Album of Trimmed T206s?

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Posted By: Matt

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=220197592342

Story seems plausible (albeit an odd choice of CSA) but what old-timer would trim T206s and then paste them into an album?

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Posted By: Max Weder

Matt

I'm not sure where it says any were trimmed.

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Posted By: Matt

it doesn't say that anywhere other then the images of the cards .

A board member pointed out the Joss as a blatant example.

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Posted By: Dave S

For the most part they appear legit. The winning bidder
knows his 206's and don't think he'd get duped for $1300 if not..

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Posted By: Matt

Dave - they are legit T206s - but they also bear strong signs of being trimmed (outside of being CSA graded). That messed up the sellers whole story for me since why would there be an old original album from long ago with pasted in T206s that are trimmed?

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Posted By: Eric B

because old time collectors and/or scrapbookers trimmed cards so they would fit or because they just didn't like the borders.

Just like you would do with a 5x7 photo of your kids if it didn't fit in the frame or if you just wanted to get rid of the white part.

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Posted By: Matt

Eric - check the images; that doesn't seem like the kind of trimming that occurred.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Lionel Carter had trimmed cards in his collection. Old timers did it...I don't think Carter did it, but someone he bought/traded cards with did.

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Posted By: Anthony S.

There was a large group of Drum backed T206's that sold at auction last year. I believe it was a lot 30. About 3-5 of them ended up on Ebay in SGC AUTHENTIC holders around November or December. Each card's top border was completely trimmed off. One was an Abstein, I remember, because I almost pulled the trigger on the Buy it Now. Someone on here mentioned that the cards had previously belonged to a well known old time collector, and that that collector had mentioned the reason why he trimmed the cards was so that they would fit in better in the album sheets he displayed them in. I gotta admit I miss that hobby ethos, even if I did start collecting right as it was changing.

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Posted By: Matt

guys - these cards clearly weren't trimmed to fit into the album...

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Posted By: scott brockelman

end of story.

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Posted By: Matt

scott - this is the second time in 2 days you have stated with certainty that cards that show significant signs of trimming are definitely not trimmed. How can you be so certain?

Let's take the Joss from this album - the right edge is uneven and the bottom is curled both indicating a trim job - how you can you say it is not trimmed with certainty?

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Posted By: Joann

Not trimmed. How can I be so certain? Because Scott Brockelman says so. He knows more about cards than I could ever know, even if he stopped learning now and I continued for the rest of my days. I'd never even come close.

I think some of the corners may not be flat to the page, and the resulting shadows make it look like a curved edge. Same with some edges that are non-square to the scan. I occasionally have to rescan a card if it is off square a few degrees - somehow the scanning process creates a slight ragged look.

I don't think they look trimmed - I think they look like scanning and mounting artifacts.

Plus, Scott seems very sure that they are not!

J

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Posted By: Matt

"Not trimmed. How can I be so certain? Because Scott Brockelman says so."

That doesn't really help anyone understand why he can say for certain they are not trimmed. I'd love it if he could share why he can say that with certainty to educate us all. I gave the example of the Joss and my thoughts on why it looks trimmed so that hopefully he would respond with why he can say it is not.

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Posted By: Paul S

I'm not so sure they are trimmed either. There certainly is a lot of border on many of those cards. I'm pretty sure they were shot with a digital camera, as opposed to scanned. In the instance of the Joss, the close proximity of the camera can really distort edges and corners (following Joann's reasoning re scan, and shadows, etc.) If you look at the top border of the Joss it seems like someone (seller?) tried to pull the card off the page, but decided against it.
BTW -has anyone noticed how clean most of those cards are? Also, the seller mentioned he's keeping one (not shown or named) for himself. Would love to know who it is (the card, not the seller)?

*edited for spelling and clarity.

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Posted By: Dave S

We are all too quick to judge a miscut/angle-cut card as being trimmed. Seller states they measure. Keep in mind the cutting process 100 years ago was primitive by today's standards. Paper maybe improperly alligned, maybe shifted, etc. Would venture to say maybe thats what Scott is alluding to??

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Posted By: David R

I do not believe that anyone can tell with certainty whether those cards are trimmed just from the pictures posted on that eBay listing.

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Posted By: Matt

I'll agree to that; I'm waiting to know how someone can tell with certainty that they are not...

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Matt,
With all due respect I have noticed that you always seem to start alot of threads about trimmed cards ,fake cards,bad ebay sellers etc. While most are warranted in this instance I think you should have started off the thread the way I did it. Album Of T206s?. You were the one who seemed to think and added the word TRIMMED that all or some of the cards are trimmed. I dont see it myself but what do I know. The seller never says anything about the cards being trimmed in the whole description. And also offers you your money back if not satisfied. Yes 5 of the cards were sent to CSA for grading and yes that wouldnt have been my choice, but if they are that bad in not stating that they were trimmed then I dont think you should start right off the bat saying they are.Thats why theres SGC,PSA,and others to tell us we are right or wrong when it comes to situations just like this! LOL

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Posted By: Matt

Al - there is a question mark there. I'm not saying they are trimmed; I suggested they seemed trimmed and am honestly wanting to know how someone can say they certainly are not.

quoting from myself above: "they also bear strong signs of being trimmed"

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Hi Matt,
Yes I saw the ? but it was the word TRIMMED that bothered me a little. Thats why I have a pet peeve about posts sometimes because you state or it states up above the The "Joss is a blatant example" No where does it say in this post where someone said that. So someone must have emailed you privately. That person should come on and post like everyone else so we can see the name and then ask them the same questions you are asking "why do you think that"? Put your name up there so we can see who the board member is.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

As many have stated above, the cards are shot with a camera and present a bowed effect to the borders, all which appear ample. I would be willing to bet the buyer will be able to correctly and safely remove them and get them holdered by SGC or PSA.

I have examined quite a few cards over the years and you simply have to learn what to look for, and also figure the provenance as well. As someone else stated, many are quick to jump on cards as being trimmed without learning what they are looking at. The best way to learn them is to examine as many as you can in person and soon the differences can be seen on the scans.

This also includes slabs, there are probably as many trimmed high end T206's in slabs out there as there are raw ones on ebay.

Scott

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Posted By: barrysloate

The cards look okay to me and were probably glued into the album a long time ago, although I admit the top border of the Purtell looks a little funky. But there is no logical reason for someone to trim the top border and then glue it into an album. Makes no sense.

And while I respect Scott B.'s opinion about vintage baseball cards as much as anyone's, Matt is correct that it does not help explain why the cards may or may not be original. In the context of this album having been assembled a long time ago, there would be no incentive for anyone to have trimmed these cards. Most have full original borders, a few have slightly irregular cuts.

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Posted By: Matt

Al - not sure how to question whether the card is trimmed without using the word trimmed. Sorry if that bothers you. I also would have liked it for the board member who pointed to the Joss to come on and back me up, but he has chosen to remain in the wings; what can I do.

Scott - thanks for explaining. Hopefully by more information and discussion on the board about cards potentially being trimmed we can all come to be better aware of the signs of trimmed cards.

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Scott,
I agree. After examining 100s-1000s of cards over time you tend to start to understand the difference between trimmed,hand cut etc. Even the best get fooled!!! No doubt about it. Gretzky Wagner? I guess we will leave that one for another time!!! LOL

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Posted By: Joann

Matt,

With all similar due respect as voiced by Al, I think maybe sometimes your posts are a bit aggressive and agree that you seem to start many (or include in existing threads) comments about alterations, trimming or whatever. Maybe a hair-trigger effect is the best way to put it.

I know you use the right words and even the right punctuation (such as the question marks in the OP here). But somehow there is a tone that can be quite final and definitive. I think that questions can often come off as accusative or maybe demanding depending on tone. Did you take that? Is that my coat? Are you going to answer? Is that trimmed?

It seems to come up a lot, and even in a recent pick up thread you posted "Is that card trimmed?" It's not even just about whether or not the dang card was trimmed. It's about someone proudly posting a new pickup not wanting to have such a blunt and open challenge to it. Others that have been around a long time and really know sometimes chime in, but I think this is by private email. Or if it is on the board is is more broad and by way of suggestion - less blunt.

I don't know how to articulate it better and I'm sorry for that. But I think I see what Al is saying, and have to say I agree. And again this seems like possibly another case where an honest seller and knowledgeable buyer are hauled onto this board for public dissection - it's not only unseemly to have it happen so much, but it's too often in error.

Sorry - these just don't have the tone of questions made in the spirit of genuine inquiry and desire to learn, even if that's how they are meant.

J

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Posted By: Matt

thanks for your input. Ironically, you suggesting I should have made my comments via private email is probably how you should have made yours.

I will say further, that I agree, I often post about questionable material. I do it only to learn. I don't know what other possible motivation you think I could have. I used to do it straight out, but months ago you suggested that it was best discussed privately with board members first, which is what I have been doing since, including in this case; I discussed it with board members privately before posting here. I don't think I am being irresponsible and apologize if my tone doesn't carry properly in a message board post.

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Posted By: fkw

I dont think the Joss or any others are trimmed. Its the digital photo that warped the edges IMO.

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Posted By: Joann

Know what Matt? Maybe a private email would have been better. I was thinking that Al had said something and I really didn't want to leave him hanging out there since I thought I understood what he was getting at.

But point taken.

J

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Posted By: Al Simeone

Matt,
While I do understand your zest about these topics, I think Joann has really said it rather well. Maybe just tone down a little when it comes to talking about these auctions that you always point out until you do a litte more investigation first. She is right you do come off very blunt with alot of your comments. Sometimes deserved sometimes not. People tend to take you the wrong way because of it. You do alot of good on the board but just take it easy once in awhile....

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Posted By: Matt

NM

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Two things to consider. First, CSA, to my knowledge, has not taken submissions from the public for many many years unless you were a personal friend of the owner. Secondly, I have bought cards from this seller (T206's in fact) that were art projects gone bad. In his defense I do not recall if he stated in the auction that they were altered but I do know that the cards had been through advanced restoration processes using chemicals of some kind. Those two bits of first hand knowledge told me to stay away.

Not sure anyone can determine with absolute certainty by these images provided whether or not the cards are trimmed/altered. No offense to Scott who I know has many years of hobby expertise.

Greg