going to back down on a $50,000 group of cards.

A lot of dynamics going on.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Runscott

This has been explained before, but I don't think anyone's listening.

But, again...."three or four times..." is excessive, but ebay policies are the reasons for most of the high BIN's, not sellers trying to find suckers. It used to be that a seller could purchase a collection based on ebay prices, then break it up on ebay with straight auctions. For a variety of reasons, that simply doesn't work any more. Yeah, yeah - I know about PWCC, Henry Yee and a few others, but I'm not going there.

The new business model is to either price an item at your bottom line BIN, or to price it much higher, with 'make an offer', which also results in the bottom line that you need in order to make a required profit.

I understand the Ebay fee structure and the need to make a profit. I was talking about cards that will sit on Ebay forever because they are so far out of the ballpark that no one is ever going to come along and buy them.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

I understand the Ebay fee structure and need to make a profit. I was talking about cards that will sit on Ebay forever because they are so far out of the ballpark that no one is ever going to come along and buy them.

Eventually I'm going to say something that really offends someone , but it's not intentional - I'm frustrated as much as anyone. On my end it's simply a problem of finding inventory at prices low enough that I can sell on ebay.

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by glynparson

Shole$$, When I sold I was considered rather cheap on my prices. I would always have dealers linign up at my table to buy. If I were to sell now I know you wouldnt buy from me. I simply dont need the money more than the cards and would list stuff for a high price because i honestly wouldnt really want to sell it.

You're absolutely right, I probably wouldn't buy from you as I and most educated buyers prefer sellers who really want to sell. But your situation does seem to be popping up more often lately. But as always, it's only a matter of time before sellers turn from "I guess I can sell" to "I REALLY need to sell" due to finances, health problems, family problems, doctor bills etc. That "dynamic" will always be part of the equation . I always say you just need to have the patience of a sniper, eventfully you'll get your mark.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by glynparson

Shole$$, When I sold I was considered rather cheap on my prices. I would always have dealers linign up at my table to buy. If I were to sell now I know you wouldnt buy from me. I simply dont need the money more than the cards and would list stuff for a high price because i honestly wouldnt really want to sell it.

What's the point of listing something if you don't want to sell it? That seems like a waste of time for you and others interested.

[glynparson]

I'm more talking about setting up at a show which id do more to hang out with old friends than to sell. Just about anything except junk that I'd have out I'd want to probably replace or get something similar so I'd want to be able to rebuy item and make a couple bucks. I fail to see how that's looking for a sucker or trying to rip someone off?

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by Matthew H

What's the point of listing something if you don't want to sell it? That seems like a waste of time for you and others interested.

Matthew gets it! Exactly my biggest issue with certain "sellers" in this hobby. All they do is waste their time and everybody else's. Don't even list the card or contact buyers looking to buy....please just keep your cards for the time being if you truly have no interest in selling.

[wonkaticket]

There you go again Jeff getting bogged down in the details. What do you expect honesty and integrity, along with executives of auction houses not shilling and stealing millions from their clients?

[glynparson]

Is asking more than it sells for in auction unethical. Is Walmart unethical is bestbuy, or target , or whole foods, and every other single retailer in the country? Please give me a break.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Shoele$$

Matthew gets it! Exactly my biggest issue with certain "sellers" in this hobby. All they do is waste their time and everybody else's. Don't even list the card or contact buyers looking to buy....please just keep your cards for the time being if you truly have no interest in selling.

He was referring specifically to card shows. Why attack him for that? Also, not everyone's life is focused on "your time". I don't even know you, but based on what I'm reading, I think I might actually enjoy the thought that I'm wasting some of your time.

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by glynparson

I'm more talking about setting up at a show which id do more to hang out with old friends than to sell. Just about anything except junk that I'd have out I'd want to probably replace or get something similar so I'd want to be able to rebuy item and make a couple bucks. I fail to see how that's looking for a sucker or trying to rip someone off?

There is nothing wrong with making money, but there is something wrong with lying in the description of an item, that is "looking for a sucker".

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by glynparson

Is asking more than it sells for in auction unethical. Is Walmart unethical is bestbuy, or target , or whole foods, and every other single retailer in the country? Please give me a break.

There's a big difference between asking for a little profit from what one paid vs. trying to bend over an unsuspecting buyer by asking 2-3 times what it's worth. Come on now. But again, anybody can ask whatever the hell they want for whatever the hell they own.....doesn't mean they're ever gonna see it

Also bad comparison, Bestbuy, Target and Walmart all compete with each other, so competive pricing will always rule the day.

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by Runscott

He was referring specifically to card shows. Why attack him for that? Also, not everyone's life is focused on "your time". I don't even know you, but based on what I'm reading, I think I might actually enjoy the thought that I'm wasting some of your time.

And not everybody's life is focused on YOUR motives. If you don't like it move the f*ck along. Send me a PM if you're still having a hard time. And nobody is "attacking" anybody....yet.

[glynparson]

They match each other you are making the wrong comparison. I was equating those stores to the retailer. You just read what you want to dont you.

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by glynparson

They match each other you are making the wrong comparison. I was equating those stores to the retailer. You just read what you want to dont you.

Nope read it as you post it.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Shoele$$

And not everybody's life is focused on YOUR motives. If you don't like it move the f*ck along. Send me a PM if you're still having a hard time. And nobody is "attacking" anybody....yet.

Settle down child. I have no desire to communicate with you by PM, or any other way. I was simply defending a legitimate board member who you attacked for no good reason.

Leon - is the playpen area ready yet?

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Settle down child. I have no desire to communicate with you by PM, or any other way. I was simply defending a legitimate board member who you attacked for no good reason.

Leon - is the playpen area ready yet?

Since when is a 33 year old with children a "child"? So now you like to insult? Does it make you feel better about coming up "short" in a certain department? You don't need to defend anybody, everybody is a big boy here who can handle themselves. And once again, your definition of "attacking" somebody needs help. If anything your response to me was the first "attack" in the thread.

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Leon - is the playpen area ready yet?

Let's hope....because you're ready to go in it.

[Leon]

Hey guys
Let's cut the personal arguing please and get back to arguing about impotent (sic) stuff!!

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Shoele$$

Matthew gets it! Exactly my biggest issue with certain "sellers" in this hobby. All they do is waste their time and everybody else's. Don't even list the card or contact buyers looking to buy....please just keep your cards for the time being if you truly have no interest in selling.

Not looking to pick a fight here but there are two sides to every coin. Yes I agree some folks asking prices are up there. Especially when a card that is very publicly sold for say $2000 and then relisted for $10,000 on eBay. Sometimes I do see this and wonder why bother?

However not all offers are inline on the buying side either. Glenn example you contacted me about my VGEX Broad Leaf Tris Speaker asking if I would consider parting with it. Ultimately your offer price was lower than what I paid for the card two years ago.

I personally wasn’t offended or anything it’s all good. I only bring this up as an example. I can see how folks can get their feathers ruffled by what seem like insane offers be that buying or selling.

Cheers,

John

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

There you go again Jeff getting bogged down in the details. What do you expect honesty and integrity, along with executives of auction houses not shilling and stealing millions from their clients?

Millions? I have a hard time believing it could be more than $70k.

[Shoele$$]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Not looking to pick a fight here but there are two sides to every coin. Yes I agree some peoples asking prices are up there. Especially when a card that is very publicly sold for say $2000 and then relisted for $10,000 on eBay. Sometimes I do see this and wonder why bother?

However not all offers are inline on they buying side either. Glenn example you contacted me about my VGEX Broad Leaf Tris Speaker asking if I would consider parting with it. Ultimately your offer price was lower than what I paid for the card two years ago.

I personally wasn’t offended or anything it’s all good. I only bring this up as an example. I can see how folks can get their feathers ruffled by what seem like insane offers be that buying or selling.

Cheers,

John

I'm glad you brought that up John, but you did fail to mention my last offer which was over $1,000 more than what you paid. But again it's irrelevant as we chose not to deal. You're a good guy John, I'm sure down the road we may come to an agreement.

[Exhibitman]

Lying is always wrong in trying to sell a card but there is nothing wrong with trying to sell a card for a profit. To be honest, I am tired of hearing people complain about a seller askingt more for a card than they want to pay. It isn't a "rip-off" or an immoral act, it is an offer of merchandise for sale. The nice thing about the market is that if no one wants to pay for a card it won't sell and the seller can either keep it or lower the price to meet the market.

Also, with respect to scans, not all scan manipulations are meant to defraud. It can be difficult to gauge whether your scanner got an accurate read on a card because it in large part depends on your monitor settings and quality. What looks good on one monitor doesn't look right on another. That said, certain AHs and sellers are notorious for jacking up the contrast and saturation on their items--like, for example, one whose leaders are under indictment. Their images sometimes are so saturated that they look like sets from Star Trek. I don't find that particularly difficult to pick up if the card is graded--I just look at the flip because I know what the flip should look like.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Shoele$$

There's a big difference between asking for a little profit from what one paid vs. trying to bend over an unsuspecting buyer by asking 2-3 times what it's worth. Come on now.

I fail to see the problem or a big difference. This seems to be begging for the question of a reasonable profit according to who? What is reasonable if not 2-3 times it's "worth"? 10% markup? 20%? 50?

But again, anybody can ask whatever the hell they want for whatever the hell they own.....doesn't mean they're ever gonna see it

Exactly. So let the seller ask for 2-3x it's "worth". And who again is to say that the 2-3x asking price isn't WORTH it to the buyer? You?

Also bad comparison, Bestbuy, Target and Walmart all compete with each other, so competive pricing will always rule the day.

Unless it's a one-of-a-kind item, then the 2-3x asking price can be compared to other similar items. And even then, history is no guarantee of current or future "worth" or value to the buyer.

Please understand, I'm not trying to pick on you. But the idea of others trying to determine the validity of an agreement freely made between 2 parties really rubs me the wrong way. Regardless of how absurd or unreasonable it seems.