The enigmatic T206 350/460 series....theory, checklist & backs

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Continuing from the 150 & 350 Series T206 threads, here are some thoughts on the 350/460 Series cards.

This series of 61 cards....31% of which are HOFers (19).....has always been somewhat of an enigma. These
cards were printed with more different T-backs (15-25) than any other series of cards in the T206 set. The
Red Cobb leads the pack with as many 25 various backs.

Initially, the 350 Series was issued as a group of 270 cards by the Spring of 1910. This is evident, in that a
complete Sovereign set does not have a "350/460" series. But it does suggest the start of a 350/460 series
in that the 6 super-prints were printed with Sovereign 350 and with the Sovereign 460 backs. These 6 Sub-
jects are the only 350/460 cards in the Sovereign set.

Subsequently, American Lithograph selected 55 more cards from the 270 cards in the 350 series and exten-
ded them into the 460 series press runs. Thus, these 55 cards were printed with Piedmont 460 Factory 25
and 42....and, Sweet Caporal 460 Factory 25 and 42. Note, none of these 55 cards are found with "Sweet
Caporal 460 Factory 30 N.Y." backs. These cards were printed with this back; however, never issued since
that New York Factory ceased production in 1911 due to the impending ATC break-up. Instead, these Fac-
tory 30 backs were overprinted with a scroll & "Factory 42 N.C." as Sweet Cap. production was transferred
to the L&M plant in Durham, NC. By extending these 55 cards into the 460 series, they were also inserted
into the following 10 cigarette brand packs from late 1910 to early 1911......

American Beauty 460
Broad Leaf 460
Cycle 460
Lenox
Piedmont 460/42
Red Hindu
Sweet Cap 460/25
Sweet Cap 460/42 overprint
Sweet Cap 460/42
Uzit

Shown here are 9 of the 19 HOFers in 350/460 Series......





Checklist......61 cards

Ames (hands above head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Chance (yellow potrait).......super-print
Chase (blue portrait)..........super-print
Chase (dark cap)...............super-print
Cobb (red portrait).............super-print
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy (bat)
Davis (A's)
Crawford (bat)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Wash.-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky).........super-print
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Mathewson (dark cap).........super-print
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands/knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (bat)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right)
White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Willis (throwing)
Wiltse (throwing)
CYoung (glove)


Scans of all the backs that are available in this Series will be shown in the next post on this thread.


The front/back permutations in this series are mind-boggling....all questions regarding this complex 350/460
Series are welcomed ?



TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Tim

Ted,

Isn't Buck Herzog Boston National part of this set?

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Herzog (Boston) is in the 460-only Series. I will follow this thread with that series next week,

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Tim

I misunderstood. Thanks for the correction.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim Rivera

There is a real weird rule breaker with Nichols bat. It has the no frame 350 AB which means it should belong on this 350/460 list but there is no 460 Nichols bat.
All cards on this list (350/460) that were printed with 350 AB have no frame.

I know you know the reason why Ted Z. You explain these rules and reasons way better than me.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

JIM R

As you said, the Simon Nicholls (batting) card is a rule breaker. Referring to the 350 thread,
Simon Nicholls (bat) is on the 350 list. Although this card doesn't have a FRAME design with
its American Beauty 350 back....as is possible on all the 213 Subjects in the 350 Series.



Here is my theory as to why this is.....this Nicholls card was designed to be in the 350/460
Series. As, all 55 cards in this series were printed with the American Beauty 350 (No FRAME)
back. However, Nicholls Major League career abruptly ended April 25th 1910, when he was
traded to Cleveland. He refused to play there; and, went back to his farm in Maryland.
Jack Dunn, Mgr. of Baltimore (Eastern Lge.) contacted Nicholls and he continued his baseball
career playing and scouting for Jack Dunn.

Therefore, having been designed for the 350/460 series, the Nicholls card was never exten-
ded into the 460 series. So, since Nicholls is not found with a 460 back, this card has been
classified as a 350 Series card. But, I'm convinced that this card was the 56th card intended
for the 350/460 Series.


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Shown here are 12 of the 24 possible backs that the 350/460 Series cards can be found with.





TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim Rivera

I think you have forgot more than I will ever know. Your posts are truly great reading. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge.

I knew the part about Nicholls refusing to play after the trade but not about scoting and playing for Dunn. You know how I like the history of the Baltimore team and Jack Dunn.

One more fact to add-his name is spelled 2 different ways on each 206 card. One l and 2 ls and I have no clue why. This does happen more than a few times in the set.

JR

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob Manning

Ted:

Will you please scan and post a Piedmont 460 back? I have over 600 T206s and have never seen one.

Thanks.

Bob

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

My understanding is that the double-L spelling is correct. The T206 designers spelled his
name correctly in his 1st series card and then they misspelled his name in the 2nd series
card.

Here is the link to a really nice write-up on Simon Nicholls from SABR......

http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?a=v&v=l&bid=15&pid=10382


Best regards,

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

Always fun to read your post Ted.. thanks again.

When are you gonna put all your research to pen (print)?

Marty

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Here you go guy....the very rare PIEDMONT 460 "Factory 42, 4th Dist., N.C." back. The blue printing is lighter
on this back than the normal Factory 25 backs.





TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Here are the other HOFers in the 350/460 Series......




Whoops....I think I left one out. This scan and the 1st scan do not total 19 HOFers ?

Who can guess the 19th HOFer ? ?



TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim Rivera

Tinker bat on is the missing HOFer.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob Manning

Ted;

Thanks. I'd about concluded it was shorthand for 350-460. Like this:






Thanks again.

Bob

[Archive]

Posted By: Don

I was looking at the "Super Set" thread plus these 150/350/350-460 threads and I'm not sure I follow the math. Specifically piedmont.

Super set says there are 462 subjects with the piedmont 350 back. That obviously would have to include 150/350 and 350/460 subjects as well as SLers.

Looking at these threads though, I didn't come up with 462 but probably didn't add them correctly either.

What's the breakdown for piedmont 350 backs as far as numbers in each series: 150/350, 350 only, 350/460, and SL?

Thanks,

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Here is the math....to arrive at a maximum of 459 possible PIEDMONT 350 backs:

141....of the 156 cards in the 150/350 Series (-Magie, -Plank, -Wagner, -12 "150-only" cards)

270....all of the cards in the 350 and 350/460 Series

.48....the 48 Southern Leaguers
----
459


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Don

Thanks Ted. I enjoy your research posts. Keep 'em coming.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The term "6 super-prints" has been noted several times in this thread. For those unfamiliar with these T206
cards....they are the most available cards in the T206 set. And, can be found with as many as 24 different
T-backs......




TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Nope, it's not that Tinker....he is in the 460-only Series.

Anyhow, Tinker is already represented with his "bat off shoulder" pose in this 350/460 series.

Try again ?


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: J Hull

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim Rivera

My Tinker bat on is Lenox but I thought it was avalible with 350 backs. So my next guess would be Griffith bat.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim Rivera

When I was doing my research Mr. Hull beat me to it.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Griffith (bat) is the 19th HOFer in the 350/460 Series.

Jamie,
Thanks for posting your scan of him. I forgot to post mine in the last array of 9 Hofer's.


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Very IMPORTANT to note here. The following 7 backs are additional ONLY to the six Super-Print cards.
These backs are NEVER found with the other 55 cards in the 350/460 Series. The Sweet Caporal back
is a Factory 30, NY.





The T206 Super-Prints (very appropriately coined by Scot Reader).



With the exception of the American Beauty 350 (no frame) and American Beauty 460 (no frame), the
10 other backs in this array are common to all 55 cards in the 350/460 Series and the 6 super-prints.
The American Beauty 350 (with frame) back was printed on the 6 super-prints.





Here, I have displayed the tougher 18 of the 24 different backs found in the 350/460 Series cards.
For the sake of completeness, in a following post the remaining backs will be shown.


P.S.....I included that 1910 COUPON back just to "bug" Leon.....but, you know what guys and gals,
actually the 6 super-prints are also in this COUPON set....these 6 images are all over the place


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Here is one more very tough 350/460 Series back......

Lee Behrens is our guy here, as I believe he has a near complete CYCLE 460 sub-set.





TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The following T-backs complete the list of all possible backs available on the cards in the
350/460 Series......

BROAD LEAF 460
OLD MILL
PIEDMONT 350 Fac. 25
PIEDMONT 460 Fac. 25
SWEET CAP 350 Fac. 25
SWEET CAP 350 Fac. 30
SWEET CAP 460 Fac. 25
SWEET CAP 460 Fac. 42


In summary, as illustrated in the above posted scans, a grand total of 21 different backs
are possible on the 55 regular cards in the 350/460 Series.

Furthermore, a grand total of 25 different backs are possible on the 6 super-print cards in
the 350/460 Series.



Finally, let's consider the extremely rare BROAD LEAF 460 back. Approximately 50% of the
cards in the 350/460 Series can be found with the BL 460 back.


"


Here are the confirmed BL 460 cards......

Baker
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (red portrait)....................super-print
Cobb (bat off)
Davis (A's)
Dougherty (arms in air)
Downey (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (Chicago-bat)...................super-print
Griffith (bat)
Johnson (pitching
Joss (pitching)
Konetchy (glove low)
Mathewson (dark cap)................super-print
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hds/knees)
Reulbach (glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (fielding)
Stahl (glove)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (New York)
Willis (throwing)
CYoung (glove)


If anyone has any new inputs to add to this BROAD LEAF 460 list, please post it here ?
We are always looking for more of these rare gems.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Consolidated BROAD LEAF 460 info into above post.


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Tim

Ted-

Are there confirmed lists for the 460 series for other backs like the BL460 you posted above? Uzit, Lenox, Cycle 460, etc?

Sorry if I'm jumping ahead. I'm working on Herzog (Boston) and wondering if I'm chasing a few ghosts.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

TIM

The Herzog (Boston) card is in the 460-only Series; and, there is a very low probability that it was printed
on a BROAD LEAF 460 back.

Check out....my 460-only thread were I note that the only BROAD LEAF 460 card that has been confirmed
is Kleinow (Boston). And, a possible Schaefer (Washington) card exists with the BL 460 back.

Anyhow, Herzog has been confirmed with the following backs......

CYCLE 460
EPDG
OLD MILL
PIEDMONT 460 Fac. 25
POLAR BEAR
SOVEREIGN 460
SWEET CAP 460 Fac. 25
SWEET CAP 460 Fac. 30
SWEET CAP 460 Fac. 42
SWEET CAP 460 Fac. 42 (overprint)
TOLSTOI

Also, there could be a LENOX and a UZIT.


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The very rare DRUM backs can be found on the following 350/460 Subjects (39 cards)

Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Burch (fielding)
Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Cobb (bat off)
Crawford (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Wash-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (two hands)
Johnson (glove at chest)
Jordan (bat)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lake (St Louis-no ball)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Mathewson (dark cap)
McQuillan (bat)
Murphy (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Seymour (throwing)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (New York)
Wagner (bat/right shoulder)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)

Any new inputs to add to this list are greatly appreciated.


TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Only one card remains unconfirmed.....Tinker (bat off shoulder)

Ames (hands above head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Chance (yellow potrait).......super-print
Chase (blue portrait)..........super-print
Chase (dark cap)...............super-print
Cobb (red portrait).............super-print
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy (bat)
Davis (A's)
Crawford (bat)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Wash.-fielding)
Evers (bat-yellow sky).........super-print
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Mathewson (dark cap).........super-print
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chi)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands/knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (bat)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (fielding)
Wagner (bat on right)
White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Willis (throwing)
Wiltse (throwing)
CYoung (glove)



TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

OK.....54 of the 55 cards in the 350/460 Series have been confirmed, let's see if we can find this 55th card
with this rare back.

T-Rex TED