My impromptu chat with Joe O.

[Leon]

So this was approximately my 10th-12th National and I have seen Joe Orlando walking around at many of them. He seems very interested in his companies success and is around their booths much of the time. I am quite sure he has known about Net54baseball for years and I am sure he has heard my name on more than a few occasions, but I had never met him. I would be very surprised if he hasn't read the board and wouldn't be surprised if he reads it regularly. I would if I were him. I also helped him and his assistant catch a person that sent me an email while impersonating him. That person admitted it under oath, I am told. At any rate I know many of the issues surrounding PSA and so forth. They are a large company and when you are grading 100k+ cards a month I am sure it's impossible to get every one correct. Also, one of our board members had an issue with PSA and took them to court and won. So, it's not been all roses for Joe and PSA, concerning Net54baseball. That being said I have never had anything against PSA or Joe. I have my preferences for grading companies but hey, It's America.

At this last National I saw Joe walking rather briskly down an aisle so I figured it was a good enough time to meet him. I said, "excuse me Joe, I just want to meet you" and introduced myself. He was very polite and we probably spoke for 10-15 minutes. I truly think he wants what is best for the hobby and runs as good of a ship as can be run, given the circumstances surrounding the human objectivity in grading. I think he would like to help clean up the hobby and can't stand the fraud, deceit and scamming that goes on. In most of these respects he and I feel exactly the same way. I just want to give a shout out to him for taking the time to get to know me and chat with me, when he was obviously on his way going somewhere else. I let him know if I can ever be of help, just let me know. My guess is that would be a reciprocated gesture. Joe seems like a nice guy and a true hobbyist. best regards

[bobbyw8469]

Good post Leon.

[murcerfan]

"dealer grades" for everybody!

YA-FA-FA-HOOOOO!

[TONY-III]

I personally have had several opportunites to work with Joe Orlando and I also find him to be a true hobbyist and an extremely nice person. Joe is very thoughtful about the way he conducts himself and runs his business. He is always open to suggestions and new ideas. He also doesn't run from problems when they are presented to him. I know this first-hand from my years of collecting my own personal items and now from a business standpoint with my new company. From my experience, he is very approachable and will do anything he can to help a fellow collector. His knowledge is extensive and he is more than willing to share it when asked.

As far as PSA authentication/grading goes, I really don't think I would have spent as much money on my personal collection without PSA being in existence. The PSA name, whether you all agree with me or not, gives me as a collector a sense of security when purchasing high-end collectibles. I look at it as a bit of insurance when I'm buying. So, in my humble opinion, PSA (and other legit companies) are just plain good for our hobby. And, if in the end they make a profit (which is, by-the-way why companies are in business to begin with) then good for them - after all, we need more employed people.

I know that all of us on this forum are very passionate about the hobby, and we definitely see our share of not-so-ethical people out there. It's good that we have this venue to share the hobby experience, knowledge of collectibles and spread the word about fraudulent activities, but I personally would like to see more positive statements being posted more often too.

Thanks Leon, for a refreshingly positive post!

[murcerfan]

I think I'm gonna cry.

[murcerfan]

any word on when the 1/4 grade scale will be implemented?

[DixieBaseball]

Leon,

Nice post and I must concur on similar observations as Joe strikes me as a guy who is tireless and works hard for PSA. I must have walked by the PSA booth a dozen times and just about every time I walked by he was engaged in a conversation with a customer (working, sleeves rolled up) and I remember noticing this at open and close, so he strikes me as one of those hands on leaders of his organization. This is only my perception of what I saw, but I must also say that I use PSA as well as SGC and think they both do a pretty good job. I use both companies for different grading ventures and I have generally been pleased over the years with their service.

Cheers - JJ

[murcerfan]

sleeves rolled up?

hmm... sounds like the weeds got pulled, chickens fed, cows milked, and the hay got put up right.

another g** damn hard working american dream.

[murcerfan]

oh yeah,

forgot to ask, what were the perfix cert numbers on the set-up day PSA show grades this year?

[GrayGhost]

OUch. someone has an ax to grind w PSA

[danmckee]

Oh Joe read this board plenty, he even quoted a post of mine when he screamed at me and hung up on me when I tried to collect the legal fees from the law suite. The back of their form stated back then that if you win a judgement from them in court, they will pay your legal fees. NOT, when I called to collect those, good ole Joe screamed at me and hung up on me.

You can have him Leon sorry

I have no respect whatsoever for him

Dan Mckee

[calvindog]

I think I'd have some respect for Joe if he didn't do all that he could to shut down any sort of public criticism of PSA. That doesn't suggest to me that he cares about fixing his company's problems.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I think I'd have some respect for Joe if he didn't do all that he could to shut down any sort of public criticism of PSA. That doesn't suggest to me that he cares about fixing his company's problems.

That sounds like the Mike Brown approach to running a NFL franchise. If he put half the effort into actually fixing the Bengals' issues as he does trying to deflect/suppress legitimate criticism, they might have had more than two winning seasons in the past 20 years...

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I think I'd have some respect for Joe if he didn't do all that he could to shut down any sort of public criticism of PSA.

+1

[T206Collector]

My take-away from Leon's post is that sometimes really nice and caring people do a terrible job running a company.

[Leon]

As I said, I know there are some on this board that have, and have had issues with Joe and/or PSA. Anytime someone is doing well and running a fairly large and successful organization there will be detractors. It would also be nice if some of those criticizing him would be more a part of the solution than the problem. How about starting a good, positive thread sometimes? Oh wait, it's easier to just bitch. I understand things go "poof" sometimes on the CU boards. Well, it's their board and they don't care to take all of the bitching the way I do. To me, no big deal. It's part of the gig. To them, they would rather not hear it sometimes. I can't really say I blame them but it's just not my style.

There are many folks in the hobby who don't like me and have never met me, spoke on the phone with me, and maybe not even emailed with me. It goes with the territory. There is no doubt Joe (and I...and you) will make mistakes as we are human. Overall, I find Joe a very nice and likable guy that is good for the hobby. I feel he is part of the solution. I wish I could say the same for everyone...

And btw, as outspoken as you are Jeff L., I like you and think you are good for the hobby in that no matter what, we know we have you to help point out crap and inconsistencies. At the same time I realize I get no free lunch from you either. Hey, but you could have at least bought me a soda in the cafe when we had a really nice chat at the National? Thanks again for taking time out to sit and talk for a while. It's too rare of an occurence.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

And btw, as outspoken as you are Jeff L., I like you and think you are good for the hobby in that no matter what, we know we have you to help point out crap and inconsistencies.

Now you've gone too far!!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Now you've gone too far!!

I know......just shoot me now.

[egbeachley]

I've said it before. "Joe is a great advocate for PSA". Any company would like someone like him on board.

[TONY-III]

I have a question...Can anyone name someone or some company who has done more for this hobby than Joe Orlando and PSA? From what I've seen Joe and PSA have done more positive things for this hobby than anyone on this forum can say they have, even after deducting every bitch and complaint that seems to flow so easily through everyone's keyboards onto my screen - whether they are legitimate bitches or not - deduct them all and you still get a more positive than negative impact.

[calvindog]

Yes, Bill Mastro.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Yes, Bill Mastro.

Not Dave Forman?

[blades3]

I've known Joe for more than a decade now and he's always been very honest and extremely passionate about the hobby. He's not scared or shy about pointing it out when he doesn't agree with something, but that's the way it should be. He runs a company that has a massive bullseye on its chest at all times, whether it's grading or authentication, few are ever completely satisfied with the results so it's not his job to be everyone's friend. I've gotten to know quite a few of the key people at PSA through the years and whether its Joe, Roy, Steve, Zach or others, I've been nothing but impressed on each occasion dealing with them.

Steve Bloedow
Collect Auctions

[Leon]

Originally Posted by TONY-III

I have a question...Can anyone name someone or some company who has done more for this hobby than Joe Orlando and PSA? From what I've seen Joe and PSA have done more positive things for this hobby than anyone on this forum can say they have, even after deducting every bitch and complaint that seems to flow so easily through everyone's keyboards onto my screen - whether they are legitimate bitches or not - deduct them all and you still get a more positive than negative impact.

I think Joe loves the hobby and has done a ton for it. You asked a question so I will give an honest, non sarcastic, personal opinion answer-

Jefferson Burdick

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.
.
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[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Not Dave Forman?

No, because Bill gave something to the hobby ($$) in that lawsuit and Dave didn't.

[wrapperguy]

If memory serves, didn't Joe have a huge collection, had it graded by his own company and then sold the cards at auction for a huge sum? I believe some of the cards were the highest graded at that time. If I recall, for a short time, PSA was in the business of or was thinking of expanding their business to auction their own cards. As I remember, there was much discussion of the obvious conflict of interest. Does this ring a bell with anyone else? If not, I am losing my mind.

[TONY-III]

Jefferson Burdick - A very fine example indeed.

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

I love all these threads about meeting the people with past histories that are stained on how nice they are and what a great person they are. What do you expect? them telling you to stick it and move on, heck your just another potential mark. What makes you think they are going to change or treat you different all they want is your money, bottom line and =they don't care how they get it or who gets hurt.

Keep spreading the love until it actually touches you and find there is no love in these people.

Lee

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by wrapperguy

If memory serves, didn't Joe have a huge collection, had it graded by his own company and then sold the cards at auction for a huge sum? I believe some of the cards were the highest graded at that time. If I recall, for a short time, PSA was in the business of or was thinking of expanding their business to auction their own cards. As I remember, there was much discussion of the obvious conflict of interest. Does this ring a bell with anyone else? If not, I am losing my mind.

I seem to remember hearing stuff like that, yep.

Tabe

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by TONY-III

I have a question...Can anyone name someone or some company who has done more for this hobby than Joe Orlando and PSA? ......

Sy Berger and Topps, Mickey Mantle and a myriad of other MLB players for starters.

Also, I know many hobby purists / long-time collectors would also argue that third party grading has done more damage to the hobby than anything else since it has turned this hobby into, well, I guess I'm going to have to use that dreadful word: "industry". And if TPG has done the most damage, who do you put on the top of that list?

[T206Collector]

Has Joe O contributed a lot to the hobby? Sure.

Is he one helluva guy? Seems so.

Does PSA know how to consistently grade pre-war cards? Not on your life.

I dislike PSA for the only reason that matters to me as a collector.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by wrapperguy

If memory serves, didn't Joe have a huge collection, had it graded by his own company and then sold the cards at auction for a huge sum? I believe some of the cards were the highest graded at that time. If I recall, for a short time, PSA was in the business of or was thinking of expanding their business to auction their own cards. As I remember, there was much discussion of the obvious conflict of interest. Does this ring a bell with anyone else? If not, I am losing my mind.

I believe you are referring to David Hall the president of Collectors Universe and founder of PSA. He even had his cards in the PSA registry as I recall. And yes, CU did have a sports card auction branch called Superior Auctions.

David Hall is still with CU, mainly in the coin-branch of the company, but now has his own coin company specializing in CU-graded high dollar coins. I believe it's called David Hall Rare Coins. Old habits die hard.

[autograf]

Went to the PSA registry dinner on Friday and David Hall was one of the speakers as was Joe Orlando. It was the registry awards and David Hall was inducted into the PSA Hall of Fame for his previous collection. I also subsequently saw him at Memory Lane buying or selling cards as well. I would think he is also involved in the hobby as he stated he was working on T206's--primarily the tougher backs. At least that was his quote in the registry dinner.

[Leon]

Ok, so I tried to say something good about Joe O, who seems like a good guy. I think this thread is very indicative of what many folks who I frequently speak with say about this board. I sort of cringe when they say it but it's the truth. There is so much negativity it sometimes turns people off. If you are so disgusted with the hobby and that bitter about everything, why not just find another one? I, for one, would rather spread good will towards other collectors and try to see the positive, at least sometimes. It's not like all of our 3000'ish members are going to let bad things be done without pointing them out. And yeah, I get the fact everyone likes a train wreck. I admit I slow down to take a look too. And then there are the few people who would rather post positively on other boards and then come here to post their hatred, venom and vile. That really sucks....Just look up in this thread and you will see all of what I say.

Joe- if you are reading this, keep up the good work.

[barrysloate]

I agree with Leon- too much negativity on this board.

[calvindog]

Leon, I understand your wanting to be happy and your desire for Net 54 to be a happy place but you need to appreciate that just because the guy was nice to you for a few minutes at the National doesn't mean he should be presumed to be a shining light in the hobby. It also doesn't mean that he's a bad guy either. This hobby is filled with controversial people and topics and people will disagree. There were positive things about Joe said on this thread and negative -- exactly what I would expect. What's the problem?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Leon, I understand your wanting to be happy and your desire for Net 54 to be a happy place but you need to appreciate that just because the guy was nice to you for a few minutes at the National doesn't mean he should be presumed to be a shining light in the hobby. It also doesn't mean that he's a bad guy either. This hobby is filled with controversial people and topics and people will disagree. There were positive things about Joe said on this thread and negative -- exactly what I would expect. What's the problem?

Well, one of the posters above seems to post positively other places but just comes here to post negatively, which really bugs me...that and a certain someone seems to get drunk and post hatred, but I actually like him . Hey, I get it Jeff...I realize that just because he was nice to me for a few minutes doesn't make him a "great" guy . But we all know a fair amount about PSA, and though they have their issues, I do believe they run a good ship. I do understand what you are saying though. And please understand that I just speak (write) extemporaneously sometimes. Otherwise, how the heck would I have over 5100 posts? I do believe Joe was being very genuine when we spoke and I appreciated that. He admitted a lot of stuff and you can tell he understands his company, and himself aren't perfect. But I think he tries which is more than I can say for many folks on this board. For all of those that bitch it would be great to see them start just one, tiny positive thread about cards!! Oh the joy that would bring.

[kcohen]

I don't know the man and I will take Leon's words on their face. However, actions speak louder than words so I would be more convinced of Mr. Orlando's seriousness regarding fraud in the hobby if PSA changed to a more tamper-proof holder.

[oldjudge]

"I have a question...Can anyone name someone or some company who has done more for this hobby than Joe Orlando and PSA?"


Lew Lipset--one of the hobby greats, who no longer gets the recognition he deserves

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by kcohen

I don't know the man and I will take Leon's words on their face. However, actions speak louder than words so I would be more convinced of Mr. Orlando's seriousness regarding fraud in the hobby if PSA changed to a more tamper-proof holder.

I suspect cost is a factor here -- would collectors pay the extra $$ required for such a thing (I would)? I also think holders should have some sort of UV protection to prevent against fading.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I suspect cost is a factor here -- would collectors pay the extra $$ required for such a thing (I would)? I also think holders should have some sort of UV protection to prevent against fading.

One conversation I will always remember and ironically it was with someone in this thread. We were all in a car going somewhere, at the National. I asked the question to the few others, "would you pay $3 more for a better holder to protect your expensive cards?" That person said "no way". I laughed.....I thought it was a stupid question as I thought anyone would pay a few bucks for a better holder, but I guess I was wrong (again).

[campyfan39]

Agree 100%.
Grading sucks

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Sy Berger and Topps, Mickey Mantle and a myriad of other MLB players for starters.

Also, I know many hobby purists / long-time collectors would also argue that third party grading has done more damage to the hobby than anything else since it has turned this hobby into, well, I guess I'm going to have to use that dreadful word: "industry". And if TPG has done the most damage, who do you put on the top of that list?

[botn]

I have known Joe a very long time...well before he was working for PSA. Joe does have a great deal of passion for the hobby. I don't think Joe is the problem at PSA and I don't think that he alone can change all that is wrong at PSA. Some of the things collectors and dealers complain about are the same things they have complained about for almost 20 years. And not to derail the thread but SGC is fraught with their own issues so obviously there are inherent problems with third party grading.

[E93]

I have had only positive experiences with Joe. He is passionate about the hobby, and professional in his business dealings. Though the few issues I have brought to him have not always turned out the way I wanted, they have always been handled professionally and I can always see his/PSA's perspective.
JimB

[hangman62]

Leon mentioned something interesting..guys who get drunk..or buzzed..then start writing crazy stuff on the site.... how many have done that..Im sure more then a few

[Leon]

Originally Posted by campyfan39

Agree 100%.
Grading sucks

Until you buy a 25k card, like I did, didn't notice a tiny bit of touched up color, and returned the card for a full refund after the graders caught it....then, grading doesn't suck so much.

Unless of course you are the seller...then it might suck. Just some random thoughts that I have experienced....and it was with a Boston Garter...

[tbob]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

"I have a question...Can anyone name someone or some company who has done more for this hobby than Joe Orlando and PSA?"


Lew Lipset--one of the hobby greats, who no longer gets the recognition he deserves

Lionel Carter and others whose contributions to the hobby are just being appreciated by collectors.

[kcohen]

Originally Posted by hangman62

Leon mentioned something interesting..guys who get drunk..or buzzed..then start writing crazy stuff on the site.... how many have done that..Im sure more then a few

Better doing that in such a state than bidding in the extended time portion on an on-line auction.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by TONY-III

I have a question...Can anyone name someone or some company who has done more for this hobby than Joe Orlando and PSA? From what I've seen Joe and PSA have done more positive things for this hobby than anyone on this forum can say they have, even after deducting every bitch and complaint that seems to flow so easily through everyone's keyboards onto my screen - whether they are legitimate bitches or not - deduct them all and you still get a more positive than negative impact.

+1. Like Leon, I favor the measure of protection companies like PSA and SGC offer. I remember during the early '90's, when grading companies were just getting started in cards after gaining quite a foothold in coins a few years earlier, when there were a lot more raw cards which appeared to be of high grade, out there to be gone through. A little experience with one particular local dealer, that dealer's penchant for altering cards, and PSA's feedback taught me to take along a 16X loupe to check the edges and other elements of a card a lot more closely. Those were the days when you could find and buy a raw NMT-MT '55 Gil Hodges for less than $150, get it graded as an "8," and turn around and sell it for $300 or so, if that was your heart's desire. Now, with a much higher percentage of the cards I'm seeking having been graded, the loupe has been a far less essential piece of equipment for shows. Everyone knows the grading companies aren't perfect, and we know darn well that we aren't either! But make no mistake, they have had made it far more difficult for the would-be scammers to steal your $$$ in this hobby! And yes, Jeff L. also makes an outstanding contribution, adding balance to the equation, with his outspoken nature and insight. The more informed you are, the better decisions you'll usually make, emotions aside.

As always, an interesting debate!

Larry

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I suspect cost is a factor here -- would collectors pay the extra $$ required for such a thing (I would)? I also think holders should have some sort of UV protection to prevent against fading.

Cost is almost certainly a factor in developing and marketing a tamper-proof holder, as PSA strives to compete effectively in the marketplace, especially of course with its main rival, SGC. I would also very much like to see UV protection offered against fading. Good thought, Jeff.

Best to all who make this forum such an interesting place to go!

Larry