Please help, fake or real Babe Ruth

[gomer183]

There was a thread some time ago about a Babe Ruth candy wrapper. Well I just came across one and couldn't help myself from buying it. I bought it from a gentleman in his sixties, he stated that he bought from an estate auction of an avid baseball collector about 20-30 years ago. There were also tobacco cards at this auction. I am unable to find someone to authenticate it. Can someone please help me.

[Leon]

I can't be positive from a scan as these are sort of tough to tell. I have owned several and I would say there is a 90%+ chance yours is good. From the scan I think it is. I am sure mine is real so you can compare....

[ctownboy]

I have never owned one of these wrappers but aren't they made of wax paper?

Why i ask is because ACOFIND (an eBay seller who sells reproductions and who was discussed in another thread earlier in the week) often lists these Babe Ruth wrappers (which he says he bought at an estate sale) and they are made of regular paper.

David

[prewarsports]

I dont think it is good. Leons is clearly real (color contrast between the light wax paper and the dark ink images of the graphics) where yours is sort of brown. I tell people to look at the borders where it should be creamy white, the fakes are all aged too much in general.

I bet I have seen (ebay/in person/auction catalogs) 300 of these in the last 10 years and only 2 or 3 have been real, they are basically (with a few exceptions) all fake which is very unfortunate because they are such beautiful items.

Just my opinion, but these are some of the most faked items in the hobby besides Fro-Joy Ruth cards.

BEST WAY TO TELL is to look at the creases on the white border. If it is real wax paper the crease will actually break the wax and create a white line (see Leons) but if it is printed on paper and made to look real the crease will just be a paper crease and not change the color of the item. If that makes sense to people?

Rhys

[Leon]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

I dont think it is good. Leons is clearly real (color contrast between the light wax paper and the dark ink images of the graphics) where yours is sort of brown. I tell people to look at the borders where it should be creamy white, the fakes are all aged too much in general.

I bet I have seen (ebay/in person/auction catalogs) 300 of these in the last 10 years and only 2 or 3 have been real, they are basically (with a few exceptions) all fake which is very unfortunate because they are such beautiful items.

Just my opinion, but these are some of the most faked items in the hobby besides Fro-Joy Ruth cards.

BEST WAY TO TELL is to look at the creases on the white border. If it is real wax paper the crease will actually break the wax and create a white line (see Leons) but if it is printed on paper and made to look real the crease will just be a paper crease and not change the color of the item. If that makes sense to people?

Rhys

Now that you mention it Rhys, you are probably correct. I was really only looking at the photo which is not grainy. The paper should be wax type paper. I have a bit of trouble telling these from scans.......I would take your opinion over mine on this. Now if we had them in person...I think our footing would be more equal .

I didn't care for the staining on the top example but I didn't weight it enough because I focused on the photo part too much.

[prewarsports]

It is hard to tell anything from a scan, but I got taken on one of these fakes when they first popped up in the market in about 2004 and knew someone with a real one to compare it to. As a side note, these still pop up in major auctions and grading companies slab them still (or at least they did) so nobody should feel bad about getting fooled on one of these. I would just stay away from them unless you are 100% positive AND you get a guaranteed from the seller!

[gomer183]

I forgot to mention, the paper does feel like wax paper. I appreciate all of your replies.............I just wish there was a way of getting it authenticated and graded. It makes a really great addition to my Yankees collection.

[gomer183]

Here's a scan of the back.............

[BrandonG]

This may just be coincidence, but has anyone else noticed that the "H" in George H. Ruth on Leon's example and this one is almost exactly the same? Like if it were scanned and couldn't be reprinted because the H was scratched out on the original?

Could be nothing, just thought it was odd.

[BrandonG]

After I read my post I need to mention that in no way was I saying that Leon had any part of that if it were a scan of his original. We all know what people can do now days with sample pictures from the internet.

[PhilNap]

I've always believed the obliterated "H" was a telltale sign of a fake. It just seems that 99% of those offered for sale have that same flaw.

[ctownboy]

Maybe it IS the same wrapper.

If you will notice, not only does the original poster's wrapper have the "H" scratched out (like Leon's wrapper does) but under the brown stain you can also see the number "7" (like Leon's wrapper has) in the same spot.

I quickly searched the web and looked for Babe Ruth Home Run candy wrappers and only these two wrappers have the number "7" on them.

Maybe some one is trying to have a little fun with the board.....

Not accusing anyone of anything but just bringing it up for discussion.

David

[jdmeltz]

The creases on the two wrappers are very different.

[John V]

Are there any examples with a good H? Maybe the mangled H was an original printing flaw???

[gomer183]

Is it possible that the "H" was a weak spot due to the wrapping of the candy bar and the positioning of the card inside???

Just asking......

Does anyone know of where I could possibly send this wrapper...........

[Leon]

I don't think this is a farce first of all. Second of all I went and checked out other wrappers on the net. The ones I saw did have the 7 on them.

To the original poster. I am 100% sure I can tell in person, within 30 seconds, if it is real or not. Like Rhys said though, and I agree with, if it is not on wax type paper it is not real. If you want to send it to someone to see I will be happy to take a look at it. Email me at leonl@flash.net if you want my address and I will give it to you and you can send it on over....best regards

[ctownboy]

Sorry if I sounded cynical (I am) or accusatory (didn't mean to come off that way) but I have seen WAAAAAY to many scam artists try waaay too many things over the last few years and wouldn't put it past one to make a copy of something and then have the balls to come on the board to see if they could get people to vouch for its authenticity.

All the wrappers I saw listed on the web, from reputable sources, didn't have the number "7" on them. I just thought it odd that both wrappers shown had the same characteristics as one another but other wrappers didn't.

David

[Bugsy]

REA had a nice example a few years ago (has the 7):

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/...21.html#photos

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

Sorry if I sounded cynical (I am) or accusatory (didn't mean to come off that way) but I have seen WAAAAAY to many scam artists try waaay too many things over the last few years and wouldn't put it past one to make a copy of something and then have the balls to come on the board to see if they could get people to vouch for its authenticity.

All the wrappers I saw listed on the web, from reputable sources, didn't have the number "7" on them. I just thought it odd that both wrappers shown had the same characteristics as one another but other wrappers didn't.

David

Hey David
It never hurts to be a bit suspicious. I can appreciate that. The original poster has emailed me and is going to send the wrapper to me. I saw 3-5 wrappers on the net and all of them had the 7 on them. I can only guess that if you saw some without the 7 they were either trimmed or very slightly different. best regards

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by Bugsy

REA had a nice example a few years ago (has the 7):

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/...21.html#photos

It also has a perfect 'H'. I admit, when I first looked at these I wondered if the first was a copy of the Leon's. If someone finds more examples of the fakes, I wonder if they all have this? Maybe Leon can trace the chain back and see if someone unscrupulous once owned his.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

[Bugsy]

Could there be a less sinister explanation for the H? I bought this one from Leon and it also has the H. damage (I have never questioned its authenticity). I know that there are a lot of fakes out there, but I also have to wonder if there was a production flaw or, according to the REA write-up, many of these came from the same find. If there were stored together, they could have been damaged in a similar way. Any thoughts?

[HBroll]

I bought this Ruth candy wrapper about 8 years ago and it is made out of wax type paper. It is also missing the "H" like the others except for the one in the REA auction.

[BrandonG]

Something is smelling fishy here. This is way too much of a coincidence. has anyone ever seen one actually wrapped around the candy? I just think it's too precise of a location for the size of the wrapper, for the candy to wear it down in the same spot. If the original was missing the H, all copies would too, it's easy to wear it down more or less on each of them differently so they look slightly different. As for a comment made about wrinkle lines being different, that wouldn't matter if you are aging it by creasing them differently.

Just an outside perspective, I am nowhere near an expert in this area, but I don't think print wax paper is impossible to find.

[PhilNap]

Here's another. "H" intact but no "7"" The alignment of the lettering on this one seems to match the REA example while the lettering on the others seem to align differently. Could there have been different printings with the typesets aligned differently?

[PhilNap]

Here's an example of what I mean by the different print alignment. Not saying one version is real and the other is fake. I wish I knew. It's something I have wondered about for a while.

[Bilko G]

that is very interesting philnap

[gomer183]

After the new years holiday, I'm sending the wrapper to Mr. Luckey to get his honest opinion. I've talked with REA and they wanted me to send the scans to them for someone to look at. By no means am I a scam artist. I am hoping that I didn't get scammed. I took a chance at purchasing this item and I am hoping that it's legit and that I can pass it down to my daughter. I appreciate all the feedback from everyone.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Bilko G

that is very interesting philnap

I agree with Bilko. Outstanding detective work Phil!

[Leon]

I am not positive about the whole issue. I have always thought the wrappers that are on wax paper are good. OF course I stand behind anything I sell, for authenticity, for life. I do find it perplexing concerning the hole in the same place and the slanted format shown above. The printing on my current one is very sharp too, not like you normally see in knock-off items. If the wrapper I own now is a fake then that is one very good scam. It's not like someone was going to make a mint off of these even if they aren't good. The one I sold I am sure wasn't more than $200 as well as it's replacement/upgrade was probably in that range or less. There is always the chance that someone found a way to duplicate these just as the originals were made....maybe a machine from the 1920's producing them more recently? Interesting stuff....

[HBroll]

Here is a close up of my wrapper of the missing "H". As you can see, it looks like the "H" was there at one time but was worn away for some reason. This is getting very very interesting.
Also great detective work Phil Nap on the slant of the text.

[PhilNap]

Originally Posted by gomer183

After the new years holiday, I'm sending the wrapper to Mr. Luckey to get his honest opinion. I've talked with REA and they wanted me to send the scans to them for someone to look at. By no means am I a scam artist. I am hoping that I didn't get scammed. I took a chance at purchasing this item and I am hoping that it's legit and that I can pass it down to my daughter. I appreciate all the feedback from everyone.

I'd be curious to see what Lifson has to say. Maybe he can shed some light on these.

[martin neal]

A friend of mine bought both the wrapper and the 6 Ruth cards from a person in Florida about 6 years ago. After posting on Net 54, it was decided that they were fake (definately the cards). The wrapper was on wax paper and I was amazed at what some scammers would do to sell a fake. Watch out for the cards in TPG holders as well as another friend and board member purchased one in which the original was removed and one of the fake cards was inserted into the cracked holder.
On this wrapper , it appears that the jackass tried to remove the "7" and the damaged "H".

[HistoricNewspapers]

What was the shape of the candy inside?

Would there be creases in a similar spot if they were all folded around the same candy?

Or were these non used wrappers that were found flat and just worn heavily?

[Bugsy]

Another damaged H.

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...archvalue=ruth bar&page=0&sortby=0&displayby=2&lotsperpage=50&category=1&seo=1928-Babe-Ruth-%22Ruth

[7nohitter]

good catch

[steve B]

The fonts are also slightly different. On one the crossbar of the Hs in most of the words are in the center, while the other verion the crossbars are near the top of the letter.

Steve B

[smulvihill]

2 more from heritage auctions

http://historical.ha.com/c/item.zx?s...083&lotNo=3133

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleN...28&lotNo=43164

[PhilNap]

Originally Posted by gomer183

After the new years holiday, I'm sending the wrapper to Mr. Luckey to get his honest opinion. I've talked with REA and they wanted me to send the scans to them for someone to look at. By no means am I a scam artist. I am hoping that I didn't get scammed. I took a chance at purchasing this item and I am hoping that it's legit and that I can pass it down to my daughter. I appreciate all the feedback from everyone.

Any follow up on REA's opinion based on the scan you sent them?

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by Bugsy

Another damaged H.

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...archvalue=ruth bar&page=0&sortby=0&displayby=2&lotsperpage=50&category=1&seo=1928-Babe-Ruth-%22Ruth

Interesting that this was withdrawn.

[bjcunningham]

Does Leon's wrapper have a - "baseball." - at the end of the sentence, but the other's don't? Or is that just the scans? Just curious.

[PhilNap]

With the two wrappers in the current SCP auction (one with the all too common obscured middle initial "H" and one with the "H" intact), it has caused me to look even closer at these wrappers.

It seems that all of the wrappers with the obscured "H" have a much sharper font style. I would describe it as more of a modern computer generated font. This is most pronounced in the text below the Babe's image where it reads "Babe Ruth's Own Candy". And upon closer look, it is evident in all of the text (both in the area with the orange background and in the white border). The wrappers with the "H" have more of a rounded hand drawn style of text. I don't know if this version has been reproduced but in my opinion the missing "H" and the sharper font are tell tale signs to stay away.

[Mr. Zipper]

Also note that in lot 754, the quote marks around Babe Ruth's (at top of label) are of different style and spacing relative to the letters. The same with the apostrophe.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

Also note that in lot 754, the quote marks around Babe Ruth's (at top of label) are of different style and spacing relative to the letters. The same with the apostrophe.

That is interesting. If the wrapper is a reprint, there are two possibilities - either it is a scan/photo copy of an original, or someone created new artwork and layout and printed from that. With your discovery, either one of those possibilities seems to be a bit challenged. Because the quotation mark is different, it would seem impossible for it to be a photo copy, and it would indicate someone made a new layout and tried to make it as close to the real thing as possible. The challenge on that side is that the H is obscured, which wouldn't happen if someone was printing off of a fresh layout. That leaves two more likely possibilities in my mind - either there were two original layouts for the wrapper, or someone created a new layout recently and that layout was copied from a copy where the H was obscured.

[PhilNap]

Originally Posted by Matt

That is interesting. If the wrapper is a reprint, there are two possibilities - either it is a scan/photo copy of an original, or someone created new artwork and layout and printed from that. With your discovery, either one of those possibilities seems to be a bit challenged. Because the quotation mark is different, it would seem impossible for it to be a photo copy, and it would indicate someone made a new layout and tried to make it as close to the real thing as possible. The challenge on that side is that the H is obscured, which wouldn't happen if someone was printing off of a fresh layout. That leaves two more likely possibilities in my mind - either there were two original layouts for the wrapper, or someone created a new layout recently and that layout was copied from a copy where the H was obscured.

Or the H was intentionally obscured as part of the effort to artificially age the new creation.

[Bugsy]

I posted a photo of mine earlier (damaged H.). Anyway, I don't know why I didn't think of it before, but I put it under a black light last night. Modern paper illuminates under a black light because of chemicals used in the manufacturing process, while paper from the 1920s should not. I put an early postcard with the similar coloring beside the wrapper to show the difference.

Not only does the wrapper illuminate under the light, look at the creases. They are even brighter. If the wax, or whatever coating is on the paper, were stripped away, I am sure this sucker would really light up under a black light.

What do you guys think of this? Does this pretty much guarantee that this is a fake?

Thanks.

Chris

BTW, the whole wrapper illuminated under black lighting, but my camera didn't capture it well. No flash in a dark room with a cheap camera made it a little tricky.

[smotan_02]

Amazing, great work. That would be a good practice for the auction house.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by PhilNap

Or the H was intentionally obscured as part of the effort to artificially age the new creation.

That's the same as the last option I gave - you're just suggesting intent.

[perezfan]

Since SCP currently has both types in their possession, it would be nice if they would "Blacklight" them (side by side). It would be interesting to see the comparison.

But I supose that's probably too much to ask...

[PhilNap]

Here's mine under blacklight with a 1928 Exhibits card and a modern 3x5.

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by Bugsy

I posted a photo of mine earlier (damaged H.). Anyway, I don't know why I didn't think of it before, but I put it under a black light last night. Modern paper illuminates under a black light because of chemicals used in the manufacturing process, while paper from the 1920s should not. I put an early postcard with the similar coloring beside the wrapper to show the difference.

Not only does the wrapper illuminate under the light, look at the creases. They are even brighter. If the wax, or whatever coating is on the paper, were stripped away, I am sure this sucker would really light up under a black light.

What do you guys think of this? Does this pretty much guarantee that this is a fake?

Thanks.

Chris

BTW, the whole wrapper illuminated under black lighting, but my camera didn't capture it well. No flash in a dark room with a cheap camera made it a little tricky.

Chris, is that the one you bought from Leon??