E121 Series of 120 rarities survey

[Archive]

Posted By: brianp (April 18 2009, 11:39 AM)

As noted in the E121 Series of 80 rarities posting, I believe that there might be variation cards listed in the catalogs for this set that are either very tough to come by or perhaps non-existent. I have listed below the cards that I have not personally seen (or have seen and forgotten, or just purely out of my lack of attention), and would appreciate any collector responses, either here or by email, confirming the existence of these cards. I will post my findings here. Many of the listed cards are variations, so the info noted must be exact. And let me know if there is a card not listed that you think should be listed.

E121 Series of 120 cards that need to be confirmed:

G.C. Alexander (arms above head)
Carlson Bigbee (spelled just like this)
Corson L. Bigbee (spelled just like this)
Max Carey (batting)
Ty Cobb (batting)
Ty Cobb (throwing face front)
E.P. Gharrity
Walter Holke (throwing)
Rogers Hornsby
R.Meusel
Clyde Milan
"Hy" Myers
Chas. O'Leary
Eppa Rixey Jr.
"Babe" Ruth (three pictures)
Babe Ruth (three pictures)
"Babe Ruth" (holding bird)
Babe Ruth (holding bird)
"Babe" Ruth (holding ball)
Wally Schang
Ferd Schupp
George Sisler (throwing)
Tris Speaker (batting-large projection)
Milton Stock (not Milton J. Stock)
Fred Toney (foot raised)
Zach Wheat
George Whitted (Brooklyn)


Any help will be appreciated,

Brian P.

[Archive]

Posted By: Peter (April 18 2009, 1:03 PM)

I just sold a Ruth Holding Ball SGC Authentic last week. If you check VCP, you will see that there have been sales of Ruth Holding Ball before (not that many but there wer some). I would guess that VCP will list the sales of the others you wish to confirm as well and therefore you would have your confirmation.

[Archive]

Posted By: Rhett Yeakley (April 18 2009, 1:34 PM)

Brian, I have been doing the exact same thing for the past few years, here is my Series of 120 list that I have not confirmed, I have only marked off a card when I am 100% sure through visual evidence that it exists. I have done the same thing with the Series of 80 but don't want to get too far into that right now, the 120 series is much more straight forward and is easier to do.

My list of unconfirmed Series of 120's...
Carlson Bigbee
Corson L. Bigbee
Chas. A. Deal
Harry Heilman (incorrect name)
Walter Holke (throw)
"Hy" Myers (name in quotes)
Chas. O'Leary
Eppa Rixey Jr.
Babe Ruth (photo Montage) -no quotes around Babe
Babe Ruth (with bird) -no quotes around Babe
Ray Schalk (Batting)
Ferd Schupp
George Sisler (throwing)
Milton Stock (no "J." middle initial)
Zach Wheat

Obviously, you have some not on my list (that I have seen) and I have some not on your list (that you say you've seen). Of those listed above I am 99% sure a few don't exist, those being the following... Myers, O'Leary, and Stock. There very well could be some above that also don't exist
-Rhett Yeakley

[Archive]

Posted By: Rhett Yeakley (April 18 2009, 1:40 PM)

Here are some 120's on your list that I own & have scans of right now...

-Rhett

[Archive]

Posted By: brianp (April 18 2009, 2:09 PM)

Thanks for the great responses Pete, Bobby and Rhett. Here is the current updated list:


E121 Series of 120 cards that need to be confirmed:

Carlson Bigbee (spelled just like this)
Corson L. Bigbee (spelled just like this)
Max Carey (batting)
Ty Cobb (throwing face front)
Walter Holke (throwing)
R.Meusel
"Hy" Myers
Chas. O'Leary
Eppa Rixey Jr.
"Babe" Ruth (three pictures)
Babe Ruth (three pictures)
"Babe Ruth" (holding bird)
Babe Ruth (holding bird)
Ferd Schupp
George Sisler (throwing)
Tris Speaker (batting-large projection)
Milton Stock (not Milton J. Stock)
Fred Toney (foot raised)
Zach Wheat
George Whitted (Brooklyn)


Keep them coming...

Brian

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous (April 18 2009, 5:42 PM)

Here is what I have, but they are not for sale:



Rhett,

Sorry to say, I sold a Heilman batting several years back.

[Archive]

Posted By: ErikV (April 18 2009, 6:04 PM)

I see this card has been eliminated off you list,
but I think there are two variations: "2B" and "OF"
Not sure if both variations have been confirmed.

[Archive]

Posted By: David Gerhart (April 18 2009, 9:04 PM)

After collecting this set over the last 7 or 8 years and having the #1 set in the PSA registry for the E121 series of 120 I can tell you I strongly believe that the following cards do not exist. Even though the population reports claim their are Large Projection Speakers, all the ones I have seen in PSA holders were mislabeled (surprise). Also the same could be said about the Ruths w/o quotes. My question is how do we get these cards removed from the registry and all the other publications which have them listed?
Carlson Bigbee
Corson L. Bigbee
Chas. Deal
Harry Heilman/ incorrect
Walter Holke/ Throwing
Hy Myers/ with quotes
Chas. O'leary
Eppa Rixey (Jr.)
Babe Ruth/ Photo Montage without quotes
Babe Ruth/ Holding Bird without quotes
Ferd Schupp
George Sisler/ Throwing
Tris Speaker/ Large Projection
Milton Stock (w/o J)
George Whitted/ Brooklyn

[Archive]

Posted By: Matt (April 18 2009, 10:21 PM)

David - I sent your list to SCD a few months ago to get the big book corrected. I can also confirm that the few Heilman (Name incorrect) that PSA shows with the 120 back that I have seen are mislabeled.

My Trade/Sale Page

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous (April 18 2009, 11:39 PM)

Well, guys I have an apology.

After reviewing the 2002 eBay invoice, the batting Heilmann had two n's and not one.

[Archive]

Posted By: JK (April 19 2009, 12:13 AM)

I dont own this any longer, but still had the scan on hand:

[Archive]

Posted By: Ken McMillan (April 19 2009, 12:40 AM)

nice cards, gents

Kmac

[Archive]

Posted By: Rhett Yeakley (April 19 2009, 12:52 AM)

Dave, it looks like our lists are pretty much the same, which is what I would expect. The only differnces are the Speaker (large) & Whitted (Brooklyn) are not on my list.

I don't have scans handy of those two, but am pretty sure I HAVE seen a Whitted Brooklyn, the Speaker could have been a mistake (but I am usually VERY careful about the cards before I took them off the list.)

Several of the cards were probably just errors where the card exists as a Series of 80 card and was mistakenly also attributed to the 120 series, those being the following...
Chas. Deal
Heilman (incorrect name)
Holke (throwing)
Myers w/ quotes (as that is how it is in the 80)
Rixey Jr. (as that is the name in the 80 series)
Ferd Schupp
Sisler (throwing)
Milton Stock (as that is the name in the 80 series w/o the J.)


The two Ruth's are probably just mistakes.

The Bigbee's and the O'Leary are the most puzzling of the whole bunch.

-Rhett

[Archive]

Posted By: brianp (April 19 2009, 2:28 AM)

Thanks Bobby, Rhett, Brian and David for the great input. I have revised my list below:

E121 Series of 120 cards that need to be confirmed:

Carlson Bigbee (spelled just like this)
Corson L. Bigbee (spelled just like this)
Chas. Deal
Harry Heilman (name incorrect)
Walter Holke (throwing)
Rogers Hornsby (OF)
"Hy" Myers
Chas. O'Leary
Eppa Rixey Jr.
Babe Ruth (photo montage)
Babe Ruth (holding bird)
Ferd Schupp
George Sisler (throwing)
Tris Speaker (batting-large projection)
Milton Stock (not Milton J. Stock)
Zach Wheat
George Whitted (Brooklyn)


I assume with David and Rhett's list that the following from the list above exists, but will wait until information is confirmed to remove:

Rogers Hornsby (OF) --thanks Erik for pointing this out
Zach Wheat

Also, a question for JK--Since both David and Rhett have Eppa J. Rixey on their lists, can you confirm that the Rixey you showed is indeed the 120 Series?

Great work everyone!


Brian

[Archive]

Posted By: Rhett Yeakley (April 19 2009, 2:30 AM)

Brian, I just checked out Dave's PSA registry set and he has the Zach Wheat 120 (his position is listed as O.F.--so it can't be a 80 series), and I can say w/ 100% certainty the Hornsby O.F. does exist.

Eppa J. Rixey (pictured above) exists as a 120 series card, however, the Eppa Rixey Jr. card does not.

-Rhett

[Archive]

Posted By: Rhett Yeakley (April 19 2009, 2:35 AM)

The Rixey should look like this one (but have a 120 Series back, not Standard Biscuit)

-Rhett

[Archive]

Posted By: brianp (April 19 2009, 2:54 AM)

Thanks Rhett--now I can see about checklist confusion, as I had the wrong Rixey in my head. So here goes again:


E121 Series of 120 cards that need to be confirmed:

Carlson Bigbee (spelled just like this)
Corson L. Bigbee (spelled just like this)
Chas. Deal
Harry Heilman (name incorrect)
Walter Holke (throwing)
"Hy" Myers
Chas. O'Leary
Eppa Rixey Jr.
Babe Ruth (photo montage--no quotes)
Babe Ruth (holding bird--no quotes)
Ferd Schupp
George Sisler (throwing)
Tris Speaker (batting-large projection)
Milton Stock (not Milton J. Stock)
George Whitted (Brooklyn)


I think we may have just narrowed this one down to the bare bones...but I think the Series of 80 list might still have a couple more that can be deleted?

Brian

[Archive]

Posted By: David Gerhart (April 19 2009, 9:44 AM)

I agree that the Hornsby OF card exists because I have it and have just failed to enter it into my Registry set. I would agree with Rhett that the Whitted Brooklyn might be out there but I have yet to see a front and back scan of one.

[Archive]

Posted By: David Gerhart (April 21 2009, 2:13 PM)

I have spoken with Joe Orlando over at PSA and they are going to temporarily remove the cards which have been verified as not existing pending any new info which proves otherwise. I have also contacted Old Cardboard about their comprehensive list and they are going to check it out and call me to see what we need to do. It would be nice if there was an official list so those of us that collect the set could get the satisfaction of completing this set. Thanks to everyone for their help. Dave

[Archive]

Posted By: brian p (April 21 2009, 3:38 PM)

Thanks to all that participated...a revision of the E121 checklists have been long overdue. And thanks Dave for following up and making contact with people who can make an official change...it definitely will be a benefit to all us vintage collectors.

Brian

[Bob Lemke]

I'll flag my desk copy of the Standard Catalog with the latest list of unconfirmed Series of 120 as shown above.

If these are not confirmed via updates to this thread by the deadline for the 2011 edition, I'll mark them "Existence now questioned" for a year or two and then eliminate them.

You guys do good work.

[oldbugman]

What are the chances of getting a scan of the Schupp.....that is one of my White Whales.....thank you

[brianp-beme]

Here is the updated list...I posted a visual confirmation on the other E121 Series of 120 thread of the Whitted Brooklyn variation that I have removed from the list:

Carlson Bigbee (spelled just like this)
Corson L. Bigbee (spelled just like this)
Chas. Deal
Harry Heilman (name incorrect)
Walter Holke (throwing)
"Hy" Myers
Chas. O'Leary
Eppa Rixey Jr.
Babe Ruth (photo montage--no quotes)
Babe Ruth (holding bird--no quotes)
Ferd Schupp
George Sisler (throwing)
Tris Speaker (batting-large projection)
Milton Stock (not Milton J. Stock)


Brian

[rondiamond]

After 20 years of looking, I have yet to see proof that Alex Gaston had a card in this set. Even PSA supplies some proof by stating the card that they claim to have graded did not have a position. Am I mistaken but does this not imply that the card was not finished and not in the set. Also: if his first game was Sept. 20, 1920....how fast could the sets get a card ready for an unspectacular rookie? There was no inet, no fax, no TV no nothing. Odds are very much against this card. I have seen 1922 Alex Gaston which might have been confused with the 1921(same front). I've offered $1000 for any such Alex Gaston card from 1921 E121 (80) set....no takers after 10 years.

[brianp-beme]

Hi Ron...good points as always concerning the lack of evidence of a Gaston Series of 80 card, but this post should have been on the E121 80 series thread, as it might cause confusion on this E121 series of 120 thread (because there is a E121 120 series card of Gaston...heck, even I have one).

Brian