OT: Ebay Policy Change

[rp12367]

New e-bay policy change - Sellers are going to have pay return shipping if item is faulty or not as described. As a buyer I welcome the change, I have been stuck shipping garbage items back one to many times. As a seller I am concerned that deadbeat buyers who just changed their minds are going to use this to get away scott free. Any thoughts as to the long term effects of the change to e-bay?

Key updates to the eBay Money Back Guarantee:

Consistent After-Sale Experience. We updated the policy to reflect that we're simplifying the after-sale experience for buyers and sellers with a new improved return process that gives buyers a more convenient and consistent way to return items—right from My eBay. Many of our sellers who use eBay hassle-free returns are paying for return shipping on faulty or not-as-described items. Starting September 15, an initial group of sellers, (and after a transition period, all remaining sellers) will be responsible for return shipping on items which are faulty or not-as-described. Many sellers are facilitating returns for faulty or not as described items, but for those sellers who choose not to facilitate a return or provide a return shipping label for a faulty or not as described item, we may refund their buyers without requiring the buyers to return the item, and in turn seek reimbursement from sellers.

[D. Bergin]

No, I can't see this being taken advantage of, no, not at all.

[slidekellyslide]

I don't understand why they can't use their fabulous DSR star ratings on the "Item as described" to punish the bad sellers...instead ALL sellers are treated as the enemy. But in the corporate world we all know that the big dogs still get their bonuses and golden parachutes no matter how much they run down the company.

[Buythatcard]

Another reason not to sell on eBay anymore. You heard the term "The straw that broke the camel's back". Well, my back is really beginning to hurt.

[thecatspajamas]

Can you provide a link to where you found that? The wording is far more upfront and plainly-spoken than I am used to seeing from ebay, especially where planned future changes are concerned.

My problem with the hassle-free return idea is that it presupposes that buyers will only return items that actually have defects and will only check the correct box for their scenario when initiating a return. The reality is that as soon as there is an opportunity and financial inventive to abuse the returns procedure, there will be more buyers doing so. It's bad enough now dealing with buyers who simply changed their mind when the buyer has to contact the seller and potentially eat the return shipping cost if they have buyer's remorse. Allow them to return anything at the seller's expense and without having to contact the seller if they just check the "not as described" box, and you WILL see the number of returns go way up. It won't be because sellers all of a sudden forget how to describe their wares accurately. It also won't be the majority, but it will be enough to make selling on ebay an unpleasant endeavor for many.

If you want an example of how a lack of accountability affects user behavior, look at the way that bid retractions are abused. The buyers you see with hundreds of retractions all checked the oops box over and over despite knowing full well what they were bidding. Without any repercussions or accountability though, it becomes a bidding strategy, even if it does require a white lie to utilize it each time.

[Exhibitman]

This is a boon to the auctioneers who are popping up like mushrooms on cowflops after a rain lately. Why would I pay eBay as much as an AH and agree to this silliness.

What it really means is that the buyers are getting a free trial period with every purchase. Or I can let the buyer keep the card and the money.

Screw eBay.

[D. Bergin]

Oh, there's a worse one out there coming then this one. I've just been to the Ebay Powerseller boards, and am too speechless to comprehend Ebay's oncoming stupidity.

I'll just leave this little egg and let others figure it out. I'm worn out from the 20 minutes I just spent wringing my hands out over this.

This might be the one that gets me moving in a different direction altogether.

[Exhibitman]

Oh, don't be a rules tease.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

If you want an example of how a lack of accountability affects user behavior, look at the way that bid retractions are abused. The buyers you see with hundreds of retractions all checked the oops box over and over despite knowing full well what they were bidding. Without any repercussions or accountability though, it becomes a bidding strategy, even if it does require a white lie to utilize it each time.

Yup, I just blocked two serial retractors this past week that sabotaged one of my items. It's out of hand.

People call it shilling, but it's no longer that in most cases. It's out and out interference of honest auctions. People need to start putting these clowns on their blocked bidder lists to discourage it, because Ebay's not doing it, and the big consignment houses certainly aren't doing it either.

I'm really beside myself right now.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Oh, don't be a rules tease.

Oh, it's a doozy. I think most people are going to blow a gasket when they find out.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Oh, it's a doozy. I think most people are going to blow a gasket when they find out.

Please, do tell. I've been sleeping far too well lately

[ATP]

Is it the one about bidders being able to cancel their winning item within one hour of auction end?

[rp12367]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

Can you provide a link to where you found that? The wording is far more upfront and plainly-spoken than I am used to seeing from ebay, especially where planned future changes are concerned.

My problem with the hassle-free return idea is that it presupposes that buyers will only return items that actually have defects and will only check the correct box for their scenario when initiating a return. The reality is that as soon as there is an opportunity and financial inventive to abuse the returns procedure, there will be more buyers doing so. It's bad enough now dealing with buyers who simply changed their mind when the buyer has to contact the seller and potentially eat the return shipping cost if they have buyer's remorse. Allow them to return anything at the seller's expense and without having to contact the seller if they just check the "not as described" box, and you WILL see the number of returns go way up. It won't be because sellers all of a sudden forget how to describe their wares accurately. It also won't be the majority, but it will be enough to make selling on ebay an unpleasant endeavor for many.

If you want an example of how a lack of accountability affects user behavior, look at the way that bid retractions are abused. The buyers you see with hundreds of retractions all checked the oops box over and over despite knowing full well what they were bidding. Without any repercussions or accountability though, it becomes a bidding strategy, even if it does require a white lie to utilize it each time.

It came via e-bay messages:

I know it is pretty well spelt out, not like the usual ebay double talk.

If you are a seller check your inbox it should be there, the message was titled:

Updates to the eBay User Agreement, User Privacy Notice and Money Back Guarantee

[rp12367]

Originally Posted by ATP

Is it the one about bidders being able to cancel their winning item within one hour of auction end?

Now that would be the straw that breaks the camel's back!

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Yup, I just blocked two serial retractors this past week that sabotaged one of my items. It's out of hand.

And if you would, PM or post the ID's of the serial retractors so that I can block them as well. I agree that this behavior has got to stop, and actively blocking them from getting "the stuff" is the only way to make it sink in for some of these yahoos.

[slidekellyslide]

Wow...I just went to the ebay Fall Seller Update forum and my head nearly exploded. It doesn't help that the mod "Jeff" is a condescending a-hole. What is ebay thinking??

[ATP]

Originally Posted by rp12367

Now that would be the straw that breaks the camel's back!

It wasn't a joke, unfortunately that is a real policy change coming.

[Buythatcard]

Here it is.

"We’re also streamlining the cancellation process to make it easier for buyers and sellers to cancel a transaction directly from My eBay. Buyers can request a cancellation if they change their mind within an hour after the sale (as long as you haven’t already shipped the item). This will help reduce the hassle of unpaid items and help you get your merchandise back up for sale faster. Sellers will also have the option to cancel transactions directly from My eBay instead of the Resolution Center and, if the buyer paid with PayPal, sellers will no longer need to wait for a response from the buyer."

If the buyer can change his mind 1 hour after the sale, then the seller should also have the option of cancelling the transaction 1 hour after the sale. Hey, I didn't like what my item sold for so I am going to cancel this sale.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Buythatcard

Here it is.

"We’re also streamlining the cancellation process to make it easier for buyers and sellers to cancel a transaction directly from My eBay. Buyers can request a cancellation if they change their mind within an hour after the sale (as long as you haven’t already shipped the item). This will help reduce the hassle of unpaid items and help you get your merchandise back up for sale faster. Sellers will also have the option to cancel transactions directly from My eBay instead of the Resolution Center and, if the buyer paid with PayPal, sellers will no longer need to wait for a response from the buyer."

If the buyer can change his mind 1 hour after the sale, then the seller should also have the option of cancelling the transaction 1 hour after the sale. Hey, I didn't like what my item sold for so I am going to cancel this sale.

So wait, can they? Is that what is implied by "Sellers will also have the option to cancel transactions directly..." or does that just mean once prompted to by the (non)buyer?

[bobbyw8469]

LOL!!! These new changes make my head spin! So, if I win the card at an auction as a buyer, and I think I paid too much for it, I can cancel the sale???? WOO-HOO!!!!!!!!!!!!

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Buythatcard

Here it is.

"We’re also streamlining the cancellation process to make it easier for buyers and sellers to cancel a transaction directly from My eBay. Buyers can request a cancellation if they change their mind within an hour after the sale (as long as you haven’t already shipped the item). This will help reduce the hassle of unpaid items and help you get your merchandise back up for sale faster. Sellers will also have the option to cancel transactions directly from My eBay instead of the Resolution Center and, if the buyer paid with PayPal, sellers will no longer need to wait for a response from the buyer."

I love how they word this like they are doing sellers a favor and saving us the "hassle".

They already opened up the hornets nest whenever they decided that retractions were just a part of the normal bidding process.

This time they dropped it right into the middle of a church picnic.

[Rollingstone206]

...

[kmac32]

WOW!!! I rarely sell on eBay and this makes me even more likely to not sell on eBay. How stupid can the powers in charge of eBay be. Lets not protect the Sellers in any way and see how the game plays out. They never seem to learn over there.

[Mountaineer]

It's a buyers market out there.

Ebay makes their money from people buying things and getting that percentage of the sale so it is no wonder why they cater to the buyers. Sellers are going to have to just adapt or find a different site/place to sell their goods. It sucks because the protection should be equal toward the seller and the buyer instead of it being lopsided.

[Exhibitman]

That's an interesting change. Not sure what to think of it. it would seem to be a partial solution for shill bidding. If you get run up by a shill at the end you can bail out rather than trying to get the seller to mutually rescind. There is definitely a potential for abuse.

I don't think sellers need the same rescission right because they are able to set the open and set a reserve if they don't want to risk a low bid auction.

[bobbyw8469]

I can see it working the other way. What if a card is at $50 with 30 seconds left. Two bidders come in with snipes, one at $200, the other at $205. The card is sold the one of the snipers for $202.50. He is pissed because he is thinking he was going to steal the card for around $50-$60. Instead he winds up at close to his max bid. I can see him trying to bail out of the deal. If a buyer thinks he is not getting a deal, he is not going to want a pay. If he winds up stealing the item, then he is wanting to pay every time. I don't think this is a good deal at all!

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

That's an interesting change. Not sure what to think of it. it would seem to be a partial solution for shill bidding. If you get run up by a shill at the end you can bail out rather than trying to get the seller to mutually rescind. There is definitely a potential for abuse.

I don't think sellers need the same rescission right because they are able to set the open and set a reserve if they don't want to risk a low bid auction.

[Exhibitman]

I didn't say it was good I said it was interesting. An ancient Chinese curse is "may you live in interesting times."

[1880nonsports]

who is accidently the "winning bidder" because he was too aggressive can now more easily decline the sale with no loss of time or fees to the seller? Likely more profitable for the miscreants as even more of the risk is out of the equation.

[Eric72]

Let's say that I am the highest bidder on an item. Then, someone comes along, outbids me, wins the auction, and subsequently "cancels" within that one hour time period.

Would my obligation to purchase the item be considered void when I am outbid -or - would I be required to purchase it, since I was the highest "real" bidder?

Furthermore, if I was required to purchase the item, which price would I be invoiced for...the one in place before I was outbid or my max?

If required to purchase at max bid, shill bidding will run even more rampant than before.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Let's say that I am the highest bidder on an item. Then, someone comes along, outbids me, wins the auction, and subsequently "cancels" within that one hour time period.

Would my obligation to purchase the item be considered void when I am outbid -or - would I be required to purchase it, since I was the highest "real" bidder?

Furthermore, if I was required to purchase the item, which price would I be invoiced for...the one in place before I was outbid or my max?

If required to purchase at max bid, shill bidding will run even more rampant than before.

From what I am reading, eBay's stance is that the seller should just re-list the item. If they aren't going to make the winning bidder pay, they certainly aren't going to make the underbidder do so.

Maybe there will be some provision for a second-chance offer to be made to the underbidder, but we all know how well those are usually received.

[the 'stache]

I'm going to subscribe to this thread, and read it again this afternoon when I get up, because I think my medications are screwing with my brain. I thought I just read something that said auction winners could cancel their transaction within an hour of the auction end.

But that can't be. Because that would go down as the dumbest idea I've ever seen on the internet. Really. Just put absurd bids on all the items you want, and note the time the auctions end. Then, look at said auctions, and just summarily cancel any where you're not happy with the final price.

Why would anybody ever sell on Ebay again?

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I'm going to subscribe to this thread, and read it again this afternoon when I get up, because I think my medications are screwing with my brain. I thought I just read something that said auction winners could cancel their transaction within an hour of the auction end.

But that can't be. Because that would go down as the dumbest idea I've ever seen on the internet. Really. Just put absurd bids on all the items you want, and note the time the auctions end. Then, look at said auctions, and just summarily cancel any where you're not happy with the final price.

Why would anybody ever sell on Ebay again?

+1. Bill, this just put a feather in the hats of ALL the auction houses that sell baseball cards EXCEPT Ebay. I would much rather submit my cards to Love of the Game, Sterling, REA, Huggins and Scott, et al. Anyone EXCEPT Ebay! I can also see this being a logistical nightmare for Probstein and PWCC. What happens when a consignor sells a card and the winning buyer says, thanks but no thanks. The consingor now has to wait until next month for the HOPE that the auction goes through to completion and the winning bidder doesn't back out? Thanks, but no thanks!

[cguidi]

I don't get it. EBay only collects final value fees if the item is paid for so the winning bid cancelation policy would negatively effect their revenue along with the sellers'. It sounds like a terrible policy to me but there has to be more to it...

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by cguidi

I don't get it. EBay only collects final value fees if the item is paid for so the winning bid cancelation policy would negatively effect their revenue along with the sellers'. It sounds like a terrible policy to me but there has to be more to it...

It is called appeasing the buyers. Being able to cancel auctions makes the buyer happy.

[rjackson44]

Feebay stick with net 54 folks

[Jeffrompa]

As a seller on EBay I can tell you it's all about the buyers . Sellers are are disposable .

[Exhibitman]

If eBay is mandating returns--treating collectibles like razor blades--then it makes sense to let the tire kickers just say no rather than taking delivery then sending it back. It is the cherry on top of the Amazon wannabe plan. except that cards aint books. I am done with it as a seller. As a buyer...let the games begin.

[ctownboy]

I don't see how Fraudbay can legally do this. I thought that making a bid was a legally binding contract? I even thought that when you placed a bid that their was a notice saying as much.

Now, how can they say it is a legally binding contract and then turn around and OK canceling your bid? To me, either it is a contract or it isn't. What eBay now seems to be saying is that it is neither. Or it is until it isn't.

At least with the current system, if a buyer bids , wins and then doesn't pay they can get some type of negative against them when a seller reports them as non-paying. With the new system this seems to not be the case as much (if the buyer backs out within an hour).

Also, if Fraudbay is going to enforce returns no matter what and make the seller pay for the postage, does that also mean they are going to return the fees they originally charged when the buyer paid the postage or are they going to keep those and the seller is going to be out the difference?

David

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

I don't see how Fraudbay can legally do this. I thought that making a bid was a legally binding contract? I even thought that when you placed a bid that their was a notice saying as much.

Now, how can they say it is a legally binding contract and then turn around and OK canceling your bid? To me, either it is a contract or it isn't. What eBay now seems to be saying is that it is neither. Or it is until it isn't.

At least with the current system, if a buyer bids , wins and then doesn't pay they can get some type of negative against them when a seller reports them as non-paying. With the new system this seems to not be the case as much (if the buyer backs out within an hour).

Also, if Fraudbay is going to enforce returns no matter what and make the seller pay for the postage, does that also mean they are going to return the fees they originally charged when the buyer paid the postage or are they going to keep those and the seller is going to be out the difference?

David

As long as ebay states what they are doing and it doesn't break a law they can do anything they want to. It's their company. They are Sort of like any other auction house in that respect. This is just my layperson opinion....For the record I still love to buy on ebay and do it almost daily.

[granite75]

All my eBay purchases are buy it now. I have searches set up for what I'm looking for and if it's what I consider a good price, I take it. If not, I keep looking. Ultimately, I have waited 7 days for an auction to end only to get sniped at the end or have the price end up too high.

[toppcat]

EBay is still useful for buying, to a degree and depending upon what you are looking for, but as a seller I can't see it being too easy anymore. I stopped selling years ago on the site; I use the BST now for pretty much all my selling plus the occasional auction.

[ctownboy]

Leon,

I understand that eBay is a business and can do whatever they want (within the law).

What I am having a hard time understanding is how, right before you place a bid, they tell you that by doing so you are entering into a binding legal agreement. Then, after you have won an auction, they can say that you can undo that binding agreement, without any penalty, if you say you want to cancel your winning bid within an hour of the close of the auction.

To me, a bid being a binding legal agreement is a solid thing. What eBay seems to be saying is that it is a binding agreement up until a point that it is not a binding legal agreement.

I am trying to think of some other areas where this is the case.

For example, I go to a bank and get a loan for a house or a car and sign the contract then I have entered into a binding legal agreement. Even within an hour, if I decide I have made a mistake, I can not just back out of the deal. I have to go and sign some other legal papers to back out. I can't just throw my hands up and say I don't want to go through with what I agreed to.

David

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

Leon,

I understand that eBay is a business and can do whatever they want (within the law).

What I am having a hard time understanding is how, right before you place a bid, they tell you that by doing so you are entering into a binding legal agreement. Then, after you have won an auction, they can say that you can undo that binding agreement, without any penalty, if you say you want to cancel your winning bid within an hour of the close of the auction.

To me, a bid being a binding legal agreement is a solid thing. What eBay seems to be saying is that it is a binding agreement up until a point that it is not a binding legal agreement.

I am trying to think of some other areas where this is the case.

For example, I go to a bank and get a loan for a house or a car and sign the contract then I have entered into a binding legal agreement. Even within an hour, if I decide I have made a mistake, I can not just back out of the deal. I have to go and sign some other legal papers to back out. I can't just throw my hands up and say I don't want to go through with what I agreed to.

David

If the contract you signed said you could throw up your hands and back out then you could. That is what is happening here. I guarantee ebay changes their rules to reflect their new stance. Personally I don't like it but I am not their CFO....

[thecatspajamas]

After rereading the thread on the ebay boards, I think there is some misunderstanding about what exactly happens. It's not that the buyer clicks cancel and is immediately off the hook. The way I am understanding it is that the buyer clicks Cancel, and then the seller either clicks Agree (off the hook) or Decline (buyer still has to pay). Very similar to the way it is now where a seller can click to cancel a sale but the buyer has to click Agree before it's cancelled.

IF I'm understanding that right, it's not as bad as my original assumptions, though I think it doers still send the wrong message to buyers. Also, buyer's (predictably spiteful) reaction aside, it's not clear what eBay's reaction to a seller denying a buyer's cancellation request will be.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

After rereading the thread on the ebay boards, I think there is some misunderstanding about what exactly happens. It's not that the buyer clicks cancel and is immediately off the hook. The way I am understanding it is that the buyer clicks Cancel, and then the seller either clicks Agree (off the hook) or Decline (buyer still has to pay). Very similar to the way it is now where a seller can click to cancel a sale but the buyer has to click Agree before it's cancelled.

IF I'm understanding that right, it's not as bad as my original assumptions, though I think it doers still send the wrong message to buyers. Also, buyer's (predictably spiteful) reaction aside, it's not clear what eBay's reaction to a seller denying a buyer's cancellation request will be.

I'd wager it would help to cause a "defect" at some point in time.

Whether a spiteful buyer, or Ebay's usual condescending "because I said so!".

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

After rereading the thread on the ebay boards, I think there is some misunderstanding about what exactly happens. It's not that the buyer clicks cancel and is immediately off the hook. The way I am understanding it is that the buyer clicks Cancel, and then the seller either clicks Agree (off the hook) or Decline (buyer still has to pay). Very similar to the way it is now where a seller can click to cancel a sale but the buyer has to click Agree before it's cancelled.

IF I'm understanding that right, it's not as bad as my original assumptions, though I think it doers still send the wrong message to buyers. Also, buyer's (predictably spiteful) reaction aside, it's not clear what eBay's reaction to a seller denying a buyer's cancellation request will be.

Thank you, Lance, for the clarification, because that is exactly how I was reading it.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I'd wager it would help to cause a "defect" at some point in time.

Whether a spiteful buyer, or Ebay's usual condescending "because I said so!".

I don't doubt that. But at least it puts us back somewhat closer to the current system where the buyer has to actually communicate with the seller to get out of a transaction than I had previously thought. Don't get me wrong, I wholeheartedly feel that giving the bidders any kind of inclination that they may not be held responsible for their bids is a big step in the wrong direction. And if someone is determined not to pay, no amount of cajoling or explaining to them why they should be responsible is going to change that (see my latest neg).

I just want to be sure I have the opportunity to talk some sense into those who may not be determined, but just ignorant and/or stupid.

Case in point: I once sold a set of 4 Star Wars comic books to a buyer who contacted me when they arrived saying, "Why did you only send me issues #1 and #3? Did you make a mistake? I want all 4 issues that I paid for." My reply was something like, "Umm, please don't take this the wrong way, but can you turn them over and check the back? The missing issues should have been bagged back-to-back with the issues you said you received" to which he responded, "Oh, nevermind. Thanks!" Had I not had the opportunity to communicate with this knucklehead, under the new return system, I would have gotten all 4 issues back in the original mailer loosely resealed with 1/2" cellophane tape, had to give a full refund including original shipping, billed for the return shipping, and gotten dinged for a defect all because he didn't think to flip the books over.

It never ceases to amaze me how eBay consistently underestimates sellers' ability to voluntarily provide good customer service, and overestimates the intelligence and honesty of the average buyer.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

Don't get me wrong, I wholeheartedly feel that giving the bidders any kind of inclination that they may not be held responsible for their bids is a big step in the wrong direction. And if someone is determined not to pay, no amount of cajoling or explaining to them why they should be responsible is going to change that (see my latest neg).

Oh, even worse was one of your neutrals because a press photo had the newspaper version of the photo attached to the back.

That's gotta be infuriating.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

That's gotta be infuriating.

You have no idea...

The neutral I got today, in French, which translates to "hello, thank you, all well received, see you soon (france)" was a nice backhanded compliment as well. Thanks, Frenchy

[glchen]

Regarding allowing buyers to cancel their purchases an hour after they win an auction, I would just think of this as ebay is trying to become more like Amazon or even Walmart/Target where buyers are allowed to return items. ebay wants to position itself as one big superstore which everything buyers want rather than just a big auction house / flea market. So think of it that way. Regarding binding contracts, I thought many states including California where ebay is located had a 2-3 day "cooling off" period where contracts could be cancelled. Obviously, I'm not a lawyer so this might have nothing to do with what ebay is doing.