"Auctioneer Bashing" by Joe Orlando

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Posted By: Matt

For discussion:

In Defense of Quality Auctioneers

Joe Orlando

The industry is a small place in many respects and word can travel fast, especially something of a negative nature. With the popularity of message boards on the Internet, communication between people is easier than ever. When a disgruntled hobbyist decides to launch a verbal assault on someone, it can be done with a few strikes on a keyboard.

One of the entities in our business that endures a great deal of abuse is the auction house. For the purpose of this article, I am talking about the high-end auction house. I am not including auction venues such as eBay, even though high-end items sell on sites such as this each day. These auction houses offer thousands of items each year, including many items in the $5,000 and higher category. We are talking about a segment of the industry that contains fewer than a dozen notable competitors yet they combine to generate nearly $100 million in revenue annually.

Despite the sheer volume of items offered, some hobbyists are very quick to point out a mistake. Even if the mistake is only one in 1,000 lots, this type of person salivates at the chance to disparage an otherwise terrific sale. Maybe it’s personal or a result of character flaw in the offending party? Whatever the reason, it does nothing to help the hobby and it is often unfair to the target of such animosity.

Believe me, as the leading 3rd party authenticator in the hobby, we know what it’s like to act as the punching bag for frustrated hobbyists. When you are often in the business of delivering bad news, you have to know how to absorb verbal punishment. For the betterment of the entire industry, all I would ask of these people is to focus on helping the hobby instead of hurting it. I would also ask that people keep honest mistakes in perspective.

We are all human. Experts make mistakes. Collectors make mistakes. So do auction houses. How they handle mistakes is what separates a good auction house from a bad one. The fact that they make mistakes just means they are imperfect like the rest of us. Please keep in mind that I am, in no way, coming to the defense of auction houses that ignore evidence that an item is problematic or ones that treat their customers poorly.

If you see a problem with an auction lot, don’t you think the company would want to know if there’s an issue? While some auction houses may ignore the new information, the ones who are interested in preserving their name would embrace it, especially when they can avoid controversy and bad press.

Recently, I was looking over an ad for a notable auction company and noticed what appeared to be a problem with one of the items. I simply called one of my contacts at the company and let him know of the potential problem. After reviewing the item further, they pulled the piece from the sale and thanked me for alerting them of the issue. They were not offended at all but appreciative that someone took the time to alert them instead of concealing the information to only bash them publicly at a later time.

If you care about the hobby, as I do, then you will do the same. Good companies care about their reputation and do not want to be associated with controversial items if they can avoid it. Communicating with auction houses is a good thing. None of us can know it all and all of us make mistakes. Make the hobby a better place by sharing information and avoid becoming a naysayer. It serves no purpose.

Never get cheated,
Joe Orlando

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Posted By: Adam

Is there a specific Net 54 thread you think he had in mind when he wrote that?

Edited to add: If so, which one(s)?

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Posted By: Dave F

Probably talking about his own board Adam. I don't think Joe spends much time over here these days.

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Posted By: Rick McQuillan

And everyone lived happily everafter.

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Posted By: DD

I wish he was more specific when he mentions the lot that he alerted the auction house to. I doubt the veracity of this without something more detailed. Was it a mistake made by another authenticator (oh, sorry, Joe doesn't personally authenticate anything), or a mispelling (misspelling) in a description?

Certainly, it could not have been a mistake made by PSA, because if they ever have made a mistake, it was surely addressed smartly.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

how glad I am to know Joe is on the job. Surely he's the hobby's best detective. I am absolutley positively certain that there is no more to this story--that Joe acted purely out of altruism and love of the hobby (if he acted as stated at all).

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Joe is weak. And desperate. And his tagline of "never get cheated" is sadly ironic.

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Posted By: David Davis

Does his editorial mean that PSA has an interest in the image that auction houses have? No wonder I see ads that indicate record prices of PSA cards by the auction house, and PSA showing the record prices the auction houses received for one of their graded cards.

I thought that the average collector collectively was their biggest customer? Where's the editorial on improvements in customer service, or specials that are catered to vintage or high $ cards? Those are the cards you brag about; how about some appreciation to the people that make that happen, which is all of us.

I think PSA is a positively second-rate alternative.

Keeping auction houses honest insures good business for everyone. If the auction house in question would just address the issues with the people that raise them, in a public forum or not, it would improve their image.

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Posted By: Anthony S.

Hmm. So apparently the "P" and the "A" in PSA stand for Passive-Aggressive. Does the "S" represent sanctimonious?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Joe is basically blaming the victim here.

Since everything is so hunky-dory in the auction house world -- and it is "disgruntled" hobbyists that are whacking the auction houses around, I would propose a wager with Joe Orlando: I'll put 100K up against Joe's 100K that if the principals of the auction house he is referring to undergo polygraph examinations and are asked one question -- "are you aware of any employee or representative of your auction house who has engaged in shill bidding or efforts to run up any of your bidders in any of your auctions?" -- at least one of them will be determined to have known of such conduct. If I'm right, Joe pays me 100K; if I'm wrong he gets my money.

Instead of "never gets cheated", perhaps Joe can use "never cheat" in the future.

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Posted By: David Davis

With apologies to Rod Serling

You're traveling through another criticism, a criticism not only of right and wrong but of having a spine. A journey into a wondrous thread whose boundaries are that of imagination. That's the signpost up ahead - your next stop, the Chris Morales thread.

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Posted By: Dennis W.

I don't post often even though I've been a member for 4-5 years, but I found it impossible to ignore this thread. Why would PSA even care about the auction industry? Why is Mr. Orlando coming to the defense of an auction house(s) out of the blue? Why should we believe that auction houses get no grading preference over us ordinary Joe's when he makes such a statement?

(I post as Dennis W. to distinguish myself from the other Dennis's on the board. My name is Dennis Wilson and my email address is posted to satisfy Leon's requirement for identification in cases where statements may be construed as being critical of others)

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Posted By: MikeU

"Joe is basically blaming the victim here.

Since everything is so hunky-dory in the auction house world -- and it is "disgruntled" hobbyists that are whacking the auction houses around, I would propose a wager with Joe Orlando: I'll put 100K up against Joe's 100K that if the principals of the auction house he is referring to undergo polygraph examinations and are asked one question -- "are you aware of any employee or representative of your auction house who has engaged in shill bidding or efforts to run up any of your bidders in any of your auctions?" -- at least one of them will be determined to have known of such conduct. If I'm right, Joe pays me 100K; if I'm wrong he gets my money.

Instead of "never gets cheated", perhaps Joe can use "never cheat" in the future."

I will throw in $5K for the Memory Lane/PSA gang to undergo a polygraph. Have you ever researched VCP for Memory Lane relized prices vs. REA/Mastro/eBay etc. Many, many common cards realizing multiples of the others, outright outlandish. It isn't better marketing or mailing lists my friends.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

A good and fair rule is to report a legitimate problem to the auction house first before posting it a public board like this. Gives the auction house the chance to address/correct an error first. This should be a common courtesy offered to all (excluding obvious scam artists). If the auctioneer doesn't respond or correct the legitimate error, then the poster could feel free to address it publicly.

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Posted By: Cat

Nodgrass

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Posted By: Fred C

Joe Orlando speaks...

A few mistakes are made by auction houses and "disgruntled" hobbyists want to go on the attack.

Hey Joe, what about all the disgruntled hobbyists that go on the attack about PSA. Are they being unfair? Why doesn't Joe just say PSA makes their share of mistakes? Why not let people know what PSA will do to rectify the problems they create? Maybe I took the "article" out of context but when Joe said that people should just inform the auction house of problems did he mean problems associated with PSA grading or just vintage material in general?


Edited to add the following...

Oh yeah, PSA sucks!

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Posted By: John

“One of the entities in our business that endures a great deal of abuse is the auction house. For the purpose of this article, I am talking about the high-end auction house. I am not including auction venues such as eBay, even though high-end items sell on sites such as this each day. These auction houses offer thousands of items each year, including many items in the $5,000 and higher category. We are talking about a segment of the industry that contains fewer than a dozen notable competitors yet they combine to generate nearly $100 million in revenue annually. Despite the sheer volume of items offered, some hobbyists are very quick to point out a mistake. Even if the mistake is only one in 1,000 lots, this type of person salivates at the chance to disparage an otherwise terrific sale. Maybe it’s personal or a result of character flaw in the offending party? Whatever the reason, it does nothing to help the hobby and it is often unfair to the target of such animosity.”

Right couldn’t agree more Mr. Orlando so why even take a chance with any questionable lot in the first place seems a shame to throw away such a reputation for a chance to make a few bucks…Why even take the chance to add disclaimers to any lot, if you need to add a disclaimer perhaps you shouldn’t auction the item to begin with.

"this type of person salivates at the chance to disparage an otherwise terrific sale."

Not sure the Nodgrass would have been a terrific sale...do you Mr. Orlando?

“If you see a problem with an auction lot, don’t you think the company would want to know if there’s an issue? While some auction houses may ignore the new information, the ones who are interested in preserving their name would embrace it, especially when they can avoid controversy and bad press.”

Great point again Mr. Orlando so where are we with this? Now’s a great time to bring some positive publicity to an unfortunate situation…one that you have been made aware of several times now for the record....

http://tinyurl.com/58uewb




Sound words of advice...thanks PSA!

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

"If you care about the hobby, as I do..." was the proof to me that this letter was nothing more than Joe trying to quiet down PSA critics. Since when has Joe demonstrated he cares about the hobby? When PSA decided to go with half grades and guarantee that upon review your card would either come back unchanged or in a higher holder sending back into circulation cards which were over graded or altered? Or maybe it was when he behind the scenes helped his friend and PSA's number one advertiser to recert cards from a previous auction so they appeared as different cards in the advertiser's next auction months later? Of course one of my favorites were Joe showed he cared about the hobby as much as the rest of us do is when he did as little as possible to alert collectors about the wide spread fraud that was perpetrated by When It Was A Game. How many cards have I personally submitted to Joe for the graders' review which I knew were altered and each time came back with the explanation the cards were graded correctly? Ah yes, Joe's interest in the well being of this hobby is endless. If Joe ever was behind anything that was in the best interest of the hobby I must have blinked and missed it.

Greg

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Posted By: John

Jeff what size are you for our next dinner in NY?

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Posted By: Greg Sonk

I'm both shocked and appalled that you guys would think that was anything but the heartfelt plea of a bastion of light in the lifeless void of our hobby. Of course Joe has the best interests of the hobby in mind.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1176682851/last-1176853896/Memory+Lane+Redux-
http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1177137458/Re-+THE+MEMORY+LANE+FULL+STORY

If they delete all mention from their message board, it clearly never happened. Right?

I haven't bought a PSA card since the day that thread was posted.

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Posted By: Ted Sherman

I love the shirt! I think wrote it so his MAJOR contributors would keep sending him their business. MAMMARY lane, Andy MAdec, and all these other auctions house that fill about 95% of the SMR each month. BTW I am a PSA memeber and I haven't opened the SMR in a year...anyone want and mint fresh unopened copies

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Posted By: Larry P.

I would assume that many major auction houses de facto shill bid. In fact, several state in the auction rules that their own employees and representatives can bid on items in the auction.

In my mind this is tantamount to allowing shill bidding. Many other types of auction houses allow this as well, so it is a common practice throughout the auction industry. As a bidder, I don't like it one bit, but is it cheating, if the rules allow it? Or is it even unethical?

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Posted By: barrysloate

I'm not sure I would equate allowing an employee to bid with shill bidding. While it is not a widely accepted practice, auction employees do have personal collections. So I believe there is a distinction between bidding on something for one's collection and running up a ceiling bid for the sake of a higher price.

That said, it is preferable employess do not bid. Likewise, it's not clear that the right precautions are in place to make sure the bidding is done properly.

I've said this before but when I worked for Sotheby's I was allowed to bid on Halper material and was even given a form to fill out called an employee bid sheet.

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Posted By: leon

I agree with Barry. I am waiting for the day, as an addicted collector AND auctioneer, that we take in a consignment for our auction that I HAVE to have for my collection. Scott and I have a written rule against bidding in our auction so it will be a dark day for me .....

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Posted By: barrysloate

I'll bid, and then we can do a trade.

Now while I said that tongue in cheek, would that be considered ethical? It would all be done in good faith.

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Posted By: leon

That is a good question for debate. Lets don't get too far off track of Joe's plea to be nice to auction houses.... This question could almost be a good new thread? I don't know the answer but my initial thought is "No" I couldn't have you do it and still be "at arms length" from the auction...which is most likely the wrong term used but you know what I mean....

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Posted By: barrysloate

I admire your high ethical standards, but frankly I don't see what would be wrong and who would get hurt by it. Not suggesting we form a pact, just don't see what the problem is (although there may be one).

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Posted By: Cat

I really expect Auction Houses to have collectors or former collectors as employees. I want their staff to know something about the industry, and the logical way to hire people with industry knowledge is to hire people like some on this board. So it has never bothered me that employees bid in the auctions.

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Posted By: leon

Well Barry, in a perfect world there wouldn't be an issue of having you bid for me BUT I can see bidders (as the auctioneer) that other bidders (yourself) can't see. To me that is an unfair advantage. If everyone could see everyone elses bids then it would be ok.....I am far from perfect but do try to go overboard about being ethical in the hobby..hence the written rules in our auction.....I am not commenting on any other auction houses only my own....

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Posted By: barrysloate

Yes, but the fact that you can see things is irrelevant, because if you didn't share that information with me I would be on the same playing field as everyone else.

On the other hand, if you told me two whales were bidding against me then we've crossed an ethical line.

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Posted By: Denny Walsh

I was curious to see what ebay's take on "Shill Bidding" was. Not to say that I agree with any of ebay's views or rules, ebay - on paper anyway - run a real tight ship when it comes to who can't bid on items.

ebay's policy on Shill bidding is as follows:

Because family members, roommates and employees of sellers have a level of access to item information which is not available to the general Community, they are not permitted to bid on items offered by the seller–even if their sole intent is to purchase the item. Family members, roommates or employees may purchase items from a seller without violating this policy simply by using purchase options–such as Buy It Now–which do not involve bidding.

eBay strongly encourages sellers with employees to ensure that their employees are aware of this policy and the possible consequences of violation.

Violations of this policy may result in a range of actions, including:

Listing cancellation

Limits on account privileges

Account suspension

Forfeit of eBay fees on canceled listings

Loss of PowerSeller status

Referral to Law Enforcement

Spend a few minutes taking eBay's tutorial on shill bidding.

Their tutorial has me convinced that ebay believes everyone is Shill bidding ... So, I guess ebays view on auction houses that allow in house bidding could potentially be a criminal!?

Food for thought... But if I ran an auction house, being above reproach would be the goal.

Life's Grand,
Denny Walsh

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Posted By: barrysloate

Denny- one thing I find interesting is ebay doesn't want employees or relatives bidding because they would have some inside information regarding the bids, but when I sell on ebay I know absolutely nothing about who is about to bid or how high his ceiling may be. I couldn't tip off an employee (I'm a sole proprietorship, so no real employees) even if I wanted to.

And there shouldn't be any secret information about the lot; that should all be revealed in the description.

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Posted By: Denny Walsh

Barry,

For the most part, the employees that ebay is talking about are the employees of the ebay id running the auction.

Example: If your sellin a card, Your brother can't bid on it. Or his wife, or your landscaper, etc....

Might be a bit out of hand, imho.

Life's Grand,
Denny Walsh

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Posted By: barrysloate

I'm banning my landscaper!

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Posted By: Anthony S.

My landscaper is Don Loucious. I'm totally screwed.

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Posted By: davidcyleback

Don't worry, I think it's okay for your landscaper to bid in your auctions.
(Duly note that your son mowing your lawn doesn't count as your landscaper.)

For full disclosure, I live in a second floor condo with five potted plants,
and don't employ the services a landscaper. I do have a large green watering
can, but it's ethical (Doesn't water on the Saturday).

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Posted By: Denny Walsh

It'd a good thing I don't have apaper route anymore

David... I blew a snot bubble when I read your Rod Sterling Take.... 'My Stomach still hurts from laughing.'

Life's Grand,
Denny Walsh

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Guys, I'm not suggesting that the auction houses are in the wrong if they simply follow their stated rules about employees bidding on items. I'm talking about principles or reps of the auction houses running up a bid up to the known-to-them ceiilng bid. Or using other individuals' accounts to shill bid without the individuals previously giving authority or making the bids themselves. That's the sort of fraud I'm talking about. I'm sure Never Get Cheated and the auction house he refers to will jump on my proffered wager as soon as possible. Or not.

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Posted By: Matt

"I do have a large green watering can, but it's ethical (Doesn't water on the Saturday)."

I believe what you have is a religious watering can - not to be confused with an ethical one.

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

"With apologies to Rod Serling"

That statment by David Davis couldn't have better summed up my feelings as I was reading Mr. Orlando's post. It truly does belong in the twilight zone.

If I was making a short list of people who have no business telling others what they should or shouldn't do, or what is good for this hobby, Joe Orlando would be on it. How many times have well-intentioned people raised legitimate questions about PSA's actions? How many times has Joe Orlando refused to return serious phone inquiries or ever post responses on this board? For a person who runs what he describes as the leading 3rd party authenticator in the hobby, his actions have over time lead me to reasonably question whether PSA is motivated by anything other than its bottom line.

I'm sorry Mr. Orlando, but I just cannot take your post seriously.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Joe's post is comical. Very vague as usual. What event specifically caused his post? We can guess but I would venture to say that there are several, more than we care to imagine, events that could have caused his political statement. If we knew specifically what he was referring to, we could address it with facts.

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Posted By: Bruce Dorskind

We concur with Corey Shanus' comments

We wouldn't be surprised if Mr. Orlando wrote his memoirs.

He could call the book "Making The Grade"

Chapter One: How to raise your average

Chapter Two : Honest Hobbyists Really Grade On Me

Chapter Three: Is It Certifiable?

Chapter Four: Walking Down Memory Lane

Chapter Five; The Big Shill

Chapter Six: Plastics my boy, Plastics

Chapter Seven: You can fool some of the people some of the time

Chapter Eight Our special Heritage

Chapter Nine: Truth or Consequences



Anyone else have additional thoughts for other chapters. Hopefully, Mr. Orlando and friends
will avoid having to write Chapters 11 and 13


Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: barrysloate

I like Chapter 4

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Posted By: Richard Simon

Chapter Ten: The Evolving Dramatic Story of the Auction House Autograph COA
==

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: dan mckee

Bruce I LOVE Chapter 4! That was funny!!

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Posted By: boxingcardman

"Be Chill to Your Shill"

Rah Rah Sis Boom Bah

JO's missives have about as much street cred in the Hobby as Bush's pronouncements about progress in Iraq.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: dan mckee

If Joe would take some of this writing energy and write the victom of the Nodgrass card a refund, I think he would be better served.

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Posted By: Steve

How many times has Joe Orlando refused to return serious phone inquiries or ever post responses on this board?




Corey would you post here if you were him? Like he would be treated fairly here?

If he posted here it would be like vultures on a carcass.


Steve

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Posted By: Rich Klein

But Leon has had several calls into Joe and he has posted that he never recieved a response.

I'm sure Leon would love to hear from Joe when these issues come up.

Regards
Rich

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Posted By: leon

I have previously left Joe O 2 v-mails with no return call from him. I guess I don't blame him but it's not like I am going to be unprofessional or bite his head off. I do agree that if he posted on this board he would take some flak....however, with that being said there are also ways to post on this board and not get slammed too badly. It's really pretty easy. You post once, state your opinion and say it will be your only post. Any other questions can be emailed or telephoned.....It works well....