Big problems in the hobby

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

I've been saying for some time that slab and/or flip doctoring will be the future mega-problem of our hobby and have been trying to learn everything possible about detection and protection. We are starting to see it already and it will only get worse. Just knowing the basics of what to look for in card alterations will not cut it anymore if you are a slab collector.

I know of two grading companies who are being proactive and starting to prepare for this new wave of fraud. Both are taking this very seriously and should be applauded. I talked to Joe a couple months ago and volunteered to take a day or two off work to help train their senior graders, at no cost. Seems PSA can care less and it feel SGC is not far behind.

Apparently China has already forged the coin hobby flips, holograms, slabs and in some instances the coins themselves.

Hope this is wrong but the sky may be falling soon.

What are your thoughts?


Kevin Saucier



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www.AlteredCards.com - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples

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Posted By: Eric B

Quite simply, it seems that forging a flip with 2 colors, red and white, is much easier than a whole card.

Not to mention the fact that some company is producing the slabs. How hard would it be to produce a few more for a third party?

You know what...forging slabs and flips may be LESS of a problem than forging cards. It should be much easier to fake a flip or a slab than a card. This may be less of a problem than imagined. It could put the slabbers out of business, but it doesn't make the cards easier to reproduce.

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Posted By: cmoking

"Apparently China has already forged the coin hobby flips, holograms, slabs and in some instances the coins themselves. "

I did not know this. Kevin, do you have a link to a story or anything else online?

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

This is coming from an "autograph guy" as opposed to a "card guy", but I wholeheartedly agree with the Net54 poster (is it Dan McKee?) who says, "Buy the card, not the slab". In any hobby (and, I have found, in any situation life may deal you), self-education is your best defense mechanism. Read voraciously on matters that interest you most. Seek out opinions of trusted people. Combine these two points and, eventually, your confidence will begin to build up. There is a line in Proverbs which says "...lean not on your own understanding". I wish it was followed by "it will only get you so far"! Learn as much as you can, and if you can't find the answer you're seeking, confer with those in whom you trust. After all, the good folks at Allen and Ginter were not thinking of loupes, x-acto knives and distilled water when they produced their beautiful cards all those years ago. Places such as this give everybody a chance to discuss whatever is on their mind, and end up helping many other not-so-vocal readers in the process!

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Posted By: Bilko G

Kevin, I was wondering if you know of or have seen any cases of tampering with BVG/BGS Slabs? I know there has been tampering of the BGS RCR's, but have not heard of any slab tampering of encapsulated BVG cards. Also, can you mention the two grading compaines that you are working with? Kinda of interested to hear who they are. Thanks.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Know who you are buying from, which has always been a good rule of thumb.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

"Seems PSA can care less and it feel SGC is not far behind."

Although I can totally understand why both companies would hesitate to disclose their fraud protection policies with a non-employee who has not signed any sort of confidentiality agreement, they clearly have disclosed them to you, so perhaps you can share some details with us here. Without giving out any confidential information, of course.

Thanks,

-Al

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

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Posted By: John

“I've been saying for some time that slab and/or flip doctoring will be the future mega-problem of our hobby and have been trying to learn everything possible about detection and protection. We are starting to see it already and it will only get worse.”

Ok I’ll bite why the how to section on your website if we all should be careful? Not that using Photoshop is some amazing science you alone understand..but I don’t get it?

Back in the day you said you would never share much of your knowledge because it would only be harmful in the wrong hands, yet month ago you hinted via the other board you would be blowing the lid off some hobby secret.

http://www.alteredcards.com/flip.htm

http://www.alteredcards.com/flip2.htm

Then you posted the above links, funny thing was nobody even commented on it.

I’m still very confused by all of this Kevin, it seems like the stuff you post on your webpage is in turn driven by propaganda, most of which comes from you in very obscure snippets of hearsay. Are the experiments driven by you to create a need for services of your own to make money, or is it out of pure education purposes for the collectors. I think that’s a fair question so don’t get all bent out of shape.

I hate to say this but as of late you’re coming off more like a desperate self promoting business man with a semi thought out business venture which you really want to pay off and you use the boards as tool for free publicity.

Perhaps you should just hang out a shingle hit the pavement and let the market decide if their ready to pay for and value your opinion vs. this constant hinting of gloom and doom stuff.

Good luck either way.

Regards,

John

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Posted By: John

“I know of two grading companies who are being proactive and starting to prepare for this new wave of fraud. Both are taking this very seriously and should be applauded. I talked to Joe a couple months ago and volunteered to take a day or two off work to help train their senior graders, at no cost. Seems PSA can care less and it feel SGC is not far behind.”

One more thing Kevin is this to mean that you contacted these companies (SGC, PSA) and they told you no thanks on your services and inputs, if so why do you think that is?

Is it because they don’t care, or they just don’t value your opinions? And is this post so you can drum up support in order to go back to these very companies with ammo to support your opinions and expertise?

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Posted By: 1880nonsports

a fair and thought provoking question that I would like to add a little to.....
As an ex-teacher I believe that education must be predicated on selfless motives. Certainly kevin is not the problem with the hobby. I appreciate the specific information he provides as it relates to alterations. I have no idea what Kevin's motives are - but sometimes I too feel unfulfilled with allusions or suggestions relative to questions that are never answered. It's just a bit discomforting and distracting with the secret visits here - the secret submission there - the meetings with graders and respective companies that don't appreciate him or they love him - all when one is trying to absorb what he has to say about CARD ALTERATION detection. That is the particular problem "I" have with Kevin's posts. Often there is excellent and even "eye-opening" information in his posts. I support and I appreciate anything that helps me to make good decisions about my cards. Trickery and alterations of all kinds exist in any collectible genre - someone is always looking for a way to seperate you from your money. No denying that a small portion of graded cards & an even smaller number of holders have been compromised. My personal enjoyment of the hobby is lessened a bit when I have to grapple with the idea a card I own or am going to buy might have been altered. Maybe I'll sell such a card without knowing it's been altered and have to answer questions about my intent. I want to know what to look for. It may be a leap of faith but I believe most things ARE what they seem. I don't like looking for ghosts all the time. I hope you continue to share information - and that your good information (whatever the motivation) isn't obfuscated by the reader's supposition about your motivation or the possiblity of your having another agenda. Getting back to my initial point - a person whose motivations are clearly known and expressed - allows the focus to be on the idea and not the person........ Just my nickle.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

I've never made a penny or asked for one...ever! The services that were previously just a thought are no longer considered and haven't been for some time.

I didn't contact these grading companies, some called me (even PSA) and I was more than happy to assist. Everything was offered at no cost. Some asked for and received advice and various products tested. Recommendations were made for security improvements. The areas of improvements are of course confidential. It will be great to see some of them implemented and collectors get added protection.

The post above is doing nothing more than making an attempt to explain what we can expect in the near future. The problem with many of the collectors here (especially you John) is that they think the worst of any shared information on the topic of alterations. It's no wonder why so many lurkers don't post and is a reason why I post less often. It’s a common practice for you to push around the messenger and anything less than a public flogging from you (and a few others) would be a great disappointment.

Btw…I’m glad you posted those pages. I decided to write them when I got fed up with your endless attacks, questioning my integrity and asking for less cryptic information. Well, there is nothing cryptic on them, it’s a step by step written just for you and because of you!

Again, excuse me for trying to help. Perhaps it would be better if I kept quiet and watched as expert collectors continued to buy so-called ghost image cards, bleached, made errors and rebuilt corners...and now doctored flips and slabs.

The info there is only to help collectors become more educated before making a questionable purchase. It shows examples of what to look for or what can be done. Only one page has photoshop work, the rest are real alterations.

Sad to see that a general alert was trying to be conveyed and was met with questions of ulterior motives.






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www.AlteredCards.com - in-depth education on advanced card doctoring techniques & detection with detailed examples

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Posted By: John

“Btw…I’m glad you posted those pages. I decided to write them when I got fed up with your endless attacks, questioning my integrity and asking for less cryptic information. Well, there is nothing cryptic on them, it’s a step by step written just for you and because of you!”

Those pages were written just for me? Funny I don’t remember asking how to doctor a flip ever in my life?

“The problem with many of the collectors here (especially you John) is that they think the worst of any shared information on the topic of alterations. It's no wonder why so many lurkers don't post and is a reason why I post less often. It’s a common practice for you to push around the messenger and anything less than a public flogging from you (and a few others) would be a great disappointment.”

No the problem Kevin is any questions directed towards you in any general manner of questioning what your whole point is, is met with resentence and an overall poor pitiful me routine. Funny how a person who can make such outlandish claims and obscure hearsay references gets so offend by any questions directed towards himself or considers those simple questions a public flogging.

Grow up Kevin, if you’re going to be the voice of progress on this soapbox of alteration you have built for yourself, and if you going to continue to point fingers at other established companies and individuals and there faults according to you. Then you had better expect at sometime folks may ask about your credentials in this matter, and what your motives are.

If you can’t handle this without getting your feelings hurt then take your ball and go home, you always say you are but you always come back with more doom and gloom and vary little substance.

“I talked to Joe a couple months ago and volunteered to take a day or two off work to help train their senior graders, at no cost. Seems PSA can care less and it feel SGC is not far behind.”

Hmm I don’t see PSA or SGC on here blasting you Kevin for your shortcomings but that didn’t stop you for insinuating that these companies are behind the security curve once again according to you….funny who are you again?

P.S. Aren't you the same guy who posted a thread on the other board asking that post to stay over there (good thing for you IMO), that you had a theory about a the PSA 7 Harris Plank being changed over to an SGC holder. Funny thing is the Harris Plank was a 150 series card that was part of the Copeland collection at one point and the SGC card was a 350 series card. I found it odd that such an expert on cards and alterations would make such an amateur mistake, seeing as the 350 series cards for the most part are so different looking from their 150 series counterparts; also the obvious two different looking blues & the SGC Cert saying 1910. You did admit you made a big mistake which is ok, but not so great when you claim to be an expert on alterations, and offering services to grading companies.

But hey it didn’t stop you from jumping to the conclusion and or firing up any more rumors/hearsay. In fact I seem to remember you doing the same to a fellow collector’s card on here saying it was fake with little or no proof. I'm sure that collector felt a little flogged himself.

I’ll let the collector chime in for himself with his thoughts.

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Posted By: george "bulldog" adams

hey charlie is that the guy from footloose. bulldog

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Posted By: Dan Kravitz

Can't we all just get along "Rodney King"

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Wonka, with your criticism you may have unwittingly unleased an army of razor-wearing cocks on your ass. I assure you that is not a pretty picture.

As for Kevin's comments, there does seem to be a recent spate of forged flips, etc. which is, in fact, very disconcerting. Would it kill PSA to add something to its holders/flips to make them harder to duplicate?

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Posted By: Joann

I think Kevin could very well be right in that flip creation and manipulation could be a much bigger problem that card alteration. There are a lot of possiblities:

1) For a "smash & grab" kind of card scammer, someone could use altered flips and blurred or no scans to sell a small number of big ticket items on ebay and then disappear. If buyers couldn't see the problem in a scan and relied on the grade, a seller could pull of a few relatively large scams before people caught on.

2) It could be even more profitable and go on longer if someone used it for smaller scams but many of them. Suppose you have a few dozen minor HOF'ers that were 4's and used a fake flip to put them in 5 holders? Many buyers would probably write it off as simply coming out on the wrong end of a grading outcome. And "no returns on graded cards" is almost standard. This could go on until the hobby started to realize that so-and-so's cards are always overgraded.

3) Finally, if it were used very sparingly, rarely, but in conjunction with expert card alterations, it could make big money over a few instances and possibly never be uncovered. If the alteration were expert and no owner ever took the card out of the flip, it is possible that the alteration would never be detected.

So yes, I agree it could be a big problem. Flip creation could be done much more easily, and by more people, than card alteration. Ironically, the best 'police' for these things might be the registries, as people tried to enter non-existant cert numbers.

On the other hand, the availability of high-quality images would help buyers. Scanner technology is much better. Image posting is easily available to almost everyone, and in particular on sales sites like ebay. So this does put the buyer in a much better position to buy the card and not the holder via internet.

And a note to Kevin. The history of the board has been to take a skeptical tone with what might be promotion of commercial enterprises on the board. There have been several other instances of posters - even long time members - getting called out for posting on the board about a commercial site or service, or with something commercial lurking in the background of the posts.

Before now I think it was fairly well known that you were considering dabbling in this area as a business. In that light, I believe that John has been asking some very fair questions. If it had ever gotten to the point that you had launched your venture in seriousness, it's pretty likely that the entire board would have been asking very similar questions.

I didn't realize until your post above that you are no longer thinking of doing this for profit. That does make a difference, although I think that there will always be some of the questioning as long as you are holding yourself out as being an expert in commenting on the hobby. At that point it becomes human nature.

And as an aside, I don't think John made the comment about "cryptic nonsense" that got you mad enough to be less cryptic and post some how-to info on your site. I think that was "bulldog", in his infamous post blasting the other board.

Joann

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Posted By: Steve

This is of course a potentially seminal issue.

Can someone please post any ebay or other links of specific occurences.

Is it something where a VG card in a 6, 7 or 8 holder?

Is it something where it is a clearly fake card in a holder?

Is there a pattern as to where these are coming from?

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

I agree that slab and/or flip doctoring is an issue the hobby should be concerned about. Its potential ease of application coupled with a potentially stratospheric economic return suggests to me that con artists, if not employing it already, are at least seriously contemplating its use. I would think though that any grading company acting rationally, if not already, then certainly once the first documented case of an altered holder and/or flip appears, will strive to take steps to guard against it. After all, if the market begins to lose confidence in the integrity of a grading company's holder/flip, that company's cards will start to sell at a big discount and people will stop giving them new submissions.

EDITED for spelling

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Posted By: Martin Neal

I am aware of a fake Babe Ruth Candy card inserted into a Psa slab. The slab had been tampered with and the original (I am assuming) was removed and the fake was inserted in its place. I do not know where the owner purchased this card, but I did suggest he return it.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Thank you Kevin for your continuous efforts to help the hobby. As you have learned there are a few that no matter what you say or do will attack you....hang in there, most of us not only appreciate it but are grateful that you post here occasionally.

Jim

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Posted By: Jay

Jeff--"an army of razor-wearing cocks on your ass" ? Was that from a poster for S&M Night at the Mine Shaft? LOL

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

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Posted By: Larry P.

Someone asked about the fake Chinese coin slabs.

Here is a link. This topic was also featured in the January 28, 2008 issue of Coin World. The Chinese apparently have gotten quite good at making fake slabs and fake coins also. Can fake card slabs be next?

http://coins.about.com/od/worldcoins/ig/Chinese-Counterfeiting-Ring/

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Posted By: barrysloate

As a dealer I am of course concerned with my exposure and liability, since I truly doubt I would be able to spot a counterfeit flip. In fact, a bad card could trade hands numerous times without anyone realizing it was bad.

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Posted By: TFerg

The Chinese have copied/cloned just about everything that has come along. Slabs would be an easy stroll through the park and very inexpensive if done in any decent quantity. If the grading companies are already buying their slabs from a Chinese molder then it's a no-brainer. It's not just the Chinese you need to worry about, if the slabs are molded in the US(which I would think they are, but don't know) it only takes a shady 3rd shift supervisor to send some out the back door. Opening exsisting slabs is small time, if they can get their paws on brand-new slab halves.

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Posted By: John

Honestly when it comes to Asia there’s not much that can be done folks.

I make my living manufacturing plastics in Asia it would be a matter of weeks and I could have copies of or “Sculpts” of any third party’s holders and slips in my hands. Then it’s just a matter of MOQ’s and you’re off to the races, then there is the whole import thing the item would have to be given a classification by customs, this is where it could get tricky getting them in to the US but not all that hard, but this only effects you if what you're sending in is more than say what could be done via Fedex etc.

The only thing stopping someone is time, connections and money. Where there’s a will there’s a way, as for companies having more secure slips (i.e. Holograms, Ink blends etc, UV watermarks) it would only help for a short time. Look at our own currency it has been changed how many times over the past few years due to counterfeit on the world market? Say for example if PSA created a new cert, as soon as someone wanted to knock it off any original cards that had that style cert would be suspect. What do you suggest we do, send our cards in each year to have the security upgraded, it’s not like we can download patches for our cards.

So I’ll ask one more time Kevin what is your solution to the problem (short of sending you our cards for your opinion) since you seem to think SGC & PSA don’t care to address this major issue? What would you do t combat the above? What measures could these companies employ that would make all of us collectors safer?

Since you’re not in this for profit anymore this would be a good place to get your message across to the heads of these companies, so what’s the plan?
Now go ahead and once again ignore my questions I’ll wait in the wings for the Wonka’s attacking you comments to roll in.

P.S. Lichtman an army of razor wearing cocks…LMAO!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Charlie, who is that guy? Is it a picture of a guy who makes a living popping cards out of holders, altering them, and resubmitting before selling them on ebay?

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Posted By: Cobby33

What happens when the card has been altered?

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Quoting Lichtman: "Charlie, who is that guy?"

He is that elusive Vietnamese tuna who you Yanks were trying to destroy in 'Nam.

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Posted By: Bob Pomilla

Jodi, your mind works in odd ways............I like that in a person!

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Posted By: Josh

Thank you for all that you have done. It is appreciated by more people than you think. It is a shame that some of the companies don't want to hear your research. Keep up the good work!

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Posted By: JimB

"Charlie, who is that guy?"

It is the picture Kevin posted of himself in the photo thread Leon started about a week ago.
JimB

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Ok, now I'm lost. Why did Charlie post a picture of Kevin?

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Jeff,

Can I get that $1 now r do I have to wait until the fall?

I posted that picture of Kevin because I think he was alittle over the top in stating that the "sky is falling". On the other hand, I have alot of respect for Kevin's abilities and think one of the grading services is crazy for not hiring him or at least paying him a consulting fee.

Kevin,

Keep up the good work.

CB

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Yeah, Charlie, you've really showed me that the stock market is out of the woods. I think you may have given up your career on Wall Street too soon.

As for Kevin, I guess you were suggesting that he is part of the problem in the hobby -- you mean, as opposed to people that pop cards out of holders, alter them and then reslab and resell? I'd have to disagree with you on that one.

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Posted By: B.C.Daniels

Jeff +227
Charlie -167
Kevin -115
Kevin's tattoo -180
Kevin's tat if slabbed -205

BcD

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Brian,

Bring some gloves to the net54 dinner this year in Chicago and lets resolve some of these issues once and for all. I think I might have the advantage on Lichtman in the ring vs. who can think and type quickest.

CB

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Posted By: SC

If someone wasn't greedy, all you'd need to do is aquire (create or get them backdoor from the current supplier) unused plastic holders. Then, buy decent looking examples of cards that are at the grade you want and grade below, crack them out (without damaging the flip) and switch them out. Submit the now raw card and you'll end up with 2 PSA 8s out of a PSA 7 and PSA 8. Buy another PSA 7 and repeat. Buying a sonic welding machine is nothing - I think Lelands had one in a past auction?

I'm pretty sure this is what WIWAG did, or similar. Without recreating flips, you have no worries about duplicate/invalid numbers. No worries about the flips not looking right. As long as you're picking nice cards, you're not even going to have a huge problem with the cards themselves, as they're real and not terribly overgraded.

Think about it - there have been piles of books written on artwork forgeries, with top experts disagreeing on the veracity of paintings worth millions. What defense is there for things as simple as cards and coins?

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Posted By: JK

"Btw…I’m glad you posted those pages. I decided to write them when I got fed up with your endless attacks, questioning my integrity and asking for less cryptic information. Well, there is nothing cryptic on them, it’s a step by step written just for you and because of you!

Again, excuse me for trying to help. . ."


Sorry, I think those links are irresponsible. Though I guess they are helpful to those trying to create fake slips. On second thought, great work.

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Posted By: Bob

As mostly an autograph myself, I find this topic interesting. I have purchased cards and a have a pretty significant 1930's-1950's collection, all raw and all weathered and previously enjoyed.

In the autograph business, there are two realistic states of thinking...worth something or worth nothing, but with cards, it appears to me there is simply prices differences depending on a number. So of course those who collect low grade stuff (even in slabbed form) really aren't affected by Chinese copy cats and I will feel just fine purchasing low grade cards that I actually love owning.

I actually commend the hell out of someone doing something about the hobby in assisting to clean it up. If only we had a figure head in the autograph business which, perhaps like the fear of knowing the truth, perhaps nobody wants to know their PSA9 card has been worked on and will simply continue to go in denial. Just like the autograph business where 8 out of every 10 Babe Ruth autograph is phony, but all 10 of those are assumed good by the owners.

Robert

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Posted By: Darren

When I have to get a 4th party to validate a 3rd party's opinion after I've rendered my opinion and heard that of the sellers then I will quit collecting.....

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Posted By: leon

So if the 4th party authentication won't fly then I guess my 5th party authentication service won't have a chance, huh?