BVG4 = PSA6 ?!

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Posted By: Scott Levy

Remember that Demmitt card which many thought might be trimmed or at least vastly overgraded at a 4 .....well look at it in it's new home

http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-1911-T206-POLAR-BEAR-RAY-DEMMITT-ST-LOUIS-PSA-6_W0QQitemZ270309837290QQihZ017QQcategoryZ31718QQs sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

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Posted By: dennis

this is just one reason why grading is a joke.

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Posted By: Matthew

I do not understand how is an EXMT grade possible when ...

"UNDER THE ARM OF DEMMITT ON THE LEFT EDGE OF THE CARD IS A SPOT OF PAPER LOSS. GRADER SAID THE LOSS WAS SLIGHT AND BECAUSE OF THE TREMENDOUS EYE APPEAL OF THE OVERALL CARD AND DOES NOT DETRACT FROM THE IMAGE OF THE CARD."

Does anyeone know if a card of this importance would go through at least 2 different graders? I'm sorry, I just don't see a 6. Still a pretty sweet card especially for a PB.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Where's all the naysayers? Hi Bobby.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Anyone see the similarities to the Mortgage market?

Take a $3,000 card. Wrap it up in a different container. Then sell for $25,000.

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Posted By: Fred C

I give the seller credit. At least they disclosed the paper loss. But then again the seller is probably smart enough to make sure everyone knows what they're buying because a $25K refund wouldn't be fun to make.

Yes, this is why grading is a joke. How the heck can a card with paper loss be graded a "6" based on eye appeal. I've seen cards get totally hammered because of "slight" paper loss. Then again this is PSA and we shouldn't forget the "Harris" collection.

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Posted By: Andrew S.

Paper loss is too harshly penalized by some graders.
I agree with the PSA-6 grade.

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Posted By: Anonymous

"Paper loss is too harshly penalized by some graders.
I agree with the PSA-6 grade".

Yeah but when it was in a BVG 4 holder there were 50 posts of people saying it was overgraded or trimmed.

Now that it's in a PSA 6 holder the grade is ok?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I don't understand how anyone could ever suggest that a card with paper loss could be a 6. Even without the paper loss I'm not sure the card is a 6; with it, no way.

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Posted By: George Leidemer

Funny I saw this post, I was thinking of posting myself last night but was almost too disgusted to even bother. Let's see, why is this situation wrong on so many levels. After going through 297 of my PSA graded T206's, anything with even a speck of paper loss is graded a two, I did find one psa 3 with a speck of paperloss with superior eye appeal on front. Now, we all are 100% sure that the card submitted in a beckett holder for a cross over gets no higher than a 4 and may get the typical "minimum grade" response and be sent back due to grading companies bias toward each other. But the card gets popped out and receives a 6 with paper loss albeit on the front of the card for that matter.

Then we have a seller who takes "said" card in which he paid $4775 for it, purchased by the same people who graded the card originally(consignment or not, who cares), in mid October and turns around just over 2 months later and lists it with a $25,000 buy it now. I am all about the next person making a decent return on investment, but could you imagine if some poor shmuck pays this sum not knowing the history. I won't even get into the possible trim that was suspected, that is opinion. I feel strongly that PSA messed up in this instance, and would love to speak to the grader/graders to hear them tell me "The loss was slight and because of the tremendous eye appeal of the overall card and does not detract from the image...blah..blah..blah. But my Hooks Wiltse card that with an exmint front and light scuff on the back at the top is a 2. No way this card should be in a "6" holder, it's a joke!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Here's an E98 Chase in PSA 4 that has a tiny bit of paper loss on the back -- certainly less obtrusive than paper loss on the FRONT of a card -- and this Chase looks better than the Demmitt any day of the week -- and yet the Chase only received a grade of 4. Oh, and by the way -- how is it that both the top and bottom borders of the Demmitt are short? Both borders? Nice trim job.

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

I'll reiterate....it's the freakin 4 corners....that count, and any flaw between them DOES NOT MATTER !

I have seen cards graded with "8's" that are so out of register that you reach for your "3-D" glasses to
look at them.

And, some of you wonder why some of us on this forum "detest" this grading phenomena ?

At best, it's an "Arbitrary Art".


JEFF L......I enjoyed your commentary this AM on the radio.

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Posted By: George Leidemer

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Posted By: Adam

What would the general guess be:


(1) Seller cracked it out of the BVG slab and gave it to PSA raw; or


(2) Seller gave the card to PSA in the BVG slab as a cross over?




Also, anyone have a copy of the card in the BVG slab they could post

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Ted, if I had known you were listening I wouldn't have held back at all. Kind of a startling morning show to those who were expecting a discussion about the economy, huh?

George, nice. I can certainly see how that card is 4 grades lower than the Demmitt. Unreal.

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Posted By: George Leidemer

EBAY AUCTION# 290266641446

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Posted By: rob

Is that paper loss or a scuff?

If its paper loss, it is miraculous that it went up to and stopped at the border, then proceeded onto the other side of it.

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Posted By: Doug

I'm not surprised. The majority of SGC cards I've crossed over received bumps from PSA.

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Posted By: Fred C

This is from the PSA grading standards page:

EX-MT 6: Excellent-Mint.

A PSA EX-MT 6 card may have visible surface wear or a printing defect which does not detract from its overall appeal. A very light scratch may be detected only upon close inspection. Corners may have slightly graduated fraying. Picture focus may be slightly out-of-register. Card may show some loss of original gloss, may have minor wax stain on reverse, may exhibit very slight notching on edges and may also show some off-whiteness on borders. Centering must be 80/20 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the reverse.


I guess it's in the interpretation of "surface wear" and "light scratch". I'm pretty sure that "surface wear" doesn't mean scuff and light scratch doesn't mean a portion of the surface is missing. A lot of us like to bash PSA and this is just the vehicle we need to start another PSA bashing thread.

In all fairness, PSA doesn't totally suck, ask Dan McKee PSA paid him for a card they lost, ok, maybe it took a little bit of coaxing...

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Posted By: George Leidemer

there hasn't been 30 total Demmitt, St. Louis graded there has been 90.

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Posted By: Steve

Not to defend this seller but 30 is the correct amount
graded by PSA............Polar Bear backs anyway.



Steve

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Posted By: Jim VB

Steve,

George is correct. There are 30 indentified as Polar Bear backs but there are another 60 Demmitt's (St. Louis) listed as "unidentified" backs. In fact, ALL are Polar Bear.

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Posted By: George

I assumed everyone knew this card is only found with Polar Bear Backs totalling 90

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Posted By: Rick McQuillan

I have three thoughts about this situation:

1. The sellers quotes the grader as saying that the paper loss does not detract from the overall quality of the card. So, the seller talked to the grader? Did he get it graded at a show? How often does someone actually talk to the person that did the grading?

2. The overall quality of the card is at best VG. It should have gotten no better than a 3.

3. The more that I look at the scans the more convinced I am that the top border is trimmed.

Those are the thoughts that are going through my little brain.

Rck

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Posted By: George

in his description he says total population is now 30 with his being graded. Even if the seller didn't know the card can only be found with a Polar Bear back, a simple search of Demmitt, St. Louis variation would show the total being 90. I can't speak for everyone else in the t206-psa graded community, but 97% of my searches are done by typing in the players name, I think I am in the majority...except for the few times I am searching a rarer back ie...lenox, cb, uzit..etc.

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Posted By: Steve

Ahh, 30 that are listed as PB on the cert. Gotcha.

No I wasn't aware that only PB backs were issued for this card.

Thanks for the clarification.


Steve

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Posted By: Steve

George when I went to the pop report I did not see the total graded as 90

So I assumed 90 was the overall total but that 30 were PB. 10 were Sweet Caps etc.

I was not aware that this card was only found with the PB back.

Maybe this seller looked up this info the way I did?


I remember now that PSA began counting backs.


Steve

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Posted By: George

No problem. If the seller stated this is the 30th polar bear graded back and didn't realize all the other 60 were polar bears' due to the fact that its the only way there found, fine. But he states total population is 30. If I had a card that I was getting ready to list for a pretty decent chunk of change such as 25k, I think I would take a second and get my facts straight. That's all. I have seen other sellers do this on ebay who I know are well aware of PSA marking their flips with the backs as of a few years ago and continue to do it now. Just think it is misleading. I am mainly referring to those sellers who say this is the highest graded piedmont or sweet caporal when its graded a PSA 5. I have even seen some go as far as stating in their auction 1 of 1?

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Posted By: Steve

Agreed, for 25K of which 20k is flip for profit a seller
should have the facts straight, I too feel this card is overgraded
and should be in a VG/EX holder at best.

I too have never heard that a grader from PSA explained why he graded
a card a certain way. Other then the Wagner PSA usually frowns on
stating why a card graded a certain way. IMO all that was fluff.


Steve

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Posted By: dan mckee

There hasn't been 90 different examples graded either. How many have been popped and resubmitted? I guarantee you if I submit this card raw, I will get a 2 due to the paperloss.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Don't kid yourself Dan...if you submitted that card to PSA it would either get a 1 or it would get "lost".

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Posted By: JimB

Many sellers like to "innocently" distort pop numbers on T206s now since PSA has started identifying backs. Since probably only 10% of the total # of T206s they have graded have backs identified, it is a complete distortion to claim that X number of Y cards with Z back are graded because it does not account for the other 90% graded before PSA identified and placed back info on their labels and in their pop reports. These are intentional distortions by sellers made to give the false impression of rarity.

For example, let's say PSA has graded 1000 Jennings portraits. I am making up these numbers for the sake of an example. 900 of those were probably graded before PSA kept track of backs. So of the 100 graded since, maybe 5 are Polar Bear backs. Does that mean they have only graded 5 PB Jennings? NO. It means of the 100 graded since tracking backs began only 5 are PBs. But if the law of averages is applicable to the other 900 graded examples for which back records were not kept, there are probably 50 Jennings port/PB backs out there.

My guess is you won't find a dealer who is buying cards that is unaware of this, but you will find many who are blissfully innocent when reporting pop numbers on cards they are selling.
JimB

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Posted By: quan

jim i don't believe those 1/1 psa9 e93s either...the nerve of some people.

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Posted By: JimB

Yeah, where do they get off trying to pull that.
Jim

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

JimB -- I would guess that most of the distorted statistics we see for graded T206 populations by back type (e.g. Ty Cobb Bat Off Shoulder Sweet Caporal EX-MT 6 "1 of 2") stem from ignorance, or just sloppy use of statistics, but I'm sure there is plenty of deceitfulness in there too. I blame PSA partly for the mess, i.e. for changing their grading and classification scheme for T206's in the middle of the game.

The good news is that the number of T206's that have been identified by back type, and recorded as such in the pop stats, has been steadily increasing over time. I think PSA takes advantage of every opportunity they get (such as reviews and re-holders) to get the new flips inserted. The current number of PSA-graded T206's still with "Unknown Back" is now down to about two-thirds of the total number graded (66,036 out of 98,564). That is somewhat surprising considering that they only made the switch about a year and a half ago (IIRC). But I think it is going to be a long time before the Piedmonts and Sweet Caporals and the rest significantly outnumber the Unknowns.

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Posted By: Jim VB

I believe the advertising concept you refer to was postulated by Benjamin Disraeli.


"There are three kinds of lies: Lies, damned lies, and statistics!"

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

The modern version is "lies, damned lies, statistics, and benchmarks."

Well I guess I was wrong about PSA's aggressive program to get all of their T206's marked by back variation. Earlier this year I submitted a T206 card to them to have the flip corrected, because it showed the wrong front variation (Brown Cubs Shirt instead of Brown Portrait). While making this correction, they took the opportunity to add "Piedmont" to the flip, which I had not specifically requested. I think I paid them the $5 re-holdering fee for this service (although I heard I shouldn't have paid anything in that case since they were correcting their own labeling mistake).

Just now I sent some T206's in to be re-holdered, all of the older variety without back types shown, because the holders were scratched or chipped and needed to be replaced, and I figured they would add the back types as well (though again, I didn't ask them to do this). But instead, when they printed the new flips for the new holders, they marked the cards as "T206 Unknown." What the heck is up with that? Couldn't they just turn the cards over and see what backs they had? Do I have to pay the full grading fees, so they can bring in their back experts, if I want the back types shown and recorded?