OT A few Opinions Needed

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Posted By: James Gallo

Ok guys so for the most part this is off topic but I wanted to get a diverse group of opinions on an issue I am having and the make-up of this board suits it perfectly.

Here is the deal. I agreed to a 4 month payment plan on 3/11 for an $1200 item. As of the beginning of December there was still $255 left on the balance. The payments had been inconsistent and the communication was not the best but I was dealing with some know in the community so I let it go and didn't push.

At the beginning of December I set a deadline of December 22nd without payment and stated that if I did not have the balance of the payment in hand I would send what he had paid back minus 20%.

On the 19th I get an emailing saying a MO will go out the next day on the 21st I get an email saying the money order was sent. Well the week goes by and no money order. It is not 4 business days past due and I sent him an email stating I have had it and upon receiving the last payment I will be sending him that plus what he has paid minus the 20%.

I am now getting jee I didn't think it would be a problem since I let you know it was coming and what is the 20% crap I don't buy it send me back all my money.

So my question is should I send him back all his money or am I justified in keeping the 20%. He won't sue me as he is in CA and I am in PA but do I have a legal foot to stand on in a court?

This is a deal that went 5 months longer then it was supposed to am I just supposed to accept that the buyer can change the deal but the seller is helpless.

I welcome all thoughts and this is NOT a card I sold at all.

Thanks

James G

Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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Posted By: Paul

I wouldn't charge the 20% penalty if it wasn't part of the original deal. I would refund all the money, & just avoid making a similar deal in the future.

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Posted By: leon

This is just me so take it from that view point. The deal you are doing with that person certainly didn't go planned as expected. What would you do if you were in that person's place?

I would refund the whole amount and be done with it....but that is taking the high road, as I usually try to do, but I do think you are entitled to something for your grief and elongated situation....regards

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Posted By: Frank L.

From what has occured in my profession, and having many people that dont keep their end of an agreement, I would simply refund the whole amount. NO penalty. In the long run, the penalty(even if deserved) should be avoided. I am very often at high risk for lawsuit, and based on this envirnoment, I would rather avoid pushing something that could lead in that direction.

I agree about the high road. We SHOULD TAKE THE HIGH ROAD.

F.L.

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Posted By: Doug

It sounds like he knew in advance that if he didn't pay you were going to keep the 20%, but since "The payments had been inconsistent and the communication was not the best" I wouldn't have been surprised to have an issue with the last one. If it was me I would probably just give the money back to avoid the hassle and avoid doing any payment plans in the future.

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Posted By: James Gallo

So what do I get for my 5 extra months of grief and emails and the need to resell a 1200 item if not the 20%.

I feel like I got racked over the coals and that the buyer shouldn't be the only one to change the terms of an agreement.

James G

Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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Posted By: barrysloate

James- I always believe in communication. Tell him that while you are inclined to end the deal and return all his money, you feel you have been put out as you held a valuable card for almost a full year and will be getting nothing in return.

You may then ask him if he could consummate the deal and pay the balance in a short period of time, or if he is unable, would he be willing to give you a little something for your trouble. Maybe the two of you can agree on a small penalty, rather than just deciding on your own that 20% is fair (suggest perhaps $100, and see what he says).

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Posted By: Bruce Dorskind

Assuming you have the item, refund his money less a 20% penalty
and publish his name.



Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: leon

Do you really want to publish names of non paying bidders? Please answer on the forum and not in private email.....

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Posted By: andy becker

has the item you sold devalued since you sold it? if it has, then i would keep the money you received and let the balance trickle in when it does.

if it hasn't, i would return the money in full and move on.

either way, in would not take out 20% unless it was mutually agreed apon previously.

good luck.

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Posted By: Richard Cline - RC

Hi James - While you have certainly been inconvenienced and I'm sure it has been a hassle, this guy has basically given you an interest free $945 loan. I agree with some of the others in that I would give him his money back and then no longer deal with him.

I don't think it's worth any more time and energy on your part and if there was one buyer for your item, I'm sure there will be another.

Just my 2 cents.

RC

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Posted By: D. Bergin

How valuable is the item now?

Do you believe he actually did send out the final payment?

Would the item be easy to resell at $1200?

I would probably give it another week before I did anything, especially if he's so adamant he already sent the money out.

Some might call it an interest free loan but after 9 months it simply becomes an expense if you weren't planning on having to pay it back. Merchandise has been tied up for a long period of time. Why is the seller expected to take on the full burden of this transaction?

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Posted By: James Gallo

Interesting thought, however does that loan account for the extra interest I had to pay on my credit card for the past 5 months when I didn't have the money. The payments came in drib and drabs over the course of 9 months so it wasn't like he gave me a $945 and let it sit for 9 months.

I will probably end up eating it all, as most of the response has been I may be right and even deserving of some type of monies but that the moral high road is to give the money back. The funny thing is that when I am on the other end of this will I get the same courtesy of a moral high road, I don't think so.

Again this was not a card at all but a Toy Item.

James G

Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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Posted By: James Gallo

I don't think this will be an easy sell at $1200 in today's market, but I don't think it has been devalued, just depends on who is buying.

Yes I think he sent it out, but isn't the purpose of a deadline just that. If all the deadlines in are life passed without any consequence we would have chaos.

I think he should have some type of punishment and I guess that will have to be not getting the item, it just doesn't seem enough when I had been counting on his payments.


James G

Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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Posted By: Steve Murray

I guess it might depend on what you have in the item. Also, has the buyer unequivocally requested a refund rather than the item?

$945 in hand may be worth it. Don't know, but if so send him the item and chaulk it off to experience.

If the buyer wants to pay the balance, whenever, wait for it.

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Posted By: Joann

Andy got right to where I was mentally headed, which is that maybe any change in value should be considered?

Normally I would say send him his money back 100% and try not to be understandably cynical the next time someone asks to buy on time. However, we are in a very unusual economic situation, and if the item has lost significant value over the time you have held it, I think that keeping 20% may not be that unreasonable.

You could have sold it 9 months ago for full amount at whatever value it was, but instead allowed someone an opportunity to buy a card that he may not have been able to otherwise. That is a good deed, and it's hard to see fairness if your good deed costs you money. I'm not talking about splitting hairs here on any loss in value, just some broad thinking.

In my sheltered little impossible-world, the buyer would be willing to at least have that conversation.

Joann

ETA: Oops. Posted this while James was posting about no significant devaluation. Nevermind.

Edited again, because 'too' is not the same thing as 'to'.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Taking everyone's opinion into account, I would talk to the guy and see if you can be compensated a little for your trouble, then move on. If you take a small loss in the end, what can you do.

I offer customers time payments on occasion, and while most work out well I know that something can go wrong.

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Posted By: Fred C

James,

First off I wouldn't have guessed there was going to be an issue with a fellow borad member so I'd have been in the same boat as you. But, after the 4 months had passed without full payment I would have communicated something with the buyer with regard to the transaction and I would have set a dead line on payment. I guess that's easier to say standing in my shoes.

There's a few different factors in this sale:

• Did you send the card to the buyer with only partial payment?
  
• Do you still have the card in your possession?
  
• If there was a great depreciation in the price/value of the card then you'll be out that much money if the card is returned.
  

Judging by your post I'm guessing that you already sent the card to the buyer. I wouldn't have done that.

If you still have the card you will have the buyers full attention because you have their MONEY. You could sell the card to someone else for more money or the same amount of money and then refund the non-paying buyer what he's paid you. Or, if the card price depreciates you could hold on to the buyers money and wait for full payment and not send the card. If you have the card you have the best options available.

If you shipped the card then it's going to be a lesson learned and all you can do is hope that the buyer either pays you the balance or sends the card back. If they send the card back then consider yourself lucky and chalk it up to experience.

The mail is slow at this time of year so there's a good chance it could show up this week. If it doesn't then the buyer will be responsible to do the paperwork necessary to cancel the money order and reissue a new money order.

Maybe the buyer will chime in and give their side of the story - don't expect much sympathy from this group because you are late in completing the transaction. You should have communicated any problems with the seller (James) if there were going to be any delays in payment.

Good luck with this.

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Posted By: James Gallo

First off this was not a deal done with anyone on this board and it was NOT A CARD.

I still have both the cash and the toy.

I sent the buyer am email asking them if they thought I deserved anything and I got a long 3 paragraph email about how this and that went wrong and that they wish they could afford to get me something for my trouble.

The fact of the matter is that I am doing what most have said and am just going to send this idiot back ALL his money. He will not get the item and will be banned from dealing with me in the future.

I really can't stand how disrespectful people can be. All he had to do with overnight the last payment and none of this would of happened but because there was not thought and respect to the word deadline he didn't.

Anyway I thank you all from the input and the different prospective's in helped.

Happy New Year to all.

James G


Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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Posted By: JB

If you have the cash and the toy you are in the drivers seat for sure. Refund his money in monthly installments..........i bet he will not like that (just a thought). If you have another buyer, sell the toy, if not hold his cash and the toy until final payment. Good luck in whichever route you choose.

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Posted By: Fred C

JB,

That was funny - remind me to not buy anything from you...

James,

You could take the high road and send it all back at once, but a little curve in the road (what JB wrote) here and there would make for a funny trip.

You are definitely holding all the cards (in this case, toys). You just never know, that last payment might just show up. Just out of curiosity, can you get more for the toy now or is it about the same value as when this transaction originally took place?

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Posted By: boxingcardman

very funny

Look, the issue boils down to contract law. If you did not previously decide on a buyer's cost for carrying the card if the deal didn't go through (a liquidated damage measure), then you really don't have a leg to stand on for unilaterally deciding on a 20% penalty. Standard damages in this case are the seller's loss of profit on the deal less any savings. If the item is unique (i.e., isn't something you are churning out) and worth the same and you can resell it, you haven't really suffered a loss if you send back the $; perhaps a bit for time value but that would be very hard to prove and for a card (unlike a piece of land) would be minimal value. Also, if you accepted late performance from the buyer without protest, you are likely deemed to have waived the default.

Next time, stipulate clearly to a time frame that you want to stick with and liquidated damage figure if the buyer defaults if you want to cut off a deal and impose a fee for your wasted time and effort. As it stands now, I'd refund the $945 and let it go as a learning opportunity.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: Steve

I would simply keep all the money for the toy.

I would not send the toy until payment was completed.

If it was in my original contract I'd charge a certain pct
above the original cost for each month overdue. Like Con ED
does, something like 1.5% per month.


Steve

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Do or don't do the agreement, but don't modify it... no keeping 20%, no charging an extra 1.5%. Your original agreement didn't contemplate any of that.


By now, if you've received all of the money, either send the item or refund all of the money. If you've not received all of the money, send what you've received back.


Nonsense to the idea of change of value over time affecting what you do. Value does change over time, and the original deal contemplated payment over time. So learn from that, and next time add or subtract change of value in the original deal, but not after the deal's gone bad.



If what he's paid so far is not full payment and you send it back, then if the 'rest' of the payment appears, send that back, too.



Hmmmm... what if the folks who responded to your thread charge you a 5% consulting fee. Now where did that come from? It wasn't part of any original agreement when you posted, was it? See, don't change the deal, just do it or don't.

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Posted By: Steve

Frank that is why I said 'if'


Steve

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Posted By: Mike T

Obviously the guy has some money problems if he's spreading out his payments like that and having trouble getting them to you on time.

Although, I'd also imagine that for many people the $255 ultimatum you set for him with a deadline of three days before Christmas might be a tough pill to swallow.

How would it make you feel if you found out that he skipped a few Christmas presents for his kids because he didn't want to loose 20% of the $1200 he was into you for?

How about showing him what the real high road is all about ... and send him the toy he's paid for (once his MO arrives) along with a check for $100. Tell him you appreciate his business, have a Happy New Year and enjoy the $100 discount.

You'd probably gain a new friend and loyal customer for life.

Not to mention, it might make you feel better about the whole transaction.

Just my opinion ... since you asked.

Mike

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Posted By: Fred C

Mike,

I'm looking for a few Old Judge cards - do you have any for sale and do you take time payments?

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Posted By: Richard Cline

Fred, you beat me to it, I thought of making a similar deal!

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Posted By: Mike T

<< I'm looking for a few Old Judge cards - do you have any for sale and do you take time payments? >>


Yes, but I usually charge double ... so I can afford the $100 bonus check at the end.

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Posted By: Fred C

Mike,

Not a problem on the double book price as I would probably be VERY slow to pay for them...