Where is Rudy Giuliani When We Need Him?

[Archive]

Posted By: Bruce Dorskind

One of the recurring themes on this (and other) chat boards is the fraud, misrepresentation,
manipulation and mistrust that permeates this hobby and the baseball memorabilia business.

Whilst this phenomena is not unique to baseball, or to the collectibles industry in general, it is
clear that we as collectors and investors have done very little to correct the situation.

Certainly, we can call attention to those who violate the rules, and certainly we can report the
most egregious offenses to the police or FBI. However we are then depending on a third party or the
government to act upon our interest.

Whilst we are great believers in capitalism and the power of the market to set prices, it is clear
that the playing field needs to be leveled.

We understand that there have been limited attempts in the past to form
National Collectors Associationsand other such groups but, our view is
that the 25,000+ collectors who invest $10,000 or more in baseball
memorabilia as well as the millions of fans and people who collect
something baseball need something more.

Background

It is in the interest of all of the hobbyists to have a market which is as clean
and authentic as possible
It is in the interest of the players and Major League Baseball
to have an industry which is not infected with counterfeit items.
It is in E Bay's interest to stop fraud.
It is clearly in the interest of the FBI to ensure that the public is protected.

Those who invest large sums of money need to be protected. Whilst it is fine
to suggest that one buy the card or the coin rather than the grade,
not everyone can, not everyone will.
The insurance companies don't want to insure fakes.

And regardless of how much you spend, you want to know in your
heart of hearts that what you bought was
bought fairly and that it is "as advertised."

Monitoring a $500 M industry may cost $1 million a year or more.
There needs to be a full time, albeit small regulatory body.
There need to be rules that everyone agrees to and there needs to be some
sort of license that enables dealers and auctioneers to sell.


The Plan

1. Form a committee of well respected hobbyists, investors, attorneys to work with
organizations that will support our efforts.

2. Have the committee set a limited number of objectives.

3. Make contact with the most senior executives at SEC, E Bay. Major League Baseball,
Chubb (and other insurance firms) and ask for their guidance in establishing
a regulatory body and their support in funding it

4. Leverage the power and influence of the most influential hobbyists-
some of whom are athletes,,broadasters, politicians and Fortune 100 Senior executives.

5. Once funding is in place, hire a staff of 3-5 people whose full time job will be to establish operating guidelines and monitor the industry.

6. Ask collectors and investors to pay token dues ($100 a year) to support the organization


The Committee

We are more than open to suggestions. Here is who we would like to see on it

1. Keith Olbermann
2. Jeff Lichtman
3. Corey Shanus
4, Dan Ganntt
5. Jim Blumenthal


We believe these five gentleman have the integrity, knowledge, understanding of the law,
and investment in the hobby that they can make a difference. There are two long-time
highly respected retired gentleman who are quite private (and below the radar) but
we are sure that if they wish to they could play an invaluable role.

We can help through some very senior access to Major League Baseball and Chubb.

Regardless of how we as a group (collectors and investors) attack this problem, we
can not afford to sit by.The Wall Street Melt down is a terrible. and for many,
a life changing event. The event never had to happen

If we fail to learn from itt...we are doomed to repeat it.


Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Good stuff Bruce--I have surfaced ideas like this in the past and some mock them as self serving--suspect it will be the same this time but what you call for is long overdue.

[Archive]

Posted By: CN

Bruce I agree with you about having some kind of regualatory board within our hobby. The hobby has grown too much and it would be a shame to see it crumble. Regarding Rudy, you can probably see him Sunday night since you both are probably going to see the Yanks. CN

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Bruce- those are good ideas but I don't know if you should nominate five people who may not have the time or interest to do this (and it's "Olbermann" for the record).

But a very good topic for discussion. As Jim C. mentioned, he did take the initiative and invited a bunch of us to his office in early 2007 to have a meeting and discuss this. Unfortunately, it didn't evolve.

Right now, the FBI is investigating one of the big auction houses for fraud, and I suspect they will include others too. Perhaps they will accomplish what hobbyists have not.

[Archive]

Posted By: Rick McQuillan

Bruce, this is an excellent idea. I would also suggest getting the major grading companies involved. $100 for an annual fee would be worthwhile if we could get some of the fake stuff out of the market. We might also want to get our state and local legislatures involved to come up with stronger laws and penalties for selling questionable items.

Rick

[Archive]

Posted By: Bruce Dorskind

Rick

Our problem with the grading companies, the dealers and the auctioneers
is that they are the ones we want to regulate and oversee.

If they are on the committee or members of the Board, it will be like having
the Foxx(pun intended) guarding the chickens.

We appreciate the positive input.

Let's throw out the first pitch and get ready.

With a bit of luck we could have everything in place by the 2009 National


Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

In the country it is a fox guarding the hen house... but almost the same thing.

We (you and I) agree that it should not be the grading companies, dealers, and auction houses who run the protective organization that you propose. They aren't the ones who potentially get burned, it is the collectors.


But $100 is a significant amount of money to me. And I don't see what $100, much less $100 a year, would protect me from. Seems to me that I protect myself satisfactorily already. And I don't offer this to bash slabbed cards, but you (not we) fans of graded cards must concede that one aspect of grading is that a few collectors rely on the opinion of grading companies and fall short in developing their own knowledge for determining card authenticity. In the old days a collector had to figure it out on their own, or rely on the knowledge of fellow collectors. They'd learn from another collector. I think that today some folks see a card in a slab and figure that what's on the label is what's in the slab.

I do hope you guys can get such an entity up and going, one that isn't driven by the grading companies, dealers, and auction houses. I can see that the need for such an organization is greater now, than it was 25 years ago. As the value of authentic collectables soars, the incentive to forge, alter, or fabricate increases. That, coupled with a reliance on the slips on slabs, has increased the need for such an organization.

25 years ago more collectors attended shows of varying sizes. They personally interacted with other collectors more, they saw more items in person. Today a greater portion of transactions occurs on the internet, so collectors look at digital images instead of cards. Nothing beats having the card in your hand.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Bruce's plan would obviously only be positive for our hobby but it can only work if auction houses agree to open their books (and bidders in auctions agree to have their identities and bidding habits reviewed). This will never happen because then the fraud will be uncovered and that is not in the interest of shill bidders. And auction houses would also complain about all that extra paper they would be required not to shred. I just don't see it happening unless bidders got together and demanded it -- with the refusal to participate in auctions the Sword of Damocles over the auction houses' heads.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Bidders are always free to boycott an auction. The problem, as we've previously discussed, is that cards trump everything.

If you felt an auction house was run by a serial killer, but they had that one rare card you've been looking for, well...you know the rest. And that's why auction houses get away with it.

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian Martin

I don't think we really need any politicians involved. Rudy Giuliani, like nearly all politicians is a disingenious individual. It's difficult to place trust in anyone these days except the closest of friends and immediate family members.

[Archive]

Posted By: LetsGoBucs

Bidders are always free to boycott an auction. The problem, as we've previously discussed, is that cards trump everything.

If you felt an auction house was run by a serial killer, but they had that one rare card you've been looking for, well...you know the rest. And that's why auction houses get away with it.
---------------------

That something that each individual can contribute to. To this day I don't place bids in Leland's auctions as a result of their repugnant decision to auction off a piece of Roberto Clemente's plane from the relief mission that he died in.

If people bid in auctions that they know or suspect are undertaking illegal practices then they have no one but themselves to blame for the state of their hobby.

Perhaps the FBI investigation will end up naming names and then we might see just how collectors react......

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

I like the idea in general. Some degree of oversight would be good, but would be very difficult to get given privacy issues for individuals. Perhaps a little investigative reporting like Dennis Purdy did in the early issues of VCBC. He brought down a couple of the hobby's "bad guys".

Bruce, while I appreciate the nomination and trust, I do not personally have the time to be at the center of such an endeavor.
Best,
JimB

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry--thats just not right--there are certain auction houses I will not buy from regardless.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- I appreciate that you bid selectively, but I know many collectors who will bid in any auction that has something they need, even if they feel they had in the past been shilled.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Barry, don't blame the victim.

Tell me, which auction houses through either strong circumstantial evidence, FBI investigations, prior fraud convictions of principals, etc. have NOT been associated with shill bidding at one time or another in the past few years?

Slim pickings remain.

[Archive]

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

I agree with Jeff's statement that nothing will ever be accomplished with Bruce's idea unless and until any such regulatory committee has the authority to make unannounced intrusive inspections of an auction house's books and bidding records. I'm not persuaded, though, that this cannot happen. Over the past several years I know of instances where a number of auction houses have expressed concerns about the legitimacy of some of the claimed prices realized of their competitors. It seems, then, that there is a desire within at least a portion of the auction house ranks to clean up the fraud in the auction business.

So, to those of you who run auction houses and are miffed that you are losing business to competitors you feel are rigging their auctions to "realize" such high prices, I posit the following challenge. Publicly announce that you are willing to allow your books and bidding records to be audited. Yes, you will have legitimate concerns about keeping confidential proprietary information, and legitimate concerns about respecting the privacy of your consignors/bidders. But I have no doubt those concerns can be addressed. Auditors can be required to sign confidentially agreements, in addition to being selected outside the ranks of the hobby (so nobody will be concerned they will use what they learned to have an unfair advantage in conducting hobby business). Then, publicly challenge your competitors to do the same. If they don't, then I would think you would have one terrific sales pitch -- not only do we talk the talk, we walk the walk.

Now, you might fairly wonder, is it worth all the trouble? After all, as has been noted, in the collecting world the card rules. Collectors will grumble about underhanded tactics yet continue to bid with the suspect auctions houses to get that prized card. To this concern I have two responses. First, the great majority of items sold by auction houses are not the extraordinarily hard-to-come by items. They are items that will within some reasonable time undoubtedly appear in another auction. Given this reality, maybe enough collectors will come around to understanding that by making a stand for honesty and integrity in the hobby and not bidding on non-extraordinarily hard-to-come items (the lifeblood of an auction house's business), they will not be adversely impacting their ability to add to their collections. But they will, by their forbearance, be doing something to making the hobby cleaner. So maybe it WILL garner more business for the honest auction house to go to the trouble. Second, what do you have to lose. If in fact you are honest and have nothing to hide, there seems to be no real downside, and possibly a big upside.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

That's a good idea Corey, but I suspect not too many dealers will agree to it, even the ones who have nothing to hide.

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

...and I'll say it here again. The concerns expressed in this post are the reasons why third party grading become such an important part of our hobby.

Many of us were burned in the 80's or earlier and only returned to the hobby with the assurances provided by PSA and later SGC. Currently, I trust SGC for all of my grading needs -- including avoiding fraudulent misrepresentations about a card's condition and unaltered status. If I ever run into an issue with SGC (as I did with PSA (over)grading (creased)trimmed cards), I will have to jump ship and go with another company -- or perhaps even discuss investing in something like what is contemplated here. But my opinion is still that SGC addresses all of my concerns in the hobby. I've never paid more for a card than I wanted to pay (that's why the potential for shill bidding has never bothered me); and I've never had to rely on SGC's money-backed guarantee.

In short, as a consumer of quality vintage sports cards, SGC satisfies all of my concerns.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

Corey,
I think those are great ideas. Perhaps this can happen. It would only take one major auction house to take the lead. I think they would see a marked increase in numbers due to the increase in confidence of bidders. Consequently, they will get the consignments too. It will put the pressure on the others to follow suit.

Paul,
I agree that 3rd party grading has helped with many of the dishonest practices that were prevalent fifteen to twenty years ago, but I don't think they solve all of them - including falsely inflating market prices by producing false results which get reported on VCP, etc. and become the gauge of fair prices down the line.
JimB

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

As soon as we become a "major" auction house maybe this will continue to be the trend? From our home page: (note tooting of own horn)


"Bidding Records, Altering, Trust- Brockelman and Luckey Auctions keeps all bidding records in perpetuity. If an issue ever arises they can be audited. All BIDDING RECORDS WILL REMAIN CONFIDENTIAL UNLESS THERE IS AN ISSUE. If a record is disclosed it will be made known to 3rd party sources (only) for verification of bids and to ensure the integrity of the auction process. We want bidders and consignors to have 100% confidence in our process and these UNIQUE rules, we believe, will further that objective. Brockelman and Luckey Auctions will not alter any cards, or other items, or ever have anything other than authentication done to them. We feel there is more to lose than to gain in this area of the hobby."



and back to topic....I think it would be good for there to be a collector's association. I am not sure of the dynamics but I do think it would be a good thing if it could be done in a professional, hobby-impacting way....

[Archive]

Posted By: jay wolt

Short of an act from Congress
not sure what can be done to legitimize this hobby 100%.
Grading companies, card sellers & auction houses work
behind closed doors, don't know what is needed to "open" them.

To me, knowledge is the best cure.
Know the cards you are buying and deal w/ the companies you trust.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jay, as for companies you can trust, how do you know that your friends at some auction houses are not committing fraud? They can come on this board, tell you what great guys they are, swear they are not committing fraud, have great customer service, great cards -- and rip you off blindly behind closed doors.

[Archive]

Posted By: jay wolt

Jeff - Understood!
But what can be done w/ the auction houses?
Full disclosure is great
But how would we know of any card has been altered
if it were done by a 3rd party and someone
else submits it to the grading companies other then
the auction houses?

[Archive]

Posted By: Bruce Dorskind

Back in 2004, we sold a number of items from our collection.

We retained the services of Robert Edward Auctions. When cataloging
the pieces Rob found three items that had either been altered or were
otherwise not as represented. In total these items were to have an
estimated value of $15,000.

With Rob Lifson's help and copies of the original
invoices we received checks within 48 hours. One of the firms admitted
privately that they had "doubts" about the piece when they sold it!!

In two cases, the sellers were auction houses that are still important players
in the hobby. The third case was Teletrade which no longer auctions baseball
cards. PSA had graded a very valuable 1941 Playball 8- and the card in the holder
was counterfeit. Teletrade and Rob arranged for PSA to buy the card back from us
at the price that we paid.

We would guess that 90% of all card and memorabilia transactions are completed
before the purchaser sees the item. While it is all well and good to say- buy the card
don't buy the holder, the reality is you are also buying the integrity of the seller.

One need look no further than this past week on Wall Street to see what happens to a firm
when the market loses faith in its integrity.

Let's hope that some plan can be put in place which will protect the collectors
and investors. Thanks for your comments on this thread.


Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

[Archive]

Posted By: John J. Grillo

I believe no oversight is necessary and education is the key. Taking the time to learn before a high value purchase would eliminate this sort of action.

Plus, in the past, part of the problem isn't the concept...it has been the messenger(s). Do you think I would give 100.00 to a committee (or whatever) started by a guy who cannot even write in basic conversational English? I'll just leave it at that.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim Dale

More government...no thanks!

I mean seriously look what "government" has done for the mortgage industry as of late...no thanks. Official or private - I don't need no stinking regulations.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

"I mean seriously look what "government" has done for the mortgage industry as of late...no thanks. Official or private - I don't need no stinking regulations."


While I tend to agree that there needs to be less govt instead of more, this idea of a collectors association is not some new thought. It has been talked about for the last 30 yrs, in the hobby. Actually, I am all for whatever gives collectors (myself included) more confidence in our great hobby. The FBI has certainly made us aware that there are in fact regulations.....I think all comments on this subject, when kept at least slightly civil , are good comments...take care

[Archive]

Posted By: Tony F

He was here in SURREY BC CANADA helping one of our local polititions with their election campaign

[Archive]

Posted By: DD

This board focuses on pre-war baseball cards. I would say that population of collectors is less than 1% of all collectors that would be affected, if auction houses and grading companies are to be involved, or monitored.

Even in terms of money, I doubt that all the pre-war sales annually combined will come close to the retail sales of current product, along with secondary sales of everything "post-war".

While most people on this board know who Jeff and Corey are, the average collector will not.

If pre-war collectors/dealers want to band together to put pressure on an auction house or grading company, then that is a separate topic. Everything else is arrogant presumption, and elitist, without even considering involving the rest of the collecting world.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bruce Dorskind

Whilst Dave may believe that the pre-war elite collectors account for
less than 1% of the hobby, we are not talking about the packs that are
sold in retail stores or $20 autograph baseballs.

If one looks at the published results from the top 15 auction sports houses
for the past two years, total sales are close to $200 million.

While there were literally thousands of bidders, our guess is that 500
or so collectors/dealers Davis alludes to acquired more than 50% of the items.

These are the very items where there is a both an incentive and an opportunity
for fraud.

We, as a hobb,y have to regulate the grading companies, the auctioneers and
the major dealers. If they violate our trust, and more importantly the law, they
MUST BE PUNISHED. Christies, Sothebys, a plethora of coin dealers and others
have been pursued and punished by the Government. Whilst many of those who
were punished still sell goods today, their ability to conspire on fees and/or sell
illegal items has been greatly restricted.

No system is perfect. But we need to try. We need highly skilled, well trained professionals
who will enforce the rules. If we publish report after report that a certain dealer
is not behaving properly and if we recommend that no one bid in a certain auction or
consign materials- the dealers will pay attention.

It won't be easy, but many Four Star Restaurants have fallen when it was discovered that
their kitchen was not clean.

Can you imagine a newsletter that goes to 10,000 collectors that says

Before you consign to XYZ Auctions consider the following

1) Evidence of trimming
2) Evidence of shill bidding
3) Remind a potential consignor what happens to his payment if the Auction Company
gets into trouble.

If this initiative is implemented in well panned way and all the so called elite collectors.
along with MLB,the insurance companies and E Bay support it- the auction companies
will have no choice.

This not a question of protecting the uneducated, lazy or elite, rather it is a question of
rules that protect all the participants in a $500 million business.


Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

[Archive]

Posted By: davidcycleback

In the area of fine art prints, there are two reputable dealers associations. Qualifying members are recognized as knowledgeable and experienced in their specialities and have to abide by strict rules-- providing lifetime guarantee of authenticity and paper description of the purchased artwork is required. For beginners, it's safe authenticity-wise to purchase from one of these member dealers or to purchase art that comes with LOA/Provenance of one of these dealers.

As there is lots of art forgery and scams, having available a list of reliable/expert fine art print dealers is an important service in and of itself. The good dealers themselves consider it a matter of prestige and sales to be a member, and are the first to want an organization that separates the wheat from the chaff.

Shilling is a particularly insidious problem, because its as covert and odorless as cabon dioxide gas. A collector can educate himself about grading, authenticity, book pricing, alteration, but even the best can be scammed via shilling and not know it. It erodes to devastates investments (bought at inflated prices), makes price guides unreliable (guides use shilled prices) and cheats the honest and etheical who don't employ illegal methods at resale. Trust me, if a major auctioneer is found to have widely shilled its customers, don't be surprised to see a class action suit involving anyone and everyone who purchased from the auction house. Getting away with something now, doesn't automatically mean getting away with it forever.

[Archive]

Posted By: samuel

I'm interested to know how regulation is the cause of the mortgage crisis...

but this is definitely a good concept; at the least, david's point about reputable dealer organizations in art is. if there's a way to cast out the bad dealers there isn't as much of a need for what you would term 'regulation.'

[Archive]

Posted By: Steve

Clean Sweep Auction keeps (and has almost always) kept bidding records and has no problem with any type of reasonable, non-destructive to our business, audit.

[Archive]

Posted By: davidcycleback

I agree that the best thing you can do is to provide a list of good dealers who agree to abide to the reasonable ethical rules.

In the art field, many collectors specifically refer to to the list of dealers before making a big purchase, or check to see if a dealer is a member. This is good for them and the hobby. There will still be collectors who purchase velvet Van Goghs out of the backs of vans even if you had hand delivered them a brochure titled "Never purchase a velvet Van Gogh out of the back of a van," but these types probably need the services of a psychiatrist more than an art historian.

It should be noted that the arts prints list is best when you're considering purchasing a $20,000 Picasso and you are unfamiliar with the dealer(s), their expertise, reputations and guarantees, and you yourself are no world's expert in Picasso authentication. Many art collectors, especially newbies, are either looking for a reliable dealer who sells Picassos or don't know the reputation of a specific dealer. Also, if you are looking at the paperwork accompanying a print that you inherited, it's reassuring to learn a purchase receipt (provenance) is from a reputable gallery. Most beginning collectors know there are scammers and forgers who want to take your money. Now, if you're purchasing a $10 poster you can purchase from whomever you wish, no big deal.

[Archive]

Posted By: DD

Edited to say, I'm sorry I let myself get sucked in when I said I wouldn't anymore.

[Archive]

Posted By: Rob D.

As polarizing a figure as Bruce is on this board, one who seems to thrive off of presenting himself foremost as some kind of elitist, I doubt he could get 50 people to pay a nickel each to watch an ant eat a bale of hay.

Certain aspects of the idea actually have merit. Bruce Dorskind as the torchbearer? Please.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

"More government...no thanks!

I mean seriously look what "government" has done for the mortgage industry as of late...no thanks. Official or private - I don't need no stinking regulations."

Not to get into politics, but this is the exact reason there needs to be oversight. Government de-regulation is a large part of the equation for why we are in the financial crisis we are now. Soundbite platitudes are fine for politicians trying to get elected, but let's be serious about reality. The wild-west of the sportscard/memorabilia industry has done nobody but the greedy and unethical any good.
JimB

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

What Jim B. said.

Deregulation has allowed a bunch of Wall Street morons the opportunity to nearly destroy our entire financial system --- while they raked in billions of dollars in bonuses and had to be bailed out like kittens from a tree. As for the auction business, no education will prevent one from being defrauded if no oversight exists. The purported education to prevent this -- keeping an eye on what the card one is bidding on is worth -- can be artifiically inflated due to previous shill bidding; thus, even the smartest of bidders can be ensnared in fraud. One indictment and dismnatling of a single auction house will hardly prevent some of the brazen fraud that currently exists in our hobby.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bruce Dorskind

Jeff makes an excellent point.

Without any oversight, people tend not to play fair.

Without the IRS, the Government would collect a great deal less in taxes

Without the highway patrol, there would far more speeding deaths

And without the FDA (far from perfect) what happens in China would be
commonplace in the US

The Baseball Memorabilia Hobby, $500M business that it is, is still only one of
many hobbies. There are certainly far more pressing issues for this country to address.

That said there is a group that holds power- the collectors and investors. The
group needs accurate information, a platform to address the issues and intelligent,
knowledgeable representation. The oversight committee we suggested would work
for us and be well paid to do so

No one disagrees that this concept would benefit everyone from the million dollar a yeat
collector/investor to the guy who buys an autographed Derek Jeter baseball for
his son or daughter's birthday.

Jeff- you are wildly successful criminal lawyer and an extremely knowledgeable collector.
What would you suggest we do? And how would you suggest we fund it?

Best,


Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Since you are advocating a buyers "constitution" is there a sellers one?

How do you feel about someone not paying for their auction lot if they win it?


I really, really would like to hear your thought on that. regards

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Bruce, two things: first, more grand jury investigations; and second, all auction houses agree to let their bidding records be examined by an independent third party.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Bruce,

I'm good for a hundred--long overdue and very similar to what I tried to push again and again only to have the "experts" on this board beat it to death.

I will send you their names and what they will say--its as predictable as the sun rising tomorrow.

[Archive]

Posted By: paulstratton

So would having a lawyer do the actual bidding/consigning on your behalf protect your personal information in any way?

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim Dale

Personally I don't much agree with the comparisons offered about highways \ highway patrol and I'm sorry that I was the one who tossed out the "mortgage" industry as its comparisons don't really apply either.

To me there are unwritten rules. I have learned of sellers that I don't buy from - I ignore them even if they have that ONE card I really covet and I have plenty of extra money available. Sadly I know people that don't much care for me due to my opinions and have decided not to buy from me; but gladly I know I have never cheated anyway (have I made mistakes yes, but mistakes can be corrected and I try to do that). I can live with the decisions of others to act the way they want. The GRAND thing about this Internet is we can relatively quickly learn who's naughty and nice; and deal with those we want too.

As for voluntary associations - great. As its a hobby I can tell a voluntary association is the only one possible. I like graded cards; I know there are people who love RAW cards and disparage graded material. I feel like an association is just going to create another divide - much like that one. Those who belong - those who don't.

I prefer the unwritten rules...or if you belong to Rotary - the written one's.

[Archive]

Posted By: Rich Klein

Bruce has an excellent idea in what he'd like to do. Frankly, any professional group of card people is long overdue that compared to some other hobbies such as coins and stamps we are still in our infancy.
(My dad was a vest-pocket stamp dealer back in the day and I knew enough coin dealers -- and one reason both hobbies still survive is the professional organizations which exist)

Now there are several questions/issues

1) Is this group JUST for collectors, or for collectors/dealers/auction houses/grading companies/card companies/licensors.

And then is it just for the small but financially important group of pre-war collectors, etc. Or is everyone going to be invited to join

2) What benefits does someone get from joining this group. I know that if I spent $100 to join a group, I'd expect to recieve some immediate benefits in addition to planting a seed for longer term growth and long-term benefits

3) One of the major issues with the hobby has always been that everyone has their own entrepenureal (Sic, barry please fix my spelling) streak. How do you make everyone convinced that they need to join for the common good.

4) Bruce, who originally posted this, has probably read in his vast hobby publication collection, that this has been tried, sometimes by some of the major players of the hobby, for more than 30 years.

Don't get me wrong, I think this is a great idea and one that we as a hobby need to see come to fruition. And if we start with just the vintage community and move from there that is fine by me; but I'd be interested to see just how far we all get