1909-1911 players who didn't get their own T206 card?

[Archive]

Posted By: barry arnold

I'm reading the magnificent THE GLORY OF THEIR TIMES again and just finished
the chapter on Jimmy Austin who played with Elberfeld,Keeler,Chesbro during the T206 years. Can someone tell me why he doesn't have his own card?
Can someone also tell me other players who didn't get their own cards?
This is a piece of research that I've missed and am eager to take a look at.

many thanks,
best,
Barry

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

...prominently discussed omissions are Smoky Joe Wood and Shoeless Joe Jackson:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/woodjo02.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/j/jacksjo01.shtml

Also, Connie Mack was sadly omitted in favor of other managers, like McGraw and Jennings.

Trying to figure those omissions out, while players like Lou Fiene (26 career games) get two cards, just makes my head hurt.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/fienelo01.shtml

[Archive]

Posted By: Jason L

but probably not, since I suspect the answer is a simple "no"

The phrasing of your question ("their own card") brought this one to my mind:
Are there any T206 cards that feature more than one player? Would this be the first "Combo card"?

Thanks for allowing me this diversion.
Please resume normal broadcasting.

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

....in T206.

[Archive]

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

A powerful righthander that complemented Southpaw Eddie Plank for Connie Mack's A's.

Why he wasn't in the T206 set is a big mystery, as "Colby Jack" Coombs had a 59-21 record for 1910-11. His lifetime career
won-lost recordis 159-110....which includes a 21-10 record in Relief situations.

I include Coombs as one of a trio of A's players that fit my theory regarding contractual conflicts between American Caramel
and American Tobacco with respect to Eddie Collins....Jack Coombs....Eddie Plank.

T-Rex TED

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark L

I started collecting other sets because T206 doesn't have cards of Babe Adams, Sam Leever, and Eddie Grant along with Wood and Austin.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Koochin

Jack Coombs was 31-9 with a 1.30 ERA in 1910. He started with
the As in 1906, a curious omission from T206...

[Archive]

Posted By: Jason L

Joe Wood
Jimmy Austin
Joe Jackson
Jack Coombs

Looks as though the criteria was pretty simple: You weren't included if your first name started with the letter J.

Same reason I didn't get a card!

[Archive]

Posted By: barry arnold

Many,many thanks T206 scholars.

From your work, it looks like Austin,Jackson,Wood,Coombs, Grant,Leever,Adams,
Mack.
Any others off the top of your heads.
This is already mindblowing!
Any articles on this topic that you know about?

best,
Barry

[Archive]

Posted By: Jon Canfield

In response to Jason's question above, even if the T-206 set featured combo cards, the Old Judge's would have beat them to the punch by about 20 years, give or take.

Now, in terms of players missing from the T-206 set, what about King Cole? He led the NL with a 20-4 record in 1910. Also, Harry Hooper is missing (I believe).

[Archive]

Posted By: robert a

Ted,

Your theory makes a lot of sense, especially since some of the Pittsburgh players included in American Caramels' E90-2 set are not found with T206 poses.

Since the company was doing an all Pirates set, it would make great sense that they didn't want the players over-exposed with T206.

It's fair to assume that the caramel companies (who were local for these players) immediately reached out to the Pitt. and Phil. big names and asked that they exclusively support their product.

This theory would explain not only Plank as you have mentioned, but provides the connection to the scarcity of the Honus Wagner as well.

Leever, Adams, etc. could've been approached by the American Caramel since the company probably had more access to the "local" players.

On the other hand, in could've been Philadelphia Caramels who had exclusive rights to some of the players since Connie Mack appears in E96, but not in E90.

It could've been the same case with players like the already mentioned Jimmy Austin who appears in E94, but not in T206.

Robert

[Archive]

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

I first proposed my theory regarding the T206 Plank about a year ago and the more I delved into it, I realized it included more A's
players (Eddie Collins, Coombs, etc.) and Pittsburg players. It's based on the story of the American Caramel Co.....it's founder.....
and, its begining in Philadelphia.

For more insight into this story....I have provided the following links:

Here is the Net54 thread link......

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1166484149/last-1170877416/My+T206+Plank+theory>

And, my follow-up with this thread......

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1170862538/last-1171162277/My+T206+Plank+theory....New+Follow-up+info>


ROBERT

Regarding the T206 Wagner....I cannot go that far to say that the contention between ACC and ATC involved the Honus. This
remains a mystery; however, he has four cards depicting him in the T216 set.....I have seen his picture in a 1950's Pittsburgh
yearbook with a lit cigar in his hand.....so, is his anti-tobacco story a myth ? I'll leave it to someone else to resolve.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: barry arnold

Many thanks, the list now reads:
Coombs
Mack
Wood
Jackson
Austin
Adams
Leever
Grant
King Cole
Hooper

TREX, I reread the threads that you suggested and they are very helpful and
do interweave quite illuminatively with this thread.
Does your theory help explain why all of the above cards are missing?
Are there other players which come to mind?
Many,many thanks for your insight.

best,
barry

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave Hornish

I have to wonder if the Honus being pulled from cigarette products is due to his promoting cigars at the time T206 was issued?

Also, I cannot find the reference right now but believe Lipset once wrote all the photographs used for T202 (end pieces), T205 and T206 had all been taken by 1904. I thought it was in his "Encyclopedia" but it may have been and "Old Judge" article. I also may be remembering it slightly wrong but it might explain player selection for T206 to some degree. Can anyone provide this quote from Lew?

[Archive]

Posted By: Cy

Although it would be nice to have a T206 Smokey Joe Wood card or a T206 Joe Jackson card, if you check their stats prior to 1911, neither was a standout. Jackson had a good 1910, but only batted 75 times. Joe Wood didn't become a 20 game winner until 1911. These facts might be the reason they weren't on a T206 card. They probably weren't stars until after the set was finished. And Jimmy Austin (my favorite interview on the Glory of Their Times CD) was a nobody in 1909-1910.

Cy

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Jimmy Archer was excluded from T206 although he did make it into the T205 set. One of the best defensive catchers of the era.

[Archive]

Posted By: Steve Dawson

Here's my list of players who I wish were in T206 (and most importantly, were active during 1909, 1910 and/or 1911):

Babe Adams
Grover Alexander
Jimmy Archer
Jimmy Austin
Max Carey
Jack Coombs
Jake Daubert
Joe Delahanty (Frank and Jim are in the set)
Kid Gleason
Hank Gowdy
Eddie Grant
Harry Hooper
Joe Jackson
Connie Mack
Deacon McGuire
Bill McKechnie
Stuffy McInnis
Roger Peckinpaugh
Burt Shotton
Fred Toney
Hippo Vaughn
Joe Wood


Steve

[Archive]

Posted By: barry arnold

Very helpful comments Dave,Cy,Dan.
Your list moves us right along, Steve!! Many,many thanks.
I note that you don't list Leever and King Cole which were noted by others above. Any reason for this?

Please keep the research coming, T206 scholars. This is most interesting.
Still waiting for responses to some of the questions raised by others.
Please do so when you get a chance.

best,
barry

[Archive]

Posted By: Steve Dawson

No real reason Barry, other than I just missed 'em as I was scouring my "Total Baseball"


Steve

[Archive]

Posted By: J Hull

Barry, this is an excellent thread. Thanks for starting it.

To throw some numbers out, this is T206 cards by players' league:
National League = 204
American League = 184
Eastern League = 47
American Association = 39
Southern League = 20
Virginia League = 12
South Atlantic League = 10
Texas League = 6

For major leaguers, I think the player’s team had some effect on whether they were included.
Here’s total by team along with the teams’ finishing positions in the standings for the years 1908-1910 (the years when T206 selection was being done).

NL
New York = 54 ......... 1908 (2nd) 1909 (3rd) 1910 (2nd)
Chicago = 36 .......... 1908 (1st) 1909 (2nd) 1910 (1st)
Brooklyn = 26 ......... 1908 (7th) 1909 (6th) 1910 (7th)
Cincinnati = 23 ....... 1908 (5th) 1909 (4th) 1910 (5th)
Pittsburgh = 19 ....... 1908 (2nd) 1909 (1st) 1910 (3rd)
St. Louis = 18 ........ 1908 (8th) 1909 (7th) 1910 (7th)
Philadelphia = 14 ..... 1908 (4th) 1909 (5th) 1910 (4th)
Boston = 14 ........... 1908 (6th) 1909 (8th) 1910 (8th)

Based on team success, Brooklyn seems very overrepresented and Pittsburgh and Philadelphia seem underrepresented. Of course, market size surely played some role too.

AL
Detroit = 30 .......... 1908 (1st) 1909 (1st) 1910 (3rd)
New York = 27 ......... 1908 (8th) 1909 (5th) 1910 (2nd)
Chicago = 27 .......... 1908 (3rd) 1909 (4th) 1910 (6th)
Cleveland = 25 ........ 1908 (2nd) 1909 (6th) 1910 (5th)
Philadelphia = 22 ..... 1908 (6th) 1909 (2nd) 1910 (1st)
St. Louis = 22 ........ 1908 (4th) 1909 (7th) 1910 (8th)
Washington = 19 ....... 1908 (7th) 1909 (8th) 1910 (7th)
Boston = 12 ........... 1908 (5th) 1909 (3rd) 1910 (4th)

In the AL New York seems high, Philly a bit low, and Boston seems very underrepresented.

Clearly there's something a bit weird about Philadelphia (both the Phillies and the A's) and Boston's (the Doves a little and the Sox a lot) numbers. These numbers tend to support Ted's theory I think, but there's still no explanation I know of for why the Red Sox have so few players represented. No Wood, no Hooper, no Duffy Lewis, just to name three big ones.

Jamie

P.S. Just for comparison, Buffalo is the top minor league team with 11 cards...just one less than the Red Sox.

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark L

I forgot to mention Jimmy Archer. Supposedly the epitome of the strong armed catcher.

[Archive]

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Great analysis....and yes it appears as if the three Pennsylvania teams are under-represented in the T206 set....I don't think this is just
coincidental.

The Boston enigma also applies to the E90-1 set, where both Boston teams are not only under-represented, but several of their players
are very scarce (Speaker, Sweeney, etc.)

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

In my previous two Threads comparing the Philadelphia A's players in the American Caramel Co. (ACC) sets (E90-type and E91)
with the T206 set, I mention that the owner of the ACC was Daniel Franklin Lafean. In 1900 he paid Milton Hershey a Million$ for
Hershey's Caramel product. Prior to starting ACC, Lafean was the Director of Gettysburg College......the school that Eddie Plank
went to and was their star pitcher. Furthermore, Lafean and Connie Mack were very close friends.

With ACC being located in Philadelphia, Lafean also was involved in Caramel production in Lancaster and York (PA), which are the
locations of several of the subsequent E-type sets.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Coombs seems like he'd have been a candidate for inclusion, and I share Ted's views on why he was out. By the time the 350 series cards are coming out the folks seeking license from the players may have decided that going to Philadelphia, heart of the caramel folks, was too sticky a situation to tackle... based on their experience with Plank. That could be why Connie Mack is out, too.

A reciprocal thread on the white border cards, based on the idea of "why does this guy rate a card?" could be started... but this thread should run its course before competition fires up.

[Archive]

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Thanks to you, sometime back I purchased "The Glory of Their Times" and really enjoyed reading it. I was, however, somewhat
disappointed that the Ritter didn't include Jack Coombs. Coombs was another one of Connie Mack's College educated ballplayers
(like the two Eddie's......Collins and Plank). Coombs went to Colby College in Maine. He was a very effective Righthanded power
pitcher who amassed an amazing 59-21 record during the years that the T206 set was being produced......and, yet such a star
pitcher wasn't in the T206. The T206 designers could have included him in their last (460) series.

Also, how many know that Connie Mack played Coombs in the Outfield (OF) during his early pitching days for the A's. In 1908 Jack
played 47 games in OF and pitched in 26 games that year. He batted .255 with a .355 SLA and scored 31 Runs and had 23 RBI's.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: barry arnold

Jamie's contention, based on excellent corroborative data, that the numbers tend to support Ted's theory is approaching unassailability methinks.
What is shockingly unclear is the Red Sox situation.As Jamie maintains,'there's still no explanation I know of for why the Red Sox have so few players represented. No Wood, no Hooper, no Duffy Lewis... .' The number for the Red Sox is even lower than the Phillies and A's.
WHY?! I don't think Ted's groundbreaking Caramel theory is
illuminative here. Is it Ted? You rightfully identify the issue as the Boston enigma.
I'm incubating all this---any ideas T206 scholars?
Any more names of folks who didn't get their own cards?!

many thanks for all the efforts,
best,
Barry

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

...in 1957, which was four or so years prior to Ritter having the idea to publish such a book. Ritter was inspired by the death of Ty Cobb (though he later admitted that the death of his own father was the key), and that didn't happen until 1961.

[Archive]

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Thanks Paul....
I thought Jack Coombs was still living when Ritter started writing his great book. Coombs would certainly have had a lot of very
interesting stories to tell.

[Archive]

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

The American Caramel sets (E90 & E91-A) preceded the T206 issue by 1 year. This made an impact on the design of the 1st series
(150 Subjects) of the T206's with respect to certain teams. Here are the Boston teams' representation of these early ACC sets.

E90-1 set (1st series - 1908 issue) portrays these Boston players......only three.

Richie (NL)
Schlitzer (AL)
CYoung (AL)

E90-1 (Last series - 1910)......finally they added 8 more......but, try to find them, these cards were definitely Short-Printed; and,
are very scarce.

Boston....Nat'l Lge
________________

Brown (horiz)
Graham
Shean
Sweeney

Boston....Amer. Lge
_________________

Hall (horiz)
Karger
Speaker
Stahl




The E91-C set (1909 issue) "depicts" the following Boston (AL) cards....that did not appear in the T206 set.....

Harry Hooper
Amby McConnell
Joe Wood


T-Rex TED

[Archive]

Posted By: J Levine

How about Earl Moore...arguably the Phillies best pitcher during 1909-1910. He was in several other sets (caramel and tobacco).

Joshua

[Archive]

Posted By: Jimmy Muscarella

I have nothing to add...but just wanted to say that this thread is what made me an addict to the board. Great work guys, on adding some nice analysis.

A long time lurker,

Jimmy

[Archive]

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

While my above post, listing the Boston representation in the early Caramel sets, doesn't provide a clear answer to the "Boston
enigma", perhaps the following does.

I think it simply can be explained by the fact that the Boston (NL) team occupied 7th or 8th place in their division during 1906-1911.

And, the Boston Americans during the planning years (1906-1907) for these ACC sets were in 7th or 8th place in their division.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: barry arnold

Updated list of names:
Adams
alexander
archer
austin
carey
cole
coombs
daubert
delehanty (joe)
gleason
gowdy
grant
hooper
jackson
leever
mack
mcconnell
mcguire
mckechnie
mcinnis
moore
peckinpaugh
richie
schitzer
shean
shotton
toney
vaughn
wood
some of these omissions are absolutely amazing.
any others, T206 scholars?

TRex,
Your comments on the Boston enigma make sense to me.
Poor won-loss records during this time period might well
mean no or few pictures. It's hard for us to move anachronistically and realize that, during these early years of baseball, decision-making might well be done a bit cursorily for reasons we now might see as unjust.

[Archive]

Posted By: dennis

great thread! only thing i can add at this point is that connie mack seems to be the biggest name omitted.

[Archive]

Posted By: judson hamlin

Cy Falkenberg and Jack O'Connor also come to mind

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave Hornish

Well as I suspected I was partially right-Lipset's Encyclopedia indicates the photographs for T205, not T206, were taken 4 years before the set was issued, which influenced which players were included in the series.

It also looks like a lot of the omitted T206 names appeared in T207, although that set was issued after the White Borders.

Cool thread guys and gals.

[Archive]

Posted By: barry arnold

Many thanks for the new additions,research, and comments.
With this update we're at 31:
Adams
Alexander
Archer
Austin
Carey
Cole
Coombs
Daubert
Delehanty
Falkenberg
Gleason
Gowdy
Grant
Hooper
Jackson
Leever
Mack
McConnell
McGuire
McKechnie
McInnis
Moore
O'Connor
Peckinpaugh
Richie
Schitzer
Shean
Shotton
Toney
Vaughn
Wood

Any more, T206 scholars?!

best,
barry

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark Lutz

Barry
Don't forget Duffy Lewis, whom somebody mentioned. Does Vin Campbell deserve a mention, too? I further nominate Shano Collins and Lefty Tyler.

[Archive]

Posted By: dennis

i know this is a real stretch but a card of charles victory faust would have be very sought after(today) if it were in the set. i imagine he would bring hall of famer prices. i know this is about as far fetched as an eddie gaedel in the 1952 topps issue but who here would not love to have that card! or a 52 gaedel. barry should you add him to the list?

[Archive]

Posted By: indiesmap

I was wondering if 1911 is too late as well. I don't think Tilly Walker had a T206 card, and he came up with Washington that year. I collect cards for local players, and he was from a small town just down the road from me. So if he had a T206 card, does anyone have a scan of one?

[Archive]

Posted By: barry arnold

Many thanks for the reminders,contributions,and reminiscings,T206 Scholars.

Remembering the great story of Faust and ole superstitious McGraw brings a
great smile to us all. Sure would be a great card to have!
I'm honored to list it and Walker, 'tho as you suggest we need to note their
1911 date. Perhaps someone will speak to this late dating for us.
Lewis,Campbell,Shano Collins, and Tyler(who played a wee bit as early at
1910) will be added to the list gratefully.
Any more data, T206 Scholars?!

all the best,
barry

[Archive]

Posted By: J Levine

How about Pete Hill?

Joshua

[Archive]

Posted By: barry arnold

Joshua,
correct me if i'm wrong but i think Hill wasn't 'eligible' for the 206s since
he played in the Negro League.
i think that the rest of the players in our list were eligible---even ole
Charles Victory Faust.
Keep thinking of names, T206 scholars.

best,
barry

[Archive]

Posted By: J Levine

Barry,
I do understand why you feel that he was not "eligible" but these are fantasy cards, never to be made. I think a bunch of people would love to see a great player like Hill portrayed on a major card set. But if you want to leave him and others off your list because they did not play for a "sanctioned" league...that is your choice. Still a great topic though.

Joshua

[Archive]

Posted By: barry arnold

I agree that your idea would make a great topic, Joshua.
Just trying to give this one a wee bit of parameter so i can get a rough idea who was eligible and didn't get selected. This then gives us a little more data to discuss Ted Z.'s Caramel theory and the like.
You are so right in underscoring the gifted play of Hill and others who were
not in the 'sanctioned' leagues.
Thanks for your understanding.

best,
barry

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Joshua, I think you are misconstruing Barry's theme here when you think.....
"Since this is just sort of fantasy"

We are talking about actual Major Leaguers (some with great stats), that for some unknown reasons were not included
in the most popular BB set....the T206 set. This is not based on "fantasy"....but, is sparked by our intellectual curiosity.

T-Rex TED

[Archive]

Posted By: judson hamlin

I'll see your Shano Collins and raise you Slim Sallee (10 wins in '09).

Some of these players made their way into another ATC set- T201. Any thoughts on why Thoney, Gardner, Moore, Grant, et al were included there and not in the last series of T206?

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Regarding Ed Grant and Earl Moore....they were first in the 1910 NADJA Caramel set (E104) set. And, since the T201 is a 1911 issue.....
this could be another example of the Caramel-Tobacco "wars" with respect to player's rights to portray.

Jack Thoney played in only 13 games in 1909. Didn't play at all in the Majors 1910, and only 26 games in 1911. I'm surprised he is in the
T201 set.

And, Larry Gardner had a long and decent playing career and should've been in the T206 set. But, he played for Boston (AL)......so, was
he overlooked because of the "Boston slight" that was mentioned in an earlier post here ?

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The elusive Jack Coombs finally made it into a Tobacco set. He is teamed up with his battery mate....Ira Thomas.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: J Levine

Okay Ted and Barry...in the case you propose, how about Nick Altrock. Played during that time and certainly would be a popular t206 if made and I think he had a Horner photo as well (certainly in the w600 set).

Joshua