Question about T206 history

[cubsfan-budman]

So, I've been reading Net54 for roughly 6 months. After checking out that thread about usage statistics on this site, I think that I probably have a similar usage profile to many of you on here...Very few threads go unread by me each day. So anyway, please forgive me if this question has been addressed before.

I read the recent resuscitated post regarding Joe Jackson's exclusion in the T206 set, Ted's recent post about possible sheet layout and another recent post about what should and should not be considered T206. Not only is the research and breadth of knowledge about these things impressive, the subjects themselves are really cool to consider in the first place.

Its obvious to me that a good portion of the interest in the T206 set is due to some of these mysteries behind the set itself.

The question that I have is:

Why are there so many mysteries in relation to this set in the first place?

I looked up Jefferson Burdick. He was born in 1900 and began collecting sometime around the age of 10. He only lived to 63 years old, but he was obviously viewed as an expert in his middle age. While Jefferson Burdick was the collector who has retained the most esteem today, there were other collectors of his caliber that were active in his day and even before.

Did they not have access to employees of American Lithographic during their collecting days? The way I imagine it, the printers, artists, designers, etc. would all have been in their 40s - 80s in the mid 20th century.

So, given their presumed access to the sources of the "truth" about these facets of the T206 set, why are there still so many unknowns?

Thanks for any insight!

Christian

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by cubsfan-budman

Did they not have access to employees of American Lithographic during their collecting days? The way I imagine it, the printers, artists, designers, etc. would all have been in their 40s - 80s in the mid 20th century.

So, given their presumed access to the sources of the "truth" about these facets of the T206 set, why are there still so many unknowns?

Thanks for any insight!

Christian

Christian, that's a very good question that many of us have wondered. Most people talk about their jobs at least a little. Printing cards must have been incredibly boring work, given that none of those involved seemed to pass any information to friends or family.

[wolf441]

It’s too bad that there isn’t a way to track down the names of employees/executives at the American Lithographic Company from 1909 through 1911. You would have to think that there is at least some paperwork pertaining to the creation and distribution of the T206 cards floating around among family possessions.

[steve B]

It's pretty unlikely there would be much information saved by a company employee. At the time the card weren't a big deal, just another job, one of thousands ALC would have done in any given year. Once the company records were disposed of there wouldn't be much remaining.

There are a few things that might have been saved, like the original art. But even then, the artists might have been more proud of a cigar box label they did from scratch than what was basically colorizing a photo and adding a background. It's possible it wasn't even done by the best artists.

Out of a couple hundred jobs done at the shop I worked for while I was there I only recall anything about maybe 10-20 of them, and only specific details about 4-5 that I could connect with the job. Most I know what I did but have forgotten what job it was, others I recall the job but either I didn't work on it or don't remember what I did. Asking an ALC employee in 1940 probably would have had the same result.

It's also entirely possible the collectors of the day didn't really think much about sheet layouts. T206 was a common set and still is. Try finding out about the exact sheet layout of a recent set where there are sheets readily available. What were the doubleprints in 1981 Topps? And which rows were they in?
which cards were on the A and B sheets for 1991 Topps?
Neither of those is really all that easy to find, and they're both very recent and produced in enormous quantity. Even the 3 different cuttings of 88 Score that were covered well in the hobby press have been largely forgotten.

Steve B

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by steve B

There are a few things that might have been saved, like the original art.
Steve B

Steve, what would the 'original art' have looked like? None of it has ever surfaced, so I always figured that, other than proofs, everything else in the process was time-sensitive. Of course, the type 3 Coupons kind of destroy that theory...don't they?

[wolf441]

What about the actual printing plates? Would they have been destroyed once the production run was completed? I'm not familiar with the printing process in general, so I'm not even sure of what material these plates would have been made out of?

Thanks for all of the info to everyone who contributes to these types of threads!

[EvilKing00]

We also need to remember the time and place. These people who made / printed these cards, were working for no money in a job they probably didnt like and had NO CLUE what they were printing that was put in cigarette packs for free would be a collectors item and have historic value.

To them it was just the toy that comes in a happy meal.

[cubsfan-budman]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

We also need to remember the time and place. These people who made / printed these cards, were working for no money in a job they probably didnt like and had NO CLUE what they were printing that was put in cigarette packs for free would be a collectors item and have historic value.

To them it was just the toy that comes in a happy meal.

But what about the guy that chose the players to be represented? This had to have been important to someone at American Litho or at the tobacco companies...

Anyhow, thanks for the responses so far!

[atx840]

I recently spoke with a relative of J.P. Knapp. Here are some printing floor photos from they think the 30-40's after Knapp sold ALC and moved the gravure printing devision to a new building. Oh to see the 1909-12 equivalent.

[cubsfan-budman]

Originally Posted by atx840

I recently spoke with a relative of J.P. Knapp. Here are some printing floor photos from they think the 30-40's after Knapp sold ALC and moved the gravure printing devision to a new building. Oh to see the 1909-12 equivalent.

not sure what Steve B is talking about...that job looks amazing!

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by cubsfan-budman

But what about the guy that chose the players to be represented? This had to have been important to someone at American Litho or at the tobacco companies...

Anyhow, thanks for the responses so far!

Yep, and they also had to get the players to sign an agreement of some sort. Odd how much of the history simply disappeared.

[GasHouseGang]

Companies clean out their files and throw things away. You see it all the time on Antiques Roadshow. Someone will come in with something that was being tossed out where they work, and no one realized these things have any value. I remember reading in SCD years ago, how someone around where Topps printing was done, found the aluminum printing sheets inside of the walls of his house. They apparently had been pulled out of the trash and had been used as building material for parts of the wall.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Yep, and they also had to get the players to sign an agreement of some sort. Odd how much of the history simply disappeared.

It's not lost, just yet to be found.

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

It's not lost, just yet to be found.

I wonder. Let us not forget that most homes and businesses were heated with stoves and furnaces at that time. I fear that most of the paperwork may have taking the nip ot of a winter's morn.

[markf31]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Yep, and they also had to get the players to sign an agreement of some sort. Odd how much of the history simply disappeared.

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

It's not lost, just yet to be found.

Let's not forget, it was still almost 50 years after the printing of T206s that Sy Berger supposedly dumped thousands of unsold 1952 Topps cards into the Hudson river because he couldn’t think of anything better to do with them. So even a company, who’s business was baseball cards, saw them as disposal and and almost worthless property 50 years later. I can’t imagine ALC or American Tobacco Company saw much value in retaining anything pertaining to cards.

[T206Collector]

I've often seen it written here that tons of recycled paper and metal were used in the war efforts of WWI and WWII. Nobody would have thought to preserve the card machines or paper related thereto during these time periods.

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by Bocabirdman

I wonder. Let us not forget that most homes and businesses were heated with stoves and furnaces at that time. I fear that most of the paperwork may have taking the nip ot of a winter's morn.

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I've often seen it written here that tons of recycled paper and metal were used in the war efforts of WWI and WWII. Nobody would have thought to preserve the card machines or paper related thereto during these time periods.

If you start adding up all of the possible reasons for stuff to not have survived, the fact that as much Early Twentieth Century tobacco-related stuff exists today is remarkable

[steve B]

Originally Posted by cubsfan-budman

not sure what Steve B is talking about...that job looks amazing!

It is amazing. But when it's something you do every day it's like any other job. I've been lucky to have a number of jobs where I didn't just do the same thing all day.

The pictures shown are a different process. Rotogravure, which printed all those brown photo sections in the newspapers from the 20's into probably the 60's. Lots of great sports content in some of those.

Steve B

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Steve, what would the 'original art' have looked like? None of it has ever surfaced, so I always figured that, other than proofs, everything else in the process was time-sensitive. Of course, the type 3 Coupons kind of destroy that theory...don't they?

At a minimum?

there would have been the original photo, probably whited out around the player.
A halftone negative of the player.
A series of painted pieces, possibly on acetate of each color.
Negatives of those, some just negatives, some halftone.
(The more modern process took photos through differentfilters, to get the cymk halftones.)

Those would have been used to make a stone master for each subject and color that they would then use to print transfers. Basically the single color image in a tarlike ink printed onto tissue paper.
(The more modern process uses the negatives to produce the plate directly-the current stuff is direct from computer to press with the plates beng made on the press itself.)

Those transfers would be used to lay out the plates -Either metal plates or stones. One for each color.

Stuff like Nodgrass, Dopner, and the other caption varieties are caused by the transfer not transfering properly.

What would have been saved within the company would have been the photos, halftones and the original art wether on acetete or usually illustration board. They might have retained extra transfers if any were made.

So to print the T213s of all kinds all they needed was the original art. New negatives and transfers could be made at any time. And for T213-2 and 3 they obviously made new masters for blue and brown since the captions were in blue rather than brown. I don't have any T213-3 to compare and see if they made new masters for all the colors. I think the -1 were from the same masters and -2 used the same masters for all but brown and blue.

How long they would have saved the original art is variable. It could have stayed in the company files for decades, the negatives would have been kept for maybe a few years. An exception would be an ongoing job like a customer ordering the same printed form for several years.

Some customers want the original art back. I did a drawing of my high school for the yearbook and got the original back -Cut in half ! Since they'd used it on the pasteup for two pages. (lazy, we'd have made a big negative and cut that in half leaving the art intact. But the yearbook company was high volume and we were higher quality. ) The next year the shop I worked for made a few prints from the same art including the years the school had been under renovation. When they had the official re-opening all the staff got one plus the dignitaries got one on nicer paper. Somewhere I still have a couple hundred of them. Yes, official re-opening, we went to school through the renovation. Including a math class held over the pile driver driving piles for the elevator shaft.

Steve B

[steve B]

Originally Posted by wolf441

What about the actual printing plates? Would they have been destroyed once the production run was completed? I'm not familiar with the printing process in general, so I'm not even sure of what material these plates would have been made out of?

Thanks for all of the info to everyone who contributes to these types of threads!

There were two types in use at the time.

The older process used stones, actual special limestone blocks usually from Germany. Figure sheet plus maybe 4-6 inches in size and about 3-4 inches thick. Unless the job was being printed constantly these were resurfaced after the job was done since they were expensive, and took up a lot of room.

The other was the new metal plates. Usually aluminum surfaced with a limestone like surface that would hold water.
Those could be saved, but usually weren't.
Ours went in a stack to be recycled. The small ones made really great dustpans. The large ones were good for stuff like a doghouse roof or new flashing over the gutters...........You just had to remember that like the foil hat shiny side out worked best.

Steve B

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by steve B

There were two types in use at the time.

The older process used stones, actual special limestone blocks usually from Germany. Figure sheet plus maybe 4-6 inches in size and about 3-4 inches thick. Unless the job was being printed constantly these were resurfaced after the job was done since they were expensive, and took up a lot of room.

The other was the new metal plates. Usually aluminum surfaced with a limestone like surface that would hold water.
Those could be saved, but usually weren't.
Ours went in a stack to be recycled. The small ones made really great dustpans. The large ones were good for stuff like a doghouse roof or new flashing over the gutters...........You just had to remember that like the foil hat shiny side out worked best.

Steve B

Thanks so much for this info Steve! I've always wondered when reading about Plank possibly being so rare because of a damaged plate. Your posts has been extremely informative!

[Runscott]

Thanks Steve - it's always a real pleasure to read your posts about the printing process!