Update: **STILL** A Scammer: Bill Bellamy (volvo947@sympatico.ca)

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Posted By: quan

Ok, so there are 2 sides to every story, but I feel mine is about 99% accurate and with Leon and the mods' approval I'm going to out the scammer Bill Bellamy.

I'd bought an e93 Mathewson from him for $615 shipped from Canada...bst thread below:

http://tinyurl.com/3ae26a

The scan in the OP was a cropped front scan...hiding a trimmed bottom border. Also notice 2 edits by him...one in the OP on 12/10/2007 and another a couple posts down on 11/25/2007 after peter's inquiry.

Concerned with the cropped scan...I'd offer to buy the card for $600 provided "if bottom border is normal". His reply stated nothing of the bottom border so I thought it was fine, and agreed to a $615 deal. Upon receipt of the card yesterday I noticed right away the bottom is trimmed and told him so and if he didn't agree I can send it to SGC. He agreed saying "sure send it to SGC and lmk what they say".

It was so OBVIOUS that I told him I can just send it to Leon and Scott Brockelman to take a look and save $30, to this he also said fine. Since the trimming is so OBVIOUS~! I blew up 2 scans for Leon and he was 100% confident right away that it was trimmed w/o having to see it in person...and I should demand a full refund. Scans are below, left is his scan compared to mine on the right.



When it was confirmed trimmed his tune totally changed. He said I should've asked about the card before buying (which I did)? He'd posted in the OP it was short?? He has 100% ebay feedback and doesn't stand behind cards he sells???

Here's where the edits come in handy. I told him not remembering about the "maybe length is short" in OP and wondered if he just edited on 12/10/07 after the deal broke, he told me the edit was to state the card as SOLD! How nice of him to inform everyone again a card on the 4th page of the BST that it was sold about a month after the fact...to reiterate his post on 11/15/07 that card was sold. He's adamant about the fact I should've asked questions beforehand, but it's hard getting through to a thief and a scammer.

I have alot more to say but it's getting long so I will just add more info if the board have any questions or I would love to hear others' feedback whether I should accept any responsibility in any of this. Bill did offer a partial refund of $150 (wow! jump at it!!! right???) which I did not agree to.

Leon's told me this is the 1st outright scam he's remembered on the board... YAYYYY


CLIFFNOTES: Bill Bellamy the scammer sold me a card knowingly trimmed, then refuses to offer a complete refund(~$615) because he's shady and basically shifts all the blame to me. I'm 100% correct and have all detailed info thus Leon/Brian sided with me 100% thus the post to warn everyone.



*****1/20/2008 Update*****: Bill wanted Leon to mail him a letter through the post office apologizing for Leon's harsh(?) words during the mediation process before he'd send a refund. No surprise after a month after the letter was sent he still has not received it...I refuse to play games with a scammer so this is basically to update everyone what we already knew...Bill Bellamy is a hobby cancer and a scammer.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Wow, that sucks. I know that occasionally there's a B/S/T deal that goes bad, but hardly ever involving the better-respected guys on this board, and NEVER an outright scam.

Quan, from what I can see, your responsibility in this transaction is somewhere in the neighborhood of, well, zero.

Way to go, Bill. It appears as if you stiffed one of the most reputable guys on this board, a guy who contributes quite a bit to this forum and uses the B/S/T all the time. I'm sure you'll have no problems selling cards here in the future. Hopefully that $615 stretches a long way, because it's going to be awfully tough for you to get another penny out of the members of this board. Way to be forward-thinking.

Sorry to hear about the bad deal, Quan.

-Al

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Posted By: leon

Quan is correct and this guy is not a good seller. Blatant rubbish spewing from his mouth. First scammer on Net54, to the best of my knowledge....

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Posted By: JK

That's pretty bad Quan. As noted in another thread about bst deals - there is a higher standard expected on bst as compared to ebay (of course, you dont expect outright scams on ebay either). Regardless of whether he edited the post after the fact to add the part about the bottom being short (which, based on the timing of the edits, Im sure he did) or not, if you sell to someone on bst, and they are not happy with the card, then take the card back. Thanks for the heads up Quan. This is one person I wont deal with any longer.

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Posted By: quan

yea thanks guys, i was worried you wouldn't see my side

...and yes josh it's a bunch of rhetorics and filibustering anyways (or b.s. for short). any honest seller would correctly describe his cards and stand behind them, especially "100% ebay feedback" sellers.

the offer of $150 partial refund is insulting and that's alot of money (150 junior whoppers! at Burger King)...but I felt it's better to let the board knows than me trying to lose all that weight anyways.

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Posted By: BIll

in defense to this scammer post, i think otherwise . i stated in the original post "length maybe short". i even emailed him stating this before the sale. i had offered him a partial refund, and for him to keep the card. he didnt take it. i tried to resolve the issue but he wouldnt think otherwise. here is the post:

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"I have a nice e93 Christy Mathewson for sale. looking for $675 obo for it (shipping included). has NO paper loss, and has one crease on the bottom right. length maybe short. i have back scan if needed.

a PSA 1 on ebay just sold for $790and another psa 1 with paperloss sold for $600. so i meet it in the middle. i accept paypal/ MOs etc etc etc
thanks for looking"


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i had edited dec 10th in the post because that was when Quan recieved the card. i edited the title SOLD, to finish the deal. he emailed me that day stating it was short,(it was stated in the post). i said you can get it graded by SGC and they will put it in a holder stating AUTH. he then wanted a refund for the card. i was puzzled. i stated to him that it says it in the post, and also i had emailed him about it before sale. he then stated "I dont remember that", in a sentence of the emails (i would post the email or a CC of the email, but i dont think this forum allows it). i cant not take a refund because it i clearly stated in the post.

I was not out to "scam" Quan by any means. I believe Quan is a good person. If he had read the post correctly, there would be no problems.

I had offered him a partial refund and for him to keep the card, but he refused. i tried to fix the situation but he refused to talk it through, and come to no conclusion. i was talking to Quan most of the day trying to settle this situation. but he refused to even thing about it.

i am not a scammer, i have perfect feedback on ebay , and never had a problem selling cards here for 7 years. i will repeat I DID NOT try to scam Quan. I cant not give refunds because a buyer fails to read an ad.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Bill,

Do the right thing then and give Quan his money back and you get the card, which you can sell again to someone who understands what it is he is getting and wants what he is getting. What is the harm? You may enjoy perfect trading history on ebay but you will be finished here.

Edited to add that the image you sent Quan of the back does not adequately show the card is blatantly trimmed. The bottom is conveniently obscured. That alone should warrant him a refund.

Greg

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Posted By: quan

bill,

yahoo saves all the email history. no where did u mention the bottom border after I asked the question...here's the "transcript" of me asking and the email right after:

hey bill,

all i see is a couple creases and soiled/dirty back correct? if there's no tear and bottom border is normal i would like to offer $600 for the card thanks.

"soiled a bit with some markings. no tears at all. let me know asap i have many who want
BIll"

I think it's pretty cut and dry here. I don't think you get the point anyways...you knowingly sold a trimmed card and if the buyer didn't know any better you were going to take advantage of him/her. In this case I knew better and you still went through with it!

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Posted By: Dave F

Definately shady looking with the picture up top with the card bottom not visible in the scan...

Bill....You will get slaughtered here.

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Posted By: Wesley

Bill,

The way you scanned the card with the bottom edge cut off at the bottom is dishonest. Just send the buyer the money in return for the card. You can be done with this transaction and be recognized as someone who is willing to correct his mistakes rather than someone who cannot be trusted.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

"May be a little short" ???? That is so obvious of a trim it just flat out should have been mentioned. I doubt anyone going by the signin of "T206King" and has been on this forum for 7 years can't tell that card is trimmed.

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Posted By: quan

again, i think pertinent text was added later on with the edit. i have said before on the board that i usually take the seller's word if something is wrong...i.e. card is reprint, card is short/trimmed. i would've certainly asked for better front/back scans than a hazy superblasted-whited out back scan if i'd seen the card is short.

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Posted By: JimB

I have done numerous deals with Quan and have met him in person several times. He is one of the most straightforward and honest guys (not to mention knowledgable) I know in the hobby. This seems like a pretty clear one. If Bill has any integrity, he will give Quan a full refund.

I'm sure there are plenty of people that would want a trimmed E93 Matty. Quan is not one of them and he was deceived into thinking this one was not trimmed - even when he asked specifically.

Just refund his money. If nothing else, you own reputation is not worth dragging this one out. The longer this take, the more your name is mud.
JimB

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

I cant not give refunds because a buyer fails to read an ad.

Actually, you can. You just are choosing not to. I guess $615 buys your integrity.

Bill

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Posted By: JK

"I cant not give refunds because a buyer fails to read an ad."


What do you think this is? Ebay?
You can get away with that crap on Ebay, but not here. If a card isnt what the buyer was expecting, you should refund the money regardless of what you claim to have put in your post. You certainly didnt put "No Refunds" anywhere in your post.

On top of that, the scan, if not intentionally done, is certainly misleading, and, your disclaimer that the card "might be short" is misleading when you knew or should have known for a fact that its trimmed.

You'll get your card back and if you really think its worth $465 trimmed (the net price after your refund offer) and sell it for that much, you will come out even. You have no good reason not to take the card back.

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Posted By: paulstratton

Bill,

You were good in "Any Given Sunday" and "How to be a Player", but give Quan his money back.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

you didnt notice the really evident trimming at the bottom as Mr.Ullman stated? This is not an attempt to rub anything in ,but I wish you would have noticed. I didnt pay any attention cause dont like that card, but wish I could have lend an extra eye. This is what other reasons we hope we are here for....to help our commrades against the villains like that smuch !

Iam married into the 2nd largest hispanic familia in my region,so need me to call "big guns" or "lil Chuey"...give me a ring !

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Posted By: quan

dan,

this is where i believe where he made his 2nd edit on 11/23/07 in his response to peter. if i remember correctly...the original message was along the line of "bad scan, bottom cropped...". notice how peter did not leave an email address, and bill had his email wrong to start with...so the "emails sent" edit does not make any sense...and came 8 days after his post on 11/15 stating card has been sold??? Some things don't add up.

I'm a great conspiracy theorist...ask me who shot JFK?

I'm editing again to make a point...all edits are recorded...of course peter can shoot my whole theory down by saying he did receive an email on 11/23/07 saying the card is trimmed and was sold.

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Posted By: barry arnold

Give quan a full refund; it's the ethical thing to do.

best,

Barry

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Posted By: Elliot

Pretty obvious here, Quan asked about the bottom edge because he was concerned about it from the cropped scan. The seller by ignoring the question implied it was fine, not trimmed. This has nothing to do with the card being short, the card is trimmed. Clearly a refund should be given. Bill, even if you think you are correct, your reputation in this community is contingent on you giving a full refund.

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Posted By: dstudeba

" cant not give refunds because a buyer fails to read an ad. "

This is crap. If the buyer is unhappy with the product a refund should be given.

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Posted By: Brian

I guess the good news here is that fewer people will be reading his "ads" going forward.

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Posted By: Brent Butcher

I don't post much on the board but I have noticed lately a few individuals being banned for OT posts. Wouldn't it be more beneficial to the respected board members to ban individuals such as Bill for dishonesty and lack of integrity? If Bill decides to do the right thing and refund the money plus make a public apology for allowing this to be aired then he is reinstated. Just my 2 cents...

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Posted By: Dave F

I think usually in these cases the person who has done wrong realizes it after an entire thread is devoted to telling him so...hopefully Bill will realize the damage he is causing himself over $600.

I think Quan is a good guy, have done a couple deals with myself...so I do believe his order of events and when something may have been edited on Bill's post. It sucks having to bring these types of things unto the board...but usually they do seem to get worked out when it comes to this.

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Posted By: Paul Moss

"If he had read the post correctly, there would be no problems."

Uh huh

Wiggle-words.

Had you written the post correctly, you would have used the word TRIMMED.

Refund Quan IN FULL, and recapture some credibility.

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Posted By: Jim VB

Have never done business with either guy, so I'm neutral here.

Bill,

It's very shortsighted of any seller to refuse to stand behind his product. Your 100% feedback with Ebay may stand, but the number of bidders will drop off. The 7 years you have invested selling on this board will be wasted as that part of your sales will dry up.

Your methods here were questionable, at best. (I'm not saying your intentions, just the methods.) You posted a cropped scan. Quan asked a specific question about several factors. You answered some, but avoided the subject of the bottom border. You edited the post late and no one can determine what the edit was. In total, it makes you look bad.

From a customer service standpoint, it would be best to suck it up and undo the deal.

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Posted By: Dave S

"i am not a scammer, i have perfect feedback on ebay , and never had a problem selling cards here for 7 years. i will repeat I DID NOT try to scam Quan. I cant not give refunds because a buyer fails to read an ad."

Bill...if you've been selling for 7 years (and hope to continue doing so), don't you realize that your unwillingness to refund $600 is going to cost you more than that in future sales? Whether your clipped scan was intentional or not, Quan obviously was not delivered the card he thought he bought. Refund the money, put it behind you, and try to save face...

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Posted By: Matt

Anyone know this guy's paypal ID? Need to know who to stay away from.

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Posted By: Marty

Suggestion to all future transactions on BST. Include the written description in the first email contact. If it is edited later, you will have the original. I have done a few deals from BST without issue. There is no down side to giving refund if customer is not happy other than having the card out of stock for ten days.

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Posted By: PC

Bill -- you're done on the B/S/T without a prompt response indicating a full refund.

The B/S/T is caveat emptor and all that, and there were definitely misaligned expectations between you and Quan, but that doesn't really matter -- while you can stick Quan with the trimmed card, you are probably only going to be able to do that once. Not worth it in my opinion.

Most of my purchases in the last two years have been on the B/S/T. And I've avoided certain sellers for a lot less. I'm sure I'm not alone in that approach.

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Posted By: ockday

Bill ..you are being penny wise and dollar foolish.
Give Quan a full refund and show that you are an honorable dealer ..it will benefit you in the long run.

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Posted By: MW

Bill,

Do the right thing and refund Quan's money.

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Posted By: Steve Murray

I have refrained from posting to threads of this nature but now feel compelled to do so. It would never occur to me not to refund a purchase price if a buyer wasn't satisfied, for WHATEVER reason. Bill, your position just doesn't make any sense at all.

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Posted By: Mike

I too am a Canadian seller and have sold a few different high end vintage cards to Quan over the years. He is a class act who pays right away and as a customer, you couldn't ask for more.

Why would you want to alienate a guy like this and everyone else on this board? In the big picture, $615.00 is not a pile of dough and if you are planning on staying in this business, why not clean up this deal and just give him his refund?

You will probably be able to recoup a fair chunk of coin just selling the card as authentic anyways.

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Posted By: quan

thank you to all the members for their support.

bill has tentatively offered a refund if a couple conditions are met. big thanks to leon who's more involved now to this than he's ever thought.

quan

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Posted By: Steve

Great to hear that this is being resolved. Leon does go above abd beyond.


Steve

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Posted By: quan

Just a final update to close up this matter...

Bill said he would issue a refund if Leon personally write him a letter through regular mail apologizing for his rough(???) language during the mediation process. Leon bit his tongue and sent the letter out but not surprisingly a month letter and Bill still have not received the letter. I refuse to play any more of his games so just know he's a hobby cancer and a scam artist.

No more than 10 hours after putting the card up on ebay and warning everyone:

http://members.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=donrussed

...did I get an email from the original ebay'er who sold the card to Bill:

Just FYI I sold this card to Bill last year for about $310 with his firm understanding that the bottom was trimmed. Just thought you should know.
Best regards, xxx

Can't say I'm surprised. Thanks to Leon during the process as he was more than patient in trying to get my money back.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Quan,

Sorry to hear that you did not get a satisfactory resolution. You might think about posting here as well. http://forums.ebay.com/db2/forum.jspa?forumID=83

Bill seems like a total loser.

Greg

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Posted By: Ken McMillan

personally, If a buyer does not like the product for whatever reason, I would refund the money. My reputation is worth more to me than any amount of money. You could also agree to send the card to SGC and split the cost. A fair and equitable solution for both parties which would not involve the board and preserve all reputations and opinions of the board. That way there are no bad guys. We should also stop the name calling and get back to cards!!!! I'm sure Leon would agree.

Ken

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Posted By: quan

yes, he is a loser. i've asked the original seller of the card for bill's ebay id, so i'm working on it. once i know i will post all the relevant info on that forum also. thanks!

quan

re: ken...you're not thinking like a scammer.

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Posted By: Steve

So basically for 300.00 this guy blew his rep?


Sad


Steve

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Posted By: quan

ahh also ken this goes beyond name callings and O/T threads...which I make a point to stay out of.

Being scammed by a fellow board member is important news...don't ya think?

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Posted By: JimB

Ken and Quan,
I agree with Quan. We all should be warned about how this guy operates. Among the many good functions of this board is to be a public watchdog for scammers.
JimB

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Posted By: leon

This guy, Bill, thinks like a scammer to wit: When he was negotiating with Quan, before I was asked to get involved, Bill told Quan that what he had (evidence) would never hold up in court...or words to that exact effect. That made me want to puke. To me that is not someone that should be allowed on the board or on the BST pages and I do know ALL of the details....This board, and especially the BST, is friendly, first and foremost. That court crap is ridiculous. I can't stand scammers....again, just my opinion. regards

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Posted By: marty qunn

hey quan, thanks for the heads up with this guy, i have been very active as of late buying pre-war, i think i almost bought from this guy on ebay? glad to cross him off my list.

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Posted By: Ken McMillan

hey quan,

If you read my post about the refund. I'm on your side. I think he should refund the money. I had an item on ebay that I sold (a pez) which was accurately described and the buyer didn't like it for what ever reason. She returned it And I relisted it and sold it for $50.00 higher. I think Bill should do the same. I do however think the board should get back to its original purpose (vintage baseball cards). It just gets a bit old to see drama here and in public forums in general. And I am not saying Bill is right in the way he is handleing the situation. If I were Bill, I would do the right thing. Enough said, not a pretty post. And for Leon, he shouldn't have to apologize to anyone, it's his forum. A letter from Leon should have nothing to do with the situation...........Right Leon?

Ken

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Posted By: quan

no biggie ken we're on the same side i just wanted to update everyone and bring closure to the thread...as my last post on the matter had some hope that a resolution might be forthcoming.

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Posted By: leon

That is correct....but Bill said he would give Quan a full refund if I wrote some sort of stupid letter and sent it snail mail to him...apologizing for coming down on him too hard. I know I didn't but all I had to lose was 5 minutes and .41 cents to help Quan out. Was no big deal so I took it on the chin and sent the letter. Bill says he never got it from a month or so ago....There NEVER should have had to be a stupid letter in the first place. He should have done the right thing immediately...or at least after giving it a little thought. This guy will not be allowed back on the board until Quan is made whole on the deal or I am convinced otherwise.....regards

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Quan, what is his ebay handle?

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Posted By: Ken McMillan

cool Quan,

Understand your post. I hate dishonest people as much as you. It sucks when things become about the money. I collect because i enjoy cards and that is the good thing about the forum. I feel you are an honest person and if we ever had an issue on a transaction, we would work together to resolve it. Bill should have worked it out before it ever got to this point and Leon should have been left out of the entire picture. Good luck on the card.

kmac