Piedmont 150 plate scratch(es) progress II

[steve B]

Finally made the puzzle out of the ones seen so far. Made a bunch of paper P150 backs, and drew the known scratches in by hand. That gives me something concrete to work with.

It's looking promising.

A bunch of pairs or blocks, nothing huge but decent so far.

Enough to now know the damaged plate was used for at least 3 different sheets.

This is almost certain.
There are scratches for some 150 only subjects, as well as many from those printed with some 350 backs.

There are also pairs with the same scratch, indicating that they were not on the same sheet.

Those pair are
Walsh /Ames hands at chest
Powell / Goode
Durham /Crawford
Durham /Oldring

That last pair leads me to believe that at least 4 sheets were involved.

Here's the blocks so far, in no particular order.
Note that Durham might be interchanged with Crawford, but I don't yet have a scan of crawford with that particular scratch.
I also have a horizontal strip of 3 I'm looking at, but I'm not positive enough yet to tape them together.

Steve B

[t206hound]

I honestly didn't think this was going to lead anywhere... but I'm digging what you've got so far. I'm impressed!

[wolf441]

Great work Steve,

I haven't found any new scratches (other than the Doyle-throwing that I posted originally), but I've been looking. This looks like a sheet might be taking shape!!

[t206hound]

And another thing, if this placement is correct, then we have at least three rows of each player on a sheet...

Again, I'm very impressed (and glad I provided a few scans)...

[g_vezina_c55]

I have a covaleski P150 with a printer line on the back.. do you want to see a scan ? This can help you in your research?

[atx840]

Excellent work so far! Please keep checking your P150 backs everyone

[steve B]

Originally Posted by g_vezina_c55

I have a covaleski P150 with a printer line on the back.. do you want to see a scan ? This can help you in your research?

Yes, any mark can help.

Steve B

[g_vezina_c55]

[steve B]

Another interesting thing is that many of the lines only extend to the edge of the design and not into the edge of the card. That seems like they made some attempts at fixing whatever happened. I have scans of a couple cards that look as if a scratch might have been almost completely erased.

Small bits of plate damage can be fixed with a special crayon that fills in the damage. It also can scuff off the ink holding areas to repair mistakes in a small area.

Steve B

[steve B]

Thanks Nelson, that's a new player. I'll have to check if it's a new scratch.

That's 43 different subjects now.

Steve B

[z28jd]

Great work Steve! I keep an eye out on ebay for any I haven't seen here before. Hope others do too

[atx840]

I do not want to derail this great thread,but I've been cataloguing the Magie error, definitely some distinguishable features from the different front and back plates.

These three all have a blue fleck on the left border and lower left as well as the green background is shifted slightly down on the fronts.

[teetwoohsix]

Wow, nice work Steve !! Very impressive.

Good eye on those Magie cards Chris.

Sincerely, clayton

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

I don't see the scratch. Can one of you explain it to me?

[steve B]

The scan above may not show it on some monitors.

This one should be a bit clearer. One of the Cobb bat on cards.



The plates have a surface that retains water and the image is put on with a medium that repels water but would hold oil. When the surface gets scratched the scratch can hold some ink and will usually print.

You can actually make a lithograph using a piece of paper,crayon, a roller and some oily ink. Not a good or detailed lithograph, but something.

Steve B

[AndyG09]

Steve,

I have a Keeler with bat that I will dig out this weekend. A P 150 with a decent scratch on it. Great work on this project.

Best,

Andy

[wonkaticket]

Chris, good eye I pointed this out to a friend not long ago you will also notice the bleed into the design on the back, as well as the bleed into the "o" and "0"'s in the text in the factory line section on the bottom.

I've owned 2 Magies one had this the other did not, I have seen a few others as well with the back like the above.

John

[Jantz]

Steve

Interesting thread!

I'll keep the scans coming if you want me to. Heres a few more.

Durham & Lake NY


Jantz

[T206Collector]

The Seymour and Criss pairing is pretty amazing.

I have to say that I find this MUCH more persuasive than theories of sheets. It is almost like the scratched plate is the T206 Rosetta Stone!

I will forever now be obsessed with finding P150s with scratched on them. If only I had paid more attention when I built my Momster a few years ago. The SGC 10 Magie above was once mine, and I never even bothered to look at the back much. Was too focused on the "i"

Great work! Please keep it up!

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Have there been any known plates to exist that have survived?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Jantz

Steve

Interesting thread!

I'll keep the scans coming if you want me to. Heres a few more.

Durham & Lake NY


Jantz

Thanks Jantz,

I have both of those, but those are better scans. Keep em coming, even duplicates are good.

Front scans would also be a bit of help. The next step is comparing fronts to see if they're always the same for each back. Different ones would show the same subject being in the same spot on more than one sheet. That's obviously a much bigger project.

Steve B

[steve B]

Originally Posted by atx840

I do not want to derail this great thread,but I've been cataloguing the Magie error, definitely some distinguishable features from the different front and back plates.

These three all have a blue fleck on the left border and lower left as well as the green background is shifted slightly down on the fronts.

Not a derailment at all.

The plate would have printed cards before getting scratched, and consistent marks like those would carry over to the scratched plate. If they don't we'll know there was more than one P150 back plate. If they do, it's another bit of info.

I was looking at Magie since it has just the one back and is uncommon enough that it's almost certain to have only been on one sheet.

A nice find would be a Magee with the same back as those three.

Steve B

[steve B]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Have there been any known plates to exist that have survived?

Not for T206. If there were any survivors we'd have fewer discussions about sheet size. And probably more about exact sheet layouts.

The plates were most likely the stone versions, which normally got resurfaced and reused as soon as the job was done or they became too worn.


Steve B

[atx840]

Similar to this Steve?

[Pat R]

Here are a couple of scans that I think help support Steves theory that
Cobb and Durham were next to each other on a sheet. Two different scans
of Cobb and durham that seem to line up and a Durham that might fit in
under the one next to Cobb.

[t206hound]

Had a moment so looked for Durham P150s. Found one with a different scratch on ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/300855689268

[steve B]

Originally Posted by atx840

Similar to this Steve?

Yes, very similar. That one was probably used to make the transfers to lay out the plates for the stuff on it. It's amazing it survived at all. There are a few available on Ebay with non-card content.

Steve B

[steve B]

Originally Posted by t206hound

Had a moment so looked for Durham P150s. Found one with a different scratch on ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/300855689268

That Durham with the long vertical scratch does look like it belongs under the one on the block I had. And the scan blown up a bit shows it angling farther left at the very bottom, which puts it right where the ones shown above start. For some reaon I hadn't drawn the vertical one even though I had a scan.

Pat sent me a message about his efforts and I'm really impressed. He's been working on the same thing, and has found a lot more scans of different marks. I'm happy this is becoming a nice collective effort. I'm guessing if I was doing it alone it might take years if not decades to get really solid results.

Off to tape up the Durham bits

Steve B

[Big Six]

I have nothing to add but my appreciation for the effort you and others are putting in to this...thinking we need some kind of Nobel Prize for these kinds of things!!! Great work...Matt

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Here are a couple of scans that I think help support Steves theory that
Cobb and Durham were next to each other on a sheet. Two different scans
of Cobb and durham that seem to line up and a Durham that might fit in
under the one next to Cobb.

Thanks Pat! That seems to really fit. I can't wait to see more scans. This is getting exciting. The way that one hooks left right at the bottom makes it match the one Jantz and t206hound have shown.

That one also appears on Oldring. So it might be Oldring next to Cobb. But I'll go with Durham for now.

Steve B

[wolf441]

Here are the scans of Doyle again, but they don't seem to line up with any of the cards in the pattern so far. The scratch seems to be going in the wrong direction...

[Pat R]

Steve I don't know if you have this one but it has marks going in three
different directions. It is Stone (I have the card if you need a front scan)

[atx840]

Nice Pat, another Stone with a scratch that aligns above.

[Pat R]

Thanks Chris here is the other Stone that goes with it.

[atx840]

Ha, I meant to post the above one, these seem to come together quite nicely.

Not a great scan but here is a Kleinow with bat pairing.

[toppcat]

The way the scratches present at the top of this thread's array, it looks like some type of tool or instrument may have been dropped onto a "plate", something that was like a tic tac toe square.

[edhans]

The third card down on the far left of this scan is a Donohue.

http://t206.monkberry.com/webpics/t206-4rev.jpg

[Pat R]

One more pair Nicholls.

[steve B]

That's some great stuff! The Stone with 3 different angles explains why so few of the ones I have with the mark up to the right match up.


I've been trying to figure out what happened. One thought is that the scratch was deliberate maybe to mark the stone for resurfacing. I think that's unlikely now.

The other thought was that there was a bit of stone or other debris when another was slid on top of it in storage. Schulte has a scratch that seems the sort of zig zag you'd get from that.

Steve B

[steve B]

Originally Posted by edhans

The third card down on the far left of this scan is a Donohue.

http://t206.monkberry.com/webpics/t206-4rev.jpg

Neat. I didn't have a scan that nice of that one.

What card is one up and one to the right? It's a 350, but it's got a couple identifiable marks.

Steve B

[atx840]

Possible connection? Camnitz (Link)

Not sure the Ball lines up with Crawford as the card needs to come down a bit.

[Pat R]

Chris, this is the one I had next to ball, see if this one lines up better.

[t206fix]

Sorry about the scan quality, guys - I have a terrible scanner.

Bobby Wallace Portrait - mark runs right through the border, up through Y and T in quality, and then below "of" and stops at the o. Additional small mark just on the border south of the t in Piedmont (hard to see in this scan).

Maybe it's time for a new scanner unless someone knows a trick to make my HP work better!

[atx840]

It's highly likely that, as Steve mentioned, several players will have the same back damage showing, it may not be these specific players on a sheet.

[edhans]

Originally Posted by steve B

What card is one up and one to the right? It's a 350, but it's got a couple identifiable marks.

Steve B

It's a Dineen.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by atx840

It's highly likely that, as Steve mentioned, several players will have the same back damage showing, it may not be these specific players on a sheet.

That's really cool. Looks like stuff is coming together.

I don't think the block with Cobb belongs there. The upper Cobb has a left-right line crossing just at the top. so far up a card cut with a small upper border won't show it.

The two left right scratches seem to have very different angles. The upper Cobb is the shallower of the two. I'm thinking it belongs lower and at least two rows to the right of the other block.

Steve B

[Troy Kirk]

Very nice work on this. I checked my cards and found two with lines on the back.

[nolemmings]

Don't know if you have this Niles (no longer mine):
[IMG][/IMG]

[AndyG09]

Not sure if I have more, but this is the one I remembered having.

Good luck, Steve!

Best,

ag

[z28jd]

On ebay right now

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206...721c43b&_uhb=1