Premium Card Prices

[V117collector]

I thought it would be interesting to see what other collectors thought about paying premium card prices.

eg; "Some collectors pay huge premiums on highest graded material."

What would you pay a premium on and why?

A high grade rare backed T205. Since this is what I collect. I also have paid a premium for cards I want for my set regardless of average values.

[jmk59]

Definitely for cards that I might not get a chance at again soon or have been looking for for awhile. This isn't the same as the normal higher price for a rarity in general. It's more like a rarity to me. For instance, I've overpaid for things like E93's or T204's when I saw a Detroiter I wanted just b/c I needed a Detroit player, even though E93's and T204's are not necessarily rare themselves.

I'll also pay a bit of a premium for a card that has great eye appeal for it's technical grade.

I might kick in a few extra dollars - maybe not a whole lot - for a card that belonged to a famous pioneer collector, either by noted on the slab (Nagy, Carter, etc) or by writing on the back (like some of Barker and Burdick notes).

J

[JasonL]

I have on occasion overpaid for a card simply because I was irritated at having been the underbidder on the last 5 times it has come up for sale.

That's the "I want to just be done with this purchase already!" premium.

[brian1961]

There are a lot of factors that come to play here----your goal, your competitive spirit, your passion level for the particular item and what it represents to you as a collector, to your collection, and perhaps to other hobbyists, and ESPECIALLY your financial means.

I will key in on the statement you used: "Some collectors pay huge premiums on highest graded material."

If there is a particular set or player that you are simply nuts about; I mean, one that you have admired and enjoyed for several years or even most of your collecting life, and particularly one that you will likely not change your mind about, then you will tend to studiously ascertain what are your chances of seeing that item become available again.

Granted, finds may happen, but not as they did in the 70s, 80s, and early 90s. Most pioneers are now deceased, and their collections sold. The public has been aware for about 35 years that baseball cards are valuable---98% of them have cashed in grandpa's cards, or the ones saved as souvinirs from the printer. Surprises happen, like the 1953-55 Dormand postcard of Gil Hodges, but that is a rare case.

It is hard to discuss without mentioning a specific player or set. Since this is a pre-war board, I will try to respect it with at least one good example. But the question is a good one that covers any era of collecting. In my own life, during the mid-1970s, I enjoyed the post-war regional/food issues. One of the sets that I was quite taken with were the 1955 Rodeo Meats Kansas City Athletics. I loved the design, the promotion--including the fact that many cards were pasted into a well-designed album that the Rodeo hot dog company sold the kids, the plethora of colors, the fact there was some variety in poses, the scarcity, the rarity, the players, and just the idea that the set celebrated the arrival of the brand-new Kansas City Athletics. You could tell the town was ecstatic over their own major league team. Civic pride personified in that big, tough as nails, regional set. Fairly unheard of until the card conventions of the 70s introduced many, including some pioneers, to these beautiful cards. The pioneers were really scrambling. They loved them. They loved the challenge. No one wanted to sell any--only trade. I got absolutely nowhere, save for a few smashed examples.

Fast forward to about 1997, over 20 years later. Mastro Auctions was selling the prestigious collection of the renown hobby pioneer Don Steinbach. He had Wilsons, he had Glendales, but he also had the finest 55 Rodeo set in the world. It once belonged to another hobby pioneer from the KC area WHO SPENT 25 LONG YEARS PUTTING THAT MONSTER BABY TOGETHER!!!!! Can you say chance of a lifetime? Precisely.

I did not hesitate, nor tell anyone what I was going to fight for. I do not recall what the guide price was. Do you think I cared? Do you think I would agonize over a few extra measily thousand dollars (NOTE: I LOST SLEEP OVER "A FEW EXTRA MEASILY THOUSAND DOLLARS" --I SINCERELY REGRET THAT POOR WORD CHOICE IN THESE DIFFICULT TIMES) over a set that might not come on the market again for 20 years, and then when it did sell again might go for 50K? I had plenty of competition, but I won it. When I got the cards, they were unreal. I could not fathom how nice they looked, because they were in such high grade, for I was well aware that Rodeos are simply not found in nice condition. Rodeos do not sell that high, because they often are not found in EXCELLENT or better condition. There are several meat sets like that--Briggs, Hunter's, Stahl-Meyer, Glendale, Esskay, '59 Morrell, and Rodeo. Sometimes high grade examples of these, or in the case of the hand-cut sets--complete boxes or full panels, sell for fabulous premiums. The worst case scenario for a collector is when a tough set happens to include your favorite star player, and the eye appeal is spine-tingling ferocious. Such would include a Wilson Franks Ted Williams, Morrell/Bell Brand Sandy Koufax, Stahl-Meyer/Wilson Franks Roy Campanella, or Stahl-Meyer/Dan-Dee/ Briggs Mickey Mantle. There are major differences between them, but this reply is too long already.

I shall now make it longer.

Remember, I said I would include a prewar example. I respect Leon's wishes, and want to keep you all happy. Let's bring it down to your favorite time frame. OK, so low and behold someone turns up an EXCELLENT-TO- MINT 1910 Washington Times Ty Cobb. Virtually perfect, with only just enough corner wear to render it "only a SGC 80/PSA 6". I mean, the deep crimson borders are rich and undisturbed. Ty Cobb's portrait with that quintessential glare and fire in his eyes visage is overwhelmingly attractive and most desirable. Few collect the set. Just like collecting the Stahl-Meyer Franks. I don't care about the set---I love Mickey Mantle and Roy Campanella. Same here, if you put such a brilliant piece in an All-State Display case displaying a portfolio of Ty's best-looking, most artistically-designed pieces----there would be the T-3, there would be all 4 T-206s, there would be one of the Cracker Jack, the T-205, the '33 Goudey Sport King, several of those fantastic postcards (The Rose Company, etc.), a Colgan's Chip, and maybe if you are daring, a Conlon color card that was well-done of him stealing third into Jimmy Austin. But believe you me, the piece that the Cobb connoisseurs would be drooling over (keep the door of it closed, just in case) would be that 1910 Washington Times--for its eye appeal, its scarcity, its 1 of 1 rarity, and the fact it would be a fantastic conversation piece. You might even enjoy watching your rivals go white as a sheet at its sight--bitten clean through their windpipe. That would be a nice example of a North Pole six-figure card. A piece de resistance Ty Cobb. Just wish someone would turn one up.

I must get back to work. Thanks for listening, if you made it this far. Bye. --Brian Powell

[T206Collector]

....for any autographed T206 card I did not already own.

[barrysloate]

Good story Brian...and I read the whole thing.

[JasonL]

Thanks for sharing that Brian...and very well written.

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by jmk59

Definitely for cards that I might not get a chance at again soon or have been looking for for awhile. This isn't the same as the normal higher price for a rarity in general. It's more like a rarity to me. ...
J

Similar with me for my Red Sox collection...though patience has generally paid off (I've found waiting - not jumping in to pay a "premium" price - usually results in better price and/or better card). But it takes a lot of resolve...

[Wesley]

Originally Posted by brian1961

I shall now make it longer.

Remember, I said I would include a prewar example. I respect Leon's wishes, and want to keep you all happy. Let's bring it down to your favorite time frame. OK, so low and behold someone turns up an EXCELLENT-TO- MINT 1910 Washington Times Ty Cobb. Virtually perfect, with only just enough corner wear to render it "only a SGC 80/PSA 6". I mean, the deep crimson borders are rich and undisturbed. Ty Cobb's portrait with that quintessential glare and fire in his eyes visage is overwhelmingly attractive and most desirable. Few collect the set. Just like collecting the Stahl-Meyer Franks. I don't care about the set---I love Mickey Mantle and Roy Campanella. Same here, if you put such a brilliant piece in an All-State Display case displaying a portfolio of Ty's best-looking, most artistically-designed pieces----there would be the T-3, there would be all 4 T-206s, there would be one of the Cracker Jack, the T-205, the '33 Goudey Sport King, several of those fantastic postcards (The Rose Company, etc.), a Colgan's Chip, and maybe if you are daring, a Conlon color card that was well-done of him stealing third into Jimmy Austin. But believe you me, the piece that the Cobb connoisseurs would be drooling over (keep the door of it closed, just in case) would be that 1910 Washington Times--for its eye appeal, its scarcity, its 1 of 1 rarity, and the fact it would be a fantastic conversation piece. You might even enjoy watching your rivals go white as a sheet at its sight--bitten clean through their windpipe. That would be a nice example of a North Pole six-figure card. A piece de resistance Ty Cobb. Just wish someone would turn one up.

Before I got to the end of this paragraph, I thought perhaps you knew of the existence of a EX-MT Washington Time Ty Cobb card. But it appears you were using that only as a hypotethetical to illustrate your point.

For a card like the Washington Times Ty Cobb, in which only 2 or 3 exist, it would make hardly a difference to me whether it were graded SGC 2 or SGC 6. I might pay a small premium for the better condition example, but not a large one.

[Leon]

First of all besides Joann I am not sure we have a better writer on the board than Brian. (But I already knew that.) Nice story Brian...and it's ok to OT a little to the 1950's on the main board, every once in a while. So far you are still the only collector that has sang a jingle to me on the phone to create realism with what you wrote. Once again, fantastic job!!

Now to the question. I will pay a premium for cards I don't think I will see again, or if I do, it will be many years. As a rarity collector and type card collector there are some things I just have to have. It was funny in the other thread about what to buy for long term value. My good friend Dan D (and thanks again for the 1916 Big Head yesterday) joked with me about paying a lot for the E100 printers scraps? I have. Funny thing is that the first one I got my snipe was literally 4x my winning bid, and then I lowered it to, what became 3x the winning bid, as I figured I didn't want to go quite that high. The 2nd one I won (really, when will we see another?) was only 2x the winning bid. As I look through my collection and notice the staggering high prices I have paid it becomes evident I am just another card junkie having fun.....and spending a bit too much (for my own liking) as I do it. best regards

For than a quarter of a century, the focus of our collection has been on securing ultra-high quality rare type cards. We have more than a dozen examples of the highest graded (SGC or PSA) example in a particular set.

We believe it is far more important that each example in our collection is of the highest quality (best condition). Accordingly, we expect to pay for rarity.

What we will not do, is pay a large premium for a HOF. We are type collectors, not player collectors. In most cases (we have more than 250 different type cards from 1869-1954), the player is not important.

As Ralph Lauren said "quality never goes out of style." We expect it, we demand it and we will pay for it

Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

[Epps]

Good story Brian.
I would overpay for any of the elusive Black Sox cards that seem impossible to find in any condition.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Yankeefan51

For than a quarter of a century, the focus of our collection has been on securing ultra-high quality rare type cards. We have more than a dozen examples of the highest graded (SGC or PSA) example in a particular set.

We believe it is far more important that each example in our collection is of the highest quality (best condition). Accordingly, we expect to pay for rarity.

What we will not do, is pay a large premium for a HOF. We are type collectors, not player collectors. In most cases (we have more than 250 different type cards from 1869-1954), the player is not important.

As Ralph Lauren said "quality never goes out of style." We expect it, we demand it and we will pay for it

Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

So Bruce....I have a legitimate question and hope you will answer it. Do you collect type cards, that you might not see again for many, many years, if the condition is lower than your preference? Personally, I collect the cards without too much emphasis on condition (of course I like nicer condition when circumstances permit) and I do collect HOF'ers when I can.....But, as on this card, when is the next time I will see one for sale?

[Epps]

Found one. Cool card.

Leon

95% of our type cards are PSA 7 or better

In a few cases, we have PSA (or SGC) 5's and 6's

We would consider lower grade cards on a case by case basis.

We actually owned a Gilmartin card about 8 years- it was not graded
but our guess is that it would have graded a 5.

Hope all is well


Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

[brian1961]

For a card like the Washington Times Ty Cobb, in which only 2 or 3 exist, it would make hardly a difference to me whether it were graded SGC 2 or SGC 6. I might pay a small premium for the better condition example, but not a large one.[/QUOTE]

Well, Wesley, I know I picked a tough nut to crack with the Cobb. You are logically sound in the respect that since there are only 2-3 that exist, it would hardly make any difference to you which one you might have.

However, your tight clenching of your coin purse tells me that if a better condition example be set before you, you would actually have the temerity to think you could bag it for a few pennies more. Or, perhaps you were simply stating that a better condition card means nothing to you, but you would force yourself to part with a couple more dimes, and the seller should thank you for that.

Wesley, if only sellers were that big of chumps; hey, you and I would have ourselves a whale of a collection. Maybe you could get in the face of the gentleman who purchased the T-206 Honus Wagner in PSA8 and tell him he really blew it. Why, he should have just been content with a smashed poor 1; they only cost $317,000. With your buying philosophy, he should have just offered, say $325,000, for the better condition one that everybody and their jealous uncle says is trimmed and expect the seller and SCP Auctions that brokered the individual sale to come bring him that gem right here and now in their limo.

I mean, if you could talk him into it, I would stand behind you and marvel. I would pound you on the back. Then again, Ken Kendrick is a General Partner of the Arizona Diamondbacks. He might have several bags of loose team mascots for people that enrage him. Hey Wes, if he starts throwin' those rattlesnakes, man, I'm out of here. But go ahead and try. Prices on great stuff would go down just like that if Ken caved in to your chop suey hooey line of thinking.

In the mean time buddy, let's hoist one to each other and enjoy that beautiful picture of the actual 1910 Washington Times Ty Cobb card in the Mastro Auctions catalog from a few years ago; you know, the one and only time they offered one from 1995 to 2008. At least we can enjoy THAT.

In all sincerity, though I have been sincere here all the way, if that is how you wish to collect, it is your money and you do as you wish. It is still a free country; well, sorta. Take care, collecting mate. -Brian Powell

[tbob]

I have paid a premium for tough and scarce cards to complete sets; otherwise, I look for bargains like most of us do.