O/T - Henderson, Rice make HOF

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Posted By: Scott Sarian

Henderson was a no-brainer, but Sox fans like myself are happy to see Jim Rice finally make it!

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Posted By: Jay

I'm a Yankee fan, but I applaud Rice's election to the HOF. He deserved it!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Fair result. And Dawson is closing in...

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Posted By: Anthony N.

And McGwire got less votes than last year.

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Posted By: peter ullman

Good for the both of them...as a kid...Jim Rice's RC...1975 Topps was one of the most wanted RC's around at that time...he was a feared hitter...kinda reminds me a bit of Manny Ramirez...from a yankee fan's perspective!

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Posted By: PC

Rice before Dawson?

Ridiculous.

http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080107/SPORTS/801070320

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Posted By: davidcycleback

The most succinct good argument against Rice going into the Hall was a from sportswriter who said, "He was a home run hitter who hit only 382 home runs."

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Posted By: S Gross

Henderson's bunt double is still one of the greatest baseball memories I've had !!









(Hard bunt splits past charging pitcher and first baseman. Ball rolls to second baseman's position, who is off covering first, beautiful)

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Dawson certainly had longevity (and, therefore, numbers) compared to Rice; however, Rice was a much more feared batter in his prime.

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Posted By: TONY GALOVICH

HENDERSON 94.8% of votes

Rice 76.4% just made it, finally

Dawson & Blyleven 67.0% & 62.7 wait till next yr

tommy john 31.7% maybe veterans committe will think differently

McGwire 21.9% will he ever make it?? hopefully not

Dave Parker 15.0% doesn't look good for the future

Mattingly - A Lock HOF'er if your a Yankee Fan, yet only 11.9%

dale murphy, Another Lock for Atlanta fans , 11.5% but like Mattingly induction seems a faint dream now

Voters have spoke,

But it's time to go to A
One chance Vote
Either you get voted in on 1st chancOr forget
A HOF'er is A HOF'er
On 1st Vote
Not on 15th opportunity Like Kiner

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Posted By: PC

Rice could hit, for a time. But he has no Gold Gloves, and couldn't run -- several years with zero stolen bases.

In addition to his bat, Dawson had 8 consecutive Gold Gloves, and three years in the top 10 in the NL in stolen bases (with a bad knee).

I'm trying to see the logic as to why Rice, and why not Dawson, and I just don't get it. But then I don't have a vote, and there are other deserving guys who aren't in. But now that Rice is in, it appears that Dawson will make it in the next year or two.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

My opinion is Rice shouldn't be in. However, he was a legitimate star for a period so his election doesn't offend me. With Rice getting in, a comparison should make people appreciate how great was his contemporary Eddie Murray.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

PC, sadly defense and speed take a back seat to HRs and RBIs when two big bats are compared. It's not right, but it is what it is.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Henderson was a lock...but why on earth did it take Rice this long? What's the difference between this year and all the previous ones?

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Posted By: PC

You are right Jeff.

And since Rice has made it, it must only be a matter of time before his 1970s NL counterpart -- Greg Luzinski -- makes it. They are not that different!

Can you imagine?

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

I remember both Rice and Henderson fondly... glad to see them both make it.

PC,

Dave Kingman has to go before Luzinski

Kingman was the ultimate, all or nothing hitter.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Baseball fans judging a player solely by hitting statistical charts reminds me of the old joke about the guy on his hands and knees at night looking underneath a street lamp for his car keys. He knew the keys were lost a block over, but the light was better under the lamp.

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Posted By: quan

david i completely agree with you, judging by modern stats rice should be nowhere near cooperstown. his home/away splits are horrible, he benefitted from playing half his games at fenway and some good red sox teams. even then his stats were still marginal. hard to quantify that "most feared hitter of his era" thing though, whatever that means.

edited: can't wait for hof door to open for dale murphy, dave parker, etc. next...

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Posted By: Jimi

I think Tim Raines should be in the HOF. You might have read somewhere that Raines reached base more times in his career than Tony Gwynn, and that's true: 3,977 times for Raines, 3,955 for Gwynn. Did you know Raines reached base 503 more times than Dawson? That Raines is 41st on the all-time list and Dawson is 96th?

You might have read somewhere that Dawson finished his career with a .323 on-base percentage -- exceptionally low for a 1980s outfielder/Hall of Fame candidate -- and that's true, too. Did you know Dawson's .482 career slugging percentage isn't anything special, either? Did you know Dawson's 119 career OPS-plus (OPS adjusted for league and home field) is worse than Raines' 123? Did you know that for all the talk about Dawson's impressive combination of power and speed, Raines stole nearly 500 more bases and is 3rd all-time? In my mind he may very well be the greatest lead off hitter of all-time not named Henderson.

Playing in Montreal certainly didn't help those players though for sure. Though Rice only got 30% of the vote back in his first year.

Who knows....

Jimi

Always looking for T222 Fatimas!

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Posted By: Bryan Long

Jimi! Teacher is obviously not taking enough of your time lately. I felt like I was reading a very upset encyclopedia on Dawson and Haines for a second
Actually, if you look at some of the poeple they are letting into the Hall these days I am a winning bet to get into the Hall in the next couple of years. Of course, you and I have spent many long hours discussing my our feelings on the Hall of Fame. I personally think they should shut the thing down and start over.

.

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Posted By: Phil

Rule #1 when deciding on a Hall-of-Famer is that if you have to think about it for more than 5 seconds, then that player is NOT a HOFer.

The Hall of Fame has been watered down dramatically in recent years. It should have been set aside for the likes of Ruth, Cobb, Matthewson, Aaron, etc., etc.

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Posted By: PC

I didn't know any of those things about Rock Raines. But I do know that if a .482 career slugging percentage isn't anything special, then .425 is less special.

And I believe Dawson has about 600 more RBI's, 300 more HRs, 1 more ROY and 8 more Gold Gloves than Raines (who has none), although Andre does have fewer drug-related arrests than Rock.



And I also know that, wherever they are, Al Oliver and Ron Santo are PO'd today!!

[edited to add: to be fair, I have no idea if Raines was ever arrested for drugs]

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Posted By: Dave Williams

I see Harold Baines got 5.9% of the votes. He was one of my all time favorite players.

I don't see Harold as a Hall of Famer in any way, however, were it not for the baseball strike of 1981 and 1994, he would have had 3000 hits and 400 homers ensuring his election as he finished 134 hits and 16 homeruns from those milestones.

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Posted By: macboube

to PC stating that Santo and Oliver are PO'd.............Maybe one could agree with Santo not being in, but Al Oliver? Are you kidding me? Everyone in baseball knows he got 2,900 hits and 2,899 of 'em were with two outs, nobody on, late in the game, and his team down by 5 or more runs. Al Oliver, please.............Elrod Hendricks deserves to be in ahead of AO.

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Posted By: pas

If Joe Gordon can make it with 1530 hits and a .268 average, then why not Jim Rice? How about Jose Valentin and Bret Boone, the two players statistically closest to Gordon according to Baseballreference.com? Let em all in, Dawson, Murphy, Blyleven, John, Kaat, Gary Carter (oh, wait, he's already there). Surely there must be someone who hit over .300 from the 30s and 40s who's been overlooked? How about Gil Hodges? In. Vada Pinson? In. Dave Parker? Why not. Ron Santo? Sure, and let in Ken Boyer with him. How about Luis Tiant to join his teammate Rice? How about Guidry and Mattingly, always good to have Yankees? In my opinion the Hall to date has been way too underinclusive.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Amen, Phil... too many, nay three many are already in. I should never have become a place for really good ballplayers. I can live with Rice's selection, and tolerate Gordon's.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Phil, Rule #2 for deciding if a player is worthy of the HOFer: If your argument for his inclusion is comparing him to players who don't deserve to be in the Hall but are, he's not a Hall of Famer. All you've really argued is that your player doesn't belong in the Hall either.

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Posted By: PC

Peter -- you left Don Baylor and Stuffy McInnis off the list.

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Posted By: Fred C

I love HOF voting time... we get to hear the names of a lot of good players that probably deserve to be in the hall and we hear a lot of names of players that probably shouldn't be in the hall...

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Posted By: Neal

VERY HAPPY FOR BOTH OF THEM! WELL DESERVED!

JIM RICE IS A VERY NICE GUY HAPPEN TO MEET HIM A FEW TIMES IN MY UNCLE'S OPTOMETRIST OFFICE. GOT A FEW SIGNED ITEMS FROM HIM!!

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Posted By: Jimi

How about Wilbur Wood? Heck he had 4 straight seasons in the 70s with 20 wins and one of those years with a 1.91 ERA.

I always thought that the 1968 Topps Ryan RC had a lot of experience on it.....huh? Heck the other guy on the card is Jerry Koosman, who played 19 years in the bigs. That means there is 46 years of experience on that one card alone! Koosy won 20+ games twice with 222 wins and had over 2,500 K's. So let's see that's like 530+ wins and 8,200 K's on one card. Not too shabby!

All in fun on with Koosman and Wood, but I had to bring it up since someone told me yesterday they actually felt that since Bill Matlock had won the National League batting title 4 times in his career that he deserved in the Hall.

Just because you string a handful of good years together doesn't mean you get put in the Hall.

Jimi

Always looking for T222 Fatimas!

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Posted By: Michael Steele

Congrats to Jim Rice! What a year the Gold Dust Twins had in 75. Rice and Lynn, 75 Topps Rookies on a team that was magic that year. Awesome.

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Posted By: Ken McMillan

Henderson and Rice...... great choices however, Leaving Dawson and Lee Smith out, pretty lame in my opinion.

Kmac

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Posted By: Steve

It's Bill Madlock.


Steve

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Posted By: Bryan Long

Matlock! My parents loved that show

.

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Posted By: Alan

I agree with Phil. The HOF is supposed to be the very best. Not good players or pretty good players, a few great years, etc,... They should start over & only have the very best (Ruth, Mays, Aaron, Clemente, etc,...)

I was a big fan of all these guys mentioned in the thread (Rice, Dawson, etc,...), but none should be in.

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Posted By: Fred C

So, 28 voters didn't think Rickey was good enough to be a first ballot HOFer... I guess there must be something amongst the writers that says NOBODY, no matter how deserving, can be a unanimous inductee. I suppose if Ruth, Cobb, Johnson, Matty and Wagner weren't good enough then nobody should be. Bull....

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Posted By: Bob

Bert Blyleven is #5 all-time in strikeouts and is the only pitcher in the top 16 who is not in the Hall. Damn shame....

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Posted By: Rhys

Funny how the Hall of Fame loves to induct current guys who you have to make multi-page arguments for to justify their merits, while completely turning a blind eye to 19th century and early 20th century players who are complete no-brainers like Pete Browning, Harry Stovey, Tony Mullane etc. If those guys had similar numbers but played 20 years later they would have been inducted in the 1940's. They should have a seperate wing like they have for the AAGPBL for the more current players and call it the "Hall of pretty good players you might have seen play in your lifetime". I would vote for Alvin Davis and Jay Buhner as first ballot inductees in that wing!

Rhys

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Posted By: Bryan Long

After hearing Bert Blyleven's comments on air this morning with Mike and Mike I would not be disappointed if he never makes it in. He continues to cry and wine about all of his accomplishments. He he seems interested in is making the large paycheck that comes with being in the Hall. Close your eyes and say the name - if you can't answer yes in 5 seconds or less then the answer is no in my opinion.

.

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Posted By: Dustin

...is Dale Murphy NOT in the HOF and gary carter is in the HOF? What a joke! Henderson deserves every vote and maybe a few more, but every year, I see a post about the HOF and have to vent some. SERIOUSLY - gary carter and not DALE MURPHY???

Thank you for your time.
Dustin Thompson
jdtcards
dustinthompson@comcast.net

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Posted By: Fred C

Rhys,

I think the HOF needs a "pioneers" category that would include the people you named and add Caruthers, Van Haltren, Bob Mathews and a few others.

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Posted By: LenK

imo Blyleven absolutely belongs in the hall....287 wins...over 3700 ks.....60 shutouts!....in the a.l. with designated hitters....wicked curveball....good lifetime e.r.a.....go Bert!...waitin for you next year

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Posted By: Roy Miller

A lot of it has to do with the media who vote for the HOF. If Dawson had played for NYY or the Red Sox, he would be in. If Rice had played for the Rangers, Royals, etc., he'd still be out.

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Posted By: Bob

Roy- I absolutely agree but the last time I said this the New Yorkers on the board lambasted me
Tony Oliva, and especially Bert Blyleven belong.
By the way, which new players are eligible next year? I was wondering if it were going to be another sparse year like this one for stars and maybe Bert has a shot, much like Rice did this year...

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Posted By: Phil

Next year is pretty sparse. The only 2 players to hit the ballot for the first time next year that have a shot IMHO are Roberto Alomar and Barry Larkin. I don't think either will make it the first year. Other longshots next year are: Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff & Andres Gallaraga.

As I have used the "5 Second Rule" in the past, none of the above should be HOFers, but Alomar and Larkin may eventually make it.

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Posted By: quan

bert is a hof'er.

imo this 15 yr thing is ridiculous. make it a one and done. voters have 5 years to do research/decide already. if you're not got enough the first time then tough luck.

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Posted By: Jim VB

http://web.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers/


The right hand column has the list of eligible players, by year, from now until 2014 (more can be added to 2014 still.) The next 3-4 years look pretty lean so Bert stands a good chance. In 2013 the candidates include: Biggio, Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, Schilling and Sosa. That year will be very telling about the impact of the steroids era.

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Posted By: Fred C

2013 looks like a bumper crop of first time HOF eligible players. Bonds, Clemens and Sosa are all on the 2013 list.

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Posted By: Jim VB

Based solely on the understandable steroids bias to voting, I think Piazza is the only lock that year.



Edited to add: Rob is correct (below). Biggio should be on my list also.