Blyleven & Alomar get in the HOF

[Robextend]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof11/...ory?id=5991808

I agree with both inductions.

[barrysloate]

It's about time for Blyleven. Knew this would be his year.

[usernamealreadytaken]

"Sluggers Rafael Palmeiro, Jeff Bagwell and Mark McGwire all fell below the 50 percent mark."

Were'nt they all implicated in "juicing?"

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by usernamealreadytaken

"Sluggers Rafael Palmeiro, Jeff Bagwell and Mark McGwire all fell below the 50 percent mark."

Were'nt they all implicated in "juicing?"

I don't think anything substantial came out about Bagwell, but he is without a doubt going to be lumped in with the other guys.

[Ladder7]

Congrats to Bert... Alomar's a spoiled, dirty punk. Any of us could expect to be fired. This b!tch gets enshrined. That's one magic loogie.



Now this guy is worthy,

Longtime umpire John Hirschbeck would like to put to rest any lingering controversy about Robbie Alomar on the Baseball Writers Hall of Fame ballot. But one fateful moment has tainted him in a lot of people's minds and undoubtedly will prompt increased scrutiny of the "character/integrity/sportsmanship" clause on the ballot. That, of course, was the Sept. 27, 1996, incident in which Alomar, then with the Baltimore Orioles, became enraged at being called out on strikes by Hirschbeck and wound up spitting in the umpire's face. Hirschbeck wants it known that, in his mind, Alomar is a good person and absolutely a Hall of Fame player.

[Big Six]

Would people still feel the same way about Alomar if he hadn't fired that spit at the ump? And should we forgive him for that one transgression since the victim already did (many years ago to boot!)? Purely as a player, the guy is hall of fame caliber...and I'm really happy for Bert.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Ladder7

Congrats to Bert... Alomar's a spoiled, dirty punk. Any of us could expect to be fired. This b!tch gets enshrined. That's one magic loogie.



Longtime umpire John Hirschbeck would like to put to rest any lingering controversy about Robbie Alomar on the Baseball Writers Hall of Fame ballot. But one fateful moment has tainted him in a lot of people's minds and undoubtedly will prompt increased scrutiny of the "character/integrity/sportsmanship" clause on the ballot. That, of course, was the Sept. 27, 1996, incident in which Alomar, then with the Baltimore Orioles, became enraged at being called out on strikes by Hirschbeck and wound up spitting in the umpire's face. Hirschbeck wants it known that, in his mind, Alomar is a good person and absolutely a Hall of Fame player.

How would you like to be called a "f-ing, spic, fag" by an umpire? That's exactly what Hirschbeck said to Alomar. Hirschbeck actually got what he deserved that night. The two have made ammends. Alomar is absolutely a Hall of Famer

[Robextend]

Roberto Alomar* 523 90
Bert Blyleven* 463 79.7
Barry Larkin 361 62.1
Jack Morris 311 53.5
Lee Smith 263 45.3
Jeff Bagwell 242 41.7
Tim Raines 218 37.5
Edgar Martinez 191 32.9
Alan Trammell 141 24.3
Larry Walker 118 20.3
Mark McGwire 115 19.8
Fred McGriff 104 17.9
Dave Parker 89 15.3
Don Mattingly 79 13.6
Dale Murphy 73 12.6
Rafael Palmeiro 64 11
Juan Gonzalez 30 5.2
Harold Baines^ 28 4.8
John Franco^ 27 4.6
Kevin Brown^ 12 2.1
Tino Martinez^ 6 1
Marquis Grissom^ 4 0.7
Al Leiter^ 4 0.7
John Olerud^ 4 0.7
B.J. Surhoff^ 2 0.3
Bret Boone^ 1 0.2
Benito Santiago^ 1 0.2
Carlos Baerga^ 0 0
Lenny Harris^ 0 0
Kirk Reuter^ 0 0
Bobby Higginson^ 0 0
Charles Johnson^ 0 0
Raul Mondesi^ 0 0

[mr2686]

I don't know what the exchange of words was, but if you keep Alomar out for spitting on the Umpire, you better go back and take out Marichal for hitting Roseboro with a bat.

[Vol]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

How would you like to be called a "f-ing, spic, fag" by an umpire? That's exactly what Hirschbeck said to Alomar. Hirschbeck actually got what he deserved that night. The two have made ammends. Alomar is absolutely a Hall of Famer

I for one, did not know that Hirschbeck said that. A little over the line there.

Like the Zidane Head Butt..Just a little to much was said!

[Ladder7]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

How would you like to be called a "f-ing, spic, fag" by an umpire?

Pay me a fraction of what he made for working half a year and you and everyone else in Camden Yards could call me all the names in the book... I promise I won't have a hissy fit.

Robbie showed great spitsmanship. I can't wait to pull a 2011 Topps game-used loogie, to save for my great grandchildren to marvel at.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Ladder7

Pay me a fraction of what he made for working half a year and you and everyone else in Camden Yards could call me all the names in the book... I promise I won't have a hissy fit.

Robbie showed great spitsmanship. I can't wait to pull a 2011 Topps game-used loogie, to save for my great grandchildren to marvel at.

The umpire, who is also an employee of MLB with a substantial salary made a terrible comment. I think Alomar exhibited OUTSTANDING sportsmanship for his behavior Make a horrible statement, live with the consequences.

[Mikehealer]

Just curious, did Alomar say something derogatory to him first or did Hirschbeck
call him this out of the blue.

And how did Tino Martinez get 6 votes.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Did anyone suggest this one should keep him out of the HOF?
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=3588931

[glchen]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

How would you like to be called a "f-ing, spic, fag" by an umpire? That's exactly what Hirschbeck said to Alomar. Hirschbeck actually got what he deserved that night. The two have made ammends. Alomar is absolutely a Hall of Famer

From Wikipedia:

"On September 27, 1996, during a game against his former team, the Blue Jays, Alomar got into a heated argument over a called third strike with umpire John Hirschbeck and spat in his face. He defended himself by saying Hirschbeck had uttered a racial slur and that Hirschbeck had been bitter since one son had died of ALD and another had been recently diagnosed as well. Upon hearing this public disclosure of his private life, Hirschbeck had to be physically restrained from confronting Alomar in the players' locker room."

[Anthony S.]

So throwing only 60 shutouts during your career gets you into the Hall of Fame now??

[pclpads]

The BBWA is a total joke as far as being a credible voting entity. Three voting monkeys from the local zoo could do a better job. Apparently, Blyleven's biting curve just got better after last throwing it 20 years ago? Please! He should have been voted in long before now. It is a HOF embarrassment that it's taken this long. And how and why does Jim Kaat remain outside the hallowed walls of Cooperstown? Certainly the best pitcher not enshrined.

[tothrk]

If I stopped working so I could spit in the face of someone who made a horrible statement towards me, I would have to spit in the face of various people every day. He said, she said. My dad can beat up your dad. Boo Hoo. All these people need to grow up. Either you're going to keep out everyone who exhibits the behavior of a jackass or let in everybody whose accomplishments on the field warrant it.

[drc]

The umpire forgave Alomar years ago. That's good enough for me.

[bcbgcbrcb]

My two picks exactly

[oldjudge]

Blyleven was just a stat accumulator. He was never thought of as one of the best pitchers of his day and he should not be in the HOF. Alomar was inducted for his play, not his personality.

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

My two picks exactly

I already sent SGC a request to add Blyleven and Alomar to the Post War HOF RC set on the registry. I know you are all over this too Phil!

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Blyleven was just a stat accumulator. He was never thought of as one of the best pitchers of his day and he should not be in the HOF. Alomar was inducted for his play, not his personality.

I strongly disagree with the sentiment that Blyleven was a stat accumulator.

In his 16th season he won 17 games, and in his 17th season he won 15 and had a great postseason helping the Twins win the WS. In 1988 he had an off year (10-17) but then in his 19th season he went 17-5 with a 2.73 ERA. Then he played two more seasons winning 8 games each and retired. How is that an example of a "stat accumulator"?

[keithsky]

That HOF voting is such a joke. Seems like they do whatever it takes to put someone in every year so they can have a induction ceromony. These guys that go in after 10-14 years on the ballot and now all of a sudden they are HOF material. I agree Blylevven should be in there but what makes him go in now and not 14 years ago when first eligible. Same with Rice last year, on the ballot 14 years and last year HOF material. To me if you don't make it in after say 3 years your not HOF worthy. Your stats don't change. They are already set in stone the day you retire. Nothing about you changes. So 6 guys go in the HOF one year what's the problem with that as long as they are HOFers. It just ticks me off when I see guys go in after at least 10 years on the ballot. Get rid of the writers and do it a different way. The only good thing they did this year was to keep McGuire and Palmerio out

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Blyleven was just a stat accumulator. He was never thought of as one of the best pitchers of his day and he should not be in the HOF. Alomar was inducted for his play, not his personality.

Agreed. I would only have voted for Alomar. Blyleven is one step down from a Hall of Famer, nice longevity stats but the mere two all star selections speaks volumes.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Rob:

You would be right but I don't do the registry thing. I did pick up Alomar & Blyleven rookies on e-bay this past week in preparation though. I will be sending them in to SGC this week.

[Rickyy]

Alomar most definitely belongs he was dominant at his position both offensively and defensively.... that stuff with Hirshbeck...both guys are okay with each other now...so that's most important.

Blyleven..well I think there are others guys that are to me as equal or slightly less (Niekro, Sutton) who are in there...so I can go either way with his election...he was good for a long time...but never considered him a superstar...and as mentioned previously Jim Kaat I thought was just as good.

[Anthony S.]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Agreed. I would only have voted for Alomar. Blyleven is one step down from a Hall of Famer, nice longevity stats but the mere two all star selections speaks volumes.

I think the volumes the all-star game snubs speak is that spots on the all-star team go to undeserving players from teams who otherwise would go unrepresented. In 1984, Blyleven finished 3rd in the Cy Young voting and didn't make the all-star team. In 1989, he finished 4th in the Cy Young balloting and didn't make the all-star team.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Anthony S.

I think the volumes the all-star game snubs speak is that spots on the all-star team go to undeserving players from teams who otherwise would go unrepresented. In 1984, Blyleven finished 3rd in the Cy Young voting and didn't make the all-star team. In 1989, he finished 4th in the Cy Young balloting and didn't make the all-star team.

Since he played for mostly bad teams, you would think HE would have been that representative more times than two.

[martyogelvie]

The only thing that bothers me about the writers is how can a player garner only 15% his first year of eligibility (I think i read thats what Blyleven got his first year) to over 75% in 15 or so years??? I can see garnering a few more votes here or there but to go from 15 - 75 plus is asinine to me!

I think Alamor is a perfect example of how the system should work.. he came close but didn't make it his first year but was easly in his second.

I think that if your not in after 5 years, your off the ballot.. period. It certainly would help keep some of the marginal players that seem to get better over time out of the hall.

[tothrk]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Since he played for mostly bad teams, you would think HE would have been that representative more times than two.

I never looked at it that way. I was on the fence about Bert, but this is swaying me towards the notch below HOF camp. With players like Sutton, longevity bothers me. Just because your career lasted longer than a MEARS auction and you reached a magical number doesn't mean you should get in.

[doug.goodman]

Finally

[oldjudge]

Rob--The best he ever finished in a 22 year career was third in the Cy Young voting; he was in the top ten only four times and an All Star only twice. In eight of twenty-two seasons he was at or below .500 in W/L %. He won twenty games only once, but lost seventeen games four times. He was a very good pitcher, not a HOF pitcher.

[ChiefBenderForever]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Blyleven is one step down from a Hall of Famer, nice longevity stats but the mere two all star selections speaks volumes.

I don't see the all star selection as being relevant, plus isn't it the fans who voted them in anyways ? If Blyleven was on the Yankees then maybe he would've been on more all-star teams, but seeing he played with Carew who was basically on the All-star team every year and the small market Twins usually could only have one player, two tops if lucky on the team he couldn't be on the team more than twice.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by JohnnyHarmonica

I don't see the all star selection as being relevant, plus isn't it the fans who voted them in anyways ? If Blyleven was on the Yankees then maybe he would've been on more all-star teams, but seeing he played with Carew who was basically on the All-star team every year and the small market Twins usually could only have one player, two tops if lucky on the team he couldn't be on the team more than twice.

He played 16 seasons after he left the Twins the first time and I think Carew was gone during his second stint.

[usernamealreadytaken]

The H-of-F will (or should) go the way of the diner's club card...

[oldjudge]

Johnny--He didn't make the All Star team because he wasn't good enough. Regardless of where they play, HOFers should make at least one of three All Star teams. He is almost an exact match for Tommy John. In fact, Tommy John was better, and he is not in the HOF.

[ChiefBenderForever]

You guys might be right, but if that is the case and Bert isn't good enough for the HOF then they have a lot of cleaning out to do of others who shouldn't be there.

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Rob--The best he ever finished in a 22 year career was third in the Cy Young voting; he was in the top ten only four times and an All Star only twice. In eight of twenty-two seasons he was at or below .500 in W/L %. He won twenty games only once, but lost seventeen games four times. He was a very good pitcher, not a HOF pitcher.

He was a very, very good pitcher for a very, very long time. When you make your league's yearly top 10 list a collective 60+ times in the categories of wins, complete games, innings, strikeouts, shutouts and ERA, and win 287 games despite support of 2 or fewer runs in over 1/3 of your career starts, and finish your career 3rd in career strikeouts and 9th in shutouts, I think you go into the Hall.

Whenever the HOF becomes a place only for the greatest of the greats, then I'd be the first to vote Bert back out (along with 50-75 others).

Anyways, I'm very happy for Bert - I've had the pleasure of chatting with him, and followed his career from the very beginning, listening to his first start on the radio back in 1970. I aspired to be a pro baseball player at the time, and thought it was just too cool that a teenager just a few years older than me was pitching for my local team.

[Anthony S.]

In 1973 Blyleven finished 7th in the Cy Young voting.

There were 9 starting pitchers who finished in the top 10 of the voting that year (Hiller was the lone reliever). Of those 9:

-Blyleven had the 2nd lowest ERA, 2.52. Palmer was first at 2.40.
-Blyleven had the lowest Whip.
-Blyleven had the 2nd most strikeouts. That was the year Ryan had 383.
-Blyleven threw the most shutouts. Nine. Nine shutouts.
-Blyleven had the highest WAR (I'll admit I don't care about WAR, but it suits my argument here)

Wouldn't you assume that the guy with the 2nd lowest ERA, the lowest WHIP, the 2nd most strikeouts, the most shutouts, and the best WAR would finish higher than 7th?

But Blyleven went 20-17, so those 17 losses (I have no idea what his run support was like in the losses), must have knocked him down to 7th in the voting. Except Wilbur Wood, who had an ERA a full run higher than Blyleven, lost 20 games that year, and finished ahead of Blyleven in the Cy Young Voting.

[uffda51]

It looks like it's "Wait til Next Year" for Raul Mondesi.

Re: Blyleven. Warren Spahn won 20 games 13 times, 8 times leading the league in wins including five years in a row, and made 14 All-Star teams.

Bert won 20 gmes once, never lead the league in wins, and made three all-star teams.

He may well be the first player born in the Netherlands to make the Hall.

[cdn_collector]

Congrats Robbie!

Just like I said last year when Alomar didn't get in, I have a huge bias here. I'm thrilled he got into the HoF, and while I don't think there is any excuse ever to spit in somebody's face, I don't think it should come into the equation.

If we're going to start looking at character first, then there are some racists, bigots, cheaters, gamblers and even others that have spit in umpires faces that are already enshrined and need to have their plaques taken down.


Regards,

Richard.

[Peter_Spaeth]

IF Bert is in, Tommy John and Jim Kaat should be in too, they are very comparable and it is hard for me to justify including only one of them. That said, I would not vote for any of them, but would put them one rung down.

[barrysloate]

Jay- I think you are selectively picking stats of Blyleven's that are not among his best. Everything you cited suggests he was borderline, but when you consider the 287 wins and 3000+ strikeouts, I believe he is deserving.

It would be like saying Nolan Ryan doesn't belong because he had a mediocre won-lost record and never won a Cy Young, but conveniently leaving out the 5714 strikeouts and the 7 no-hitters. You have to look at the whole picture, not just those stats that fall a little short.

[mr2686]

Just to answer Anthony's question about what kind of run support Bert had in those 17 loses in 1973 (you can tell I'm board), the twins scored 2, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 2, 0, 2, 1, 3,1 ,2, 7, 3 and 0

[mayx2]

The fact that these guys got votes shows what a joke the voting is! Lou

Kevin Brown^ 12 2.1
Tino Martinez^ 6 1
Marquis Grissom^ 4 0.7
Al Leiter^ 4 0.7
John Olerud^ 4 0.7
B.J. Surhoff^ 2 0.3
Bret Boone^ 1 0.2
Benito Santiago^ 1 0.2

[Anthony S.]

The stat I simply can't get past when considered his HOF credentials is the 60 shutouts. Nowadays that's 2 full seasons of complete game shutouts. Not only is it 9th all-time, but the first 5 guys on the list were deadballers for either their entire career (Young, Mathewson, Alexander) or for the part of their career during which they registered the vast majority of their shutouts (Walter Johnson, Pete Alexander).

The only players whose careers started after 1911 who've pitched more shutouts are Spahn (63), Ryan (61), and Seaver (61). That's heady company. Ryan needed nearly 100 more starts than Blyleven to get that extra shutout, but then again he didn't have very good stuff.

And it's not a tortured statistic like "quality start," it means that 60 times in his career the opposing team couldn't do jack squat against him. More often than Gibson, Carlton, Palmer, Feller, Perry, Niekro, etc, etc., etc.

[chaddurbin]

i'm relishing the blyleven election as much as i hated the jim rice's. thank you rich lederer.

blyleven can't control what his teammates do when he pitches, how many runs he gets, the park he plays in, the freakish ball bounces...but the things he can control he was very good at, and he did it for a LONG time (which is better than a short time). his counting stats are similar to the 8 guys below (and even better in pitching-controlled stats like bb/9, so/9, hr/9), so if he doesn't belong then take these 8 guys out also.

Don Sutton (914) *
Gaylord Perry (909) *
Fergie Jenkins (890) *
Robin Roberts (876) *
Tom Seaver (864) *
Early Wynn (844) *
Phil Niekro (844) *
Steve Carlton (840) *

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Jay- I think you are selectively picking stats of Blyleven's that are not among his best. Everything you cited suggests he was borderline, but when you consider the 287 wins and 3000+ strikeouts, I believe he is deserving.

It would be like saying Nolan Ryan doesn't belong because he had a mediocre won-lost record and never won a Cy Young, but conveniently leaving out the 5714 strikeouts and the 7 no-hitters. You have to look at the whole picture, not just those stats that fall a little short.

I agree. In another thread I used Nolan Ryan as an example of using certain stats to question his HOF status (for the record I of course think he is a 1st ballot HOF).

Nolan Ryan had 9 seasons where he was a 500 or worse pitcher and he never won a CY Young award. Blyleven also had a much better K/BB ratio.

You really have to look at the whole picture. All Star games and Cy Young awards are a bit overrated IMO. Marichal never won a Cy Young award!!!!

[calvindog]

The two AS games for Blyleven are really troubling but Anthony makes a good point about him finishing third in the CY voting and not making the AS team that year. But only four top-ten finishes for the Cy Young? That's awful. Sutton didn't fare much better, making four AS games and had five top ten CY finishes. Tommy John: four AS games and four CY top ten finishes.

Jim Rice, who many on this board whined about for making the HOF, had eight AS games and six top ten MVP finishes including one MVP award. And Barry Larkin made 12 AS teams and won an MVP award. He'll get in eventually but it's hard to argue that he wasn't at least as HOF-worthy as Blyleven.