T206 PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42....update & survey

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

It has been a couple years since we ran a survey on this very tough T206 back. So, I am reprising this topic
to provide my updated data on this back. And, to see if any new PIEDMONT 460/42 cards can be confirmed.
I don't expect too many new inputs; however, the T206 Monster does have a habit of surprising us.

As most of us know, the majority of the P460/42 cards are from the 350/460 Series. There are 61 cards in
this series, and my data indicates that 51 of these cards have been confirmed. The following 10 have yet
to be confirmed......

Unconfirmed 350/460 cards

Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Donlin (bat)
Doyle (bat)
Magee (bat)
McQuillan (bat)
Street (catching)
Tinker (bat off)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willis (bat)


There are 48 Subjects in the last T206 Series (460-only)....but, only 10 cards from this series have been
confirmed with the P460/42 back.....

Confirmed 460-only cards

Bergen (catching)
Chase (Trophy)
Devore
Kleinow (Boston)
Latham
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)
Schaefer (Washington)
Smith (Boston & Chicago)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


It would be appreciated if any Net54er can add to the list of the 460-only cards.

And, I certainly expect that the list of 10 unconfirmed 350/460 cards will be reduced. It is my belief that
all 61 cards in this Series were printed with the P460/42 back.

So, check-out your T206's everyone......thanks very much for your time and effort.


TED Z

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
I don't have the list in front of me, but I can confirm,
Willis Batting.

I'll check for more when I get home.

Be well Brian

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Posted By: Jim Rivera

Ted-

Wilhelm bat (180304619982 ) just ended on ebay and I own M. Brown (chicago)

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Posted By: George

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Posted By: Marc S.

McQuillan with Bat with a Piedmont Factory 42.

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Posted By: Anonymous

BRIAN....JIM....GEORGE....MARC

Great stuff guys, lets see if we can account for all 61 Subjects of the 350/460 Series with Piedmont 460 Factory 42 backs.


Five down and 5 to go.........


Thanks guys,


Hey BRIAN W......these are North Carolina "smokes"....so, you should have all of them....


TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

OK, guys and gals, we only need 5 more 350/460 cards to complete the 61-card run of confirmed T206's
with the PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42 back.

Here are the 5 remaining cards from 350/460 series that we need to confirm......

Burch (fielding)

Doyle (bat)

Magee (bat)

Street (catching)

Tinker (bat off)


Regarding the 460-only Series cards....I expect only 12 - T206's were printed with the PIEDMONT 460,
Factory 42 back. So, here again are the 10 confirmed 460-only cards. Let's see what you serious T206
collectors can come up with ?

Confirmed 460-only Series cards......

Bergen (catching)
Chase (Trophy)
Devore
Kleinow (Boston)
Latham
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)
Schaefer (Washington)
Smith (Boston & Chicago)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


Thanks again,

TED Z

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Posted By: Marc S.

I don't personally own it, but I do have an image of the Magee Bat with Piedmont Factory 42. The card definitely exists -- just not in my collection

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Posted By: barry arnold

Ted,
I have one lonely 42, Downey batting, so i'm not much help.
Great seeing the research bringing more and more clarity to the issues you
raise, step by step.

best,

barry

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Posted By: Art M.

Hi Ted,
Of the 5 T206 cards you have not confirmed with Piedmont factory 42 backs in the 350/460 series I have seen 0 of those remaining 5.

In the 460 only series I have seen these with Piedmont factory 42:
Merkle, throwing
Seymour, portrait
Wiltse, portrait with cap (I own this one)

My Piedmont survey is a bit behind but the data is accurate.

Regards,
Art

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Posted By: johnny

hello Ted , Marc and all

i have to check, but i have the magee fact 42 batting!!!!

4 to go ted = )



peace

johnny

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Posted By: john/z28jd

I can confirm Johnny V's Magee batting. Before I got to his post I was thinking that was one of the pied. 42's I have because I know I saw it in person. I don't have my own list but I have seen his card so it does exist.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Well, well....three for Magee. Thanks Marc, Johnny, and John D. I will remove Magee from the list.....
now, only 4 to go.

Thanks Art for Merkle and Seymour.....the two that I was looking for to make it 12 subjects from the
460-only Series.

I have an interesting observation....6 of the 12 cards from this last series portray NY Giants. Was this,
perhaps, due to the Giants dominating the 1911 season ?

Just guessing, anyone have a better idea ?


TED Z

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Posted By: boxingcardman

Bradley and Chase w/trophy

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Here are my four....I had more, but traded them to friends for their type sets.






OK....here are the 4 remaining cards from the 350/460 Series that we need to complete this 61-card series......

Burch (fielding)
Doyle(bat)
Street (catching)
Tinker (bat off)


Regarding the 460-only Series....we now have 12 - T206's printed with the PIEDMONT 460, Factory 42 back.

Confirmed 460-only Series cards......

Bergen (catching)
Chase (Trophy)
Devore
Kleinow (Boston)
Latham
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Smith (Boston & Chicago)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)



Thanks again every one....now, how about trying to find a few more of these "toughies" ?

TED Z

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Posted By: Mike Brailey

I have the following Piedmont 350-460 Factory 42 cards:

Street, Washington (Catching)
Ames, N.Y. Nat'l (Hands Over Head)
Berger, Cleveland
Wagner, Boston Amer. (Bat on Right Shoulder)

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

With your input of Street (catching) we are now down to only 3 unconfirmed cards from the 350/460 Series.

Burch (fielding)

Doyle(bat)

Tinker (bat off)


I am quite confident that we will confirm all 61 cards in this series.


TED Z

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Posted By: Craig W

I have a few T206's with Piedmont 350-460 backs that have Factory 42, 4th Dist NC at the bottom:

Burch (Fielding)
Cobb (Red Background)
Cobb (Bat Off)
Davis (Davis on Front)
Doolan (Batting)
Elberfeld (Fielding)
Evers (Chicago on Shirt)
Griffith (Batting)
Jennings (Both Hands Show)
Kleinow (Catching, Boston)
Overall (Hands Face Level)
Snodgrass (Catching)
Stahl (Glove Shows)
Willis (Batting)
Willis (Throwing)

Are they worth much???

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Posted By: ChiSoxFan

Ted,

Very nice Dougherty Piedmont 350-460/42. Wouldn't mind having that one for my White Sox collection, but is most likely "out of my league".

You are one of the top T206 collectors in my book.

ChiSoxFan

Looking for T206 Sweet Caporal Fact. #30 White Sox in Poor to Fair condition.

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Posted By: peter ullman

I have ames, hands over head and chase w/black hat throwing.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

With your input of Burch (fielding) we are now down to just 2 unconfirmed cards from the 350/460 Series.

Doyle(bat)

Tinker (bat off)


This thread demonstrates the tremendous knowledge and collecting base we have here on Net54....thanks everyone.


TED Z

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Posted By: Anonymous

I received an email from a Net54 reader, saying he has seen the Doyle (bat) card with a
Piedmont 460/42 back.

However, he isn't 100% certain. Can anyone else confirm this card. We only have these
two left from the 350/460 series to verify.

Doyle(bat)

Tinker (bat off)



And, from the 460-only Series....we haven't found any more beyond the 12 - T206's prin-
ted with the P460/42 back.

Reiterating the confirmed 460-only Series cards with P460/42 backs......

Bergen (catching)
Chase (Trophy)
Devore
Kleinow (Boston)
Latham
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Smith (Boston & Chicago)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)



Assuming we can confirm Doyle (bat)....and, if Tinker (bat off shoulder) is a No Print, then
we have a 60-card series.


Furthermore, if no more than these 12 cards in the 460-only Series were printed with P460
Fac. 42 backs, then my old theory of "12 cards across a row" on a printed sheet is back to
haunt us.


Very interesting......

TED Z

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Posted By: Scot

Hi Ted,

It is possible that Doyle (With Bat) and Tinker (Bat Off) were printed but that no copies have survived. After all, there are probably fewer than a dozen copies of a typical Piedmont 42 with us today.

Scot

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
I'm 90% sure that I have seen a Piedmont 42 of Doyle with bat, but I haven't been able to find the scan. I'll keep looking.
Be well Brian


PS Hi Scot,
I agree... Not too many of each floating around...

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Posted By: Scot

Hi Ted,

As you know, Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Both), while available only with 460 backs (and assorted backs that appear in the 460 series), do not share a common back set with the 460-only subjects. For example, these two subjects are not possible with the Sovereign 460 or Sweet Cap 460/30 backs that are found on all "true" 460-only subjects. Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Both) were more likely printed exclusively during the 460 part of the 350/460 RP print run, as they share a common 460 back set with most 350/460 RP subjects.

Accordingly, to support your 12-cards-in-a-row theory, you may want to look for two other "true" 460-only subjects with the Piedmont 42 back. I seem to recall one collector who indicated on the PSA registry a few years back that he owned Oldring (Batting) with Piedmont 42--so that may be one of the two.

Scot

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Your word is good enough for me; so, I am scratching Doyle (bat) from its unconfirmed status.
So, we still have Tinker (bat off) from the 350/460 series that needs to be verified.

From the 460-only Series list....I have removed Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Boston & Chicago).
As Scot pointed out, these two Subjects are an enigma.

They are actually 350/460 cards, without Piedmont, Sovereign, Sweet Caporal and the A-B-C-D
350 backs.

So, we now have only 10 - T206's printed with the P460/42 back.

Bergen (catching)
Chase (Trophy)
Devore
Latham
Merkle (throwing)
Murray (portrait)
Overall (blue sky)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)



How about a few more inputs here....either confirming Tinker....or, adding new ones to the 460-only list ?


TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The Kleinow and Smith not found with Sweet Caporal 460 Factory 30 (New York) backs indeed tell us
that these two Subjects are really 350/460 cards. All 55 subjects in the 350/460 series are not found
with the SC460/30 back.
However, these 57 cards were initially printed with the Sweet Cap 460/30 (NY) backs. But, they were
never issued.....instead, this NY factory designation was overprinted with a scroll and the "Factory 42
4th Dist, N.C." was added to the bottom of the back by American Litho.
These modified cards were sent to the L&M plant in Durham, NC (Factory 42) to be inserted in the post-
divestiture American Tobacco Co. (ATC) production of the Sweet Cap. brand. My guess is this occurred
in 1911 when ATC was forced to transfer production of the American Beauty, Piedmont, and Sweet Cap-
oral brands to the L&M tobacco plant.

Furthermore, all New York ATC production was shut down. Besides Sweet Caporal, this included LENOX,
UZIT (all Factory 30, NY) and Red HINDU (Fac. 649, NY). I believe we can attribute the scarcity of the
cards advertising these three 460 series T-brands to the break-up of ATC.

In addition, the ATC break-up also gave the Lorillard Tobacco Co. full rights to several other ATC brands,
including POLAR BEAR (PB). The Ohio plant (Factory 6) then increased the production of their PB tobacco
as is evident by the fact that considerably more 350/460 series cards have survived with PB backs than
any other series of T206's.

This fact is substantiated by the population data of both Cobb's (red & bat off); and, Kleinow (Boston)
and Smith (Chi & Bos). All four of which are 350/460 series Subjects.

The 460-only Series cards are also found more often with PB backs; but, they are not as plentiful as the
350/460 cards.

Therefore, it is my belief that many (if not all) of the 460 (back) versions of the 350/460 cards were
printed and issued in 1911.....subsequent to the 460-only cards.



TED Z

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
Here you go...
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Be well Brian

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Posted By: barry arnold

I knew ole Chapel Hill would come through!!
great work Brian.
i'm thinking that Scot may soon turn these expert TRexean surveys into a new
monograph.
I'm hopin' so.

best,

barry

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks for posting the Doyle card.

Now, all we need is to find a Tinker (bat off shoulder) to complete the 350/460 Series run.

And perhaps, a few more 460-only Series cards with the PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42 back.


Best regards....good buddy,

TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

One more request for this Tinker (bat off shoulder) card with a PIEDMONT 460 Factory 42 (P460/42) back.

Check-out your T206 collections.....you may be in for a surprise, in that you may have this very rare card.

You will note that most P460/42 backs are a light blue color.

....................................we are looking for this TINKER..../\


Thanks for checking.....let's see who can confirm the last remaining 350/460 card with a P460/42 back
in this T206 series.


TED Z

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Posted By: Scot

I wanted to write to say that after doing a little math I think that there are more than a dozen copies of a typical 350/460 subject with Piedmont 42 around today. About 0.8% of 350/460 RP subjects have Piedmont 42 according to my survey data. So if one ballparks and assumes that there are 3,000 copies of a typical 350/460 RP subject in existence, that would mean about two dozen of them would have Piedmont 42. Accordingly, a Tinker (Bat Off) should emerge before too long.

Scot

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

This is quite interesting. I'm curious, though, if you think there are approx. 3000 copies existing of each of the cards in the 350/460
series ?
Or was that number just a hypothetical one ?


OK Net54er's....who has the final card that we need here to be batting 1.000....specifically, the Tinker with bat off shoulder ?

TED Z

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Posted By: Scot

Hi Ted,



I derived the 3,000 number from the Demmitt (St. Louis) hypothetical presented in my e-book. It goes something like this:



1. Assume there are about 200 copies of Demmitt (St. Louis) in existence.



2. We know they are all Polar Bear.



3. Further assume Demmitt (St. Louis) experienced a normal Polar Bear print with the 350-only group.



4. Polar Bear appears on about 6.6% of 350-only subjects.



5. Therefore, there are about 200 / .066 = 3,030 copies of a typical 350-only subject in existence.



6. The number of copies of a typical 350/460 RP subject in existence would be roughly similar (maybe a little higher).



I expect based on our recent discussions that you probably would not accept premise #3, and that you may also have a problem with premise #1.

There are also other considerations that come to bear, for example, the fact that there are Polar Bear "no prints" in the 350-only group means that considerably more than 6.6% of the 350-only subjects with which Polar Bear is possible have the Polar Bear back (the percentage may be more like 10%).

Based on all this, I would not expect you to necessarily "buy in" to the 3K estimate. But it's just a matter of rough ballparking anyway.

As always, I welcome your thoughts.

Scot

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Yes, I might differ with you on the number of existing Demmitt and O'Hara St. Louis cards. But, we are not that far off.

I think your 3000 number is most likely very real.

Thanks,

TED Z