Known autographed T206's and show and tell...

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Posted By: Sean

What are the known autographed T206's?

I purchased an autographed Goudey and was thinking of adding a T206 to my collection.

Also a little show and tell would be nice. (T206, Goudeys and other pre-war cards).

Sean bh

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

I'm sure there are a lot of them but I will add 6 to the list between two I know of and 4 I own:

Know of:
Cobb
Cicotte

Own:
Davey Jones
Fred Snodgrass
Rube Marquard
Larry Doyle

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Posted By: T206Collector

25 different autographed T206 cards, each encapsulated and authenticated by SGC/JSA.

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Posted By: Joe D.

just 25 Paul? You've got 500+ to go.




(they must look very cool when you put all those auto- cards together)

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Actually - this thread brings something to light I want to point out to potential bidders and Leon, maybe this is something for your fraud guy...

http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-1911-T206-WILLIAM-POWELL-SIGNED-CARD-PIEDMONT_W0QQitemZ130158986995QQihZ003QQcategoryZ7 3396QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

This eBay auction is for a William Powell signed T-206. Problem is, this is Jack Powell on the card. So, william signed the wrong card. The seller's description mentions nothing of the sort and even states: "1909-1911 T206 William Powell". Bidders beware as this card, signed by the WRONG player, is not worth that much.

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Posted By: T206Collector

....on an article for Old Cardboard or SGC Collector, which would print all of them in full color for the world to see. That is the only reason I have not posted them here or listed all of the names I've gotten. Also, I'm in negotiations to acquire a couple more and want to sort of round out the collection before I send the article to a publisher.

In short, there was a find in April and a number of them continue to trickle onto ebay. I would hate to print the article and then a bunch more of heretofore unknown examples show up in the public.

I started collecting these back in April 2004 and only aqcuired 3 new ones between then and April 2007 -- about 1 per year. Since April I've gotten 18 more. When my acquisition rate slows down again for a few months -- i.e., when the supply runs dry -- I'll send the article and images out to the printer.

Until then, please stay away from them because it is all I collect anymore!



Paul

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Posted By: T206Collector

...yes, they look amazing together. Franky, there is just no comparison against unsigned T206 cards. When I show off my collection now, the unsigned ones are missing an incomparable personal touch.

Interestingly, my favorite autographed pre-war card is a T201 card that I have signed by both players featured on the card -- Doyle and Meyers. It is a real beauty that I should be getting back from SGC/JSA next week.

Finally, if you've got any to sell, please let me know.

Paul

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Posted By: JimB

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Posted By: Sean

Does PSA only authenticate? I have noticed that PSA cards are graded authentic and SGC usually had a numerical grade with the authentication.

Sean bh

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Posted By: T206Collector

...also give you a number if you ask for it. But I'm not sure.

SGC will ask whether you want the label to say "Authentic" or give a grade for the card, in either case along with the James Spence cert. number and JSA stamp on the reverse.

I like to have my cards graded as well as certified. I know other collectors who differ on that.

Edited to add: I prefer to have SGC/JSA because then you know the name of the authenticator. This will be very important for the future well-being of a collection. With a generic PSA/DNA, you never know exactly who authenticated your card. What you are buying is the expert opinion and, in my opinion, it would be irresponsible to purchase that without knowing the name of that expert.

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Posted By: JimB

PSA did ask if I wanted a numerical grade as well and I said, "No.". I was only interested in verfiying that the autograph was authentic. If the card were higher grade, I may have done it differently. I did this one at the National a few years ago when they were doing autographs onsite.
JimB

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Posted By: Sean

Does anyone know what Marquard used for his signatures? Most of them seem to be the same type of writing instrument.

Sean bh

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Posted By: T206Collector

....lots of variations in Marquard's signing instrument.

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Posted By: Vincent

I also have a Davy Jones signed T206, along with
Owen Bush, Sam Crawford, and Charles Boss Schmidt (portrait).
I consider the signed Schmidt card one of my once-in-a-lifetime finds.

Over the years, I've lost out on signed Moriarty and Stanage T206 cards, so I know they are out there.


Thanks.

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Posted By: Glen Turner

I own a signed Roger Bresnahan card.
I have posted it before on this site.

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Posted By: Bill Stone

I think Rube Marqurd was the last living
major league player from the T206 set having
died in 1980. I think Davy Jones died in 1972
and both Fred Snodgrass and Larry Doyle died in 1974.
Do you think most of these autographs were obtained
late in their lives? Any record of them appearing as
guests at early card shows or could they have been signed
at Old Timers games?

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Posted By: T206Collector

...of mailed/returned signings beginning in the late 1960's and going into the 1970's when the bulk of auto'ed T206 cards were signed.

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Posted By: double-p-enterprises

An example of what I've acquired recently including several T206. All have been authenticated by PSA in Cleveland. I know they would bring significant dollars at Mastro. May trade for tough/graded Cobb's I desire (clean D304 / T227).

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Posted By: Ray Piskadlo

I currently have 6... Doyle, Marquard, Jones, Parent, McBride, and Livingstone.

Paul,
I'll be sending you an email this weekend.

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Posted By: DJ

There is nothing fraudelent about a T206 signed by someone else, unless the card was a fake or the signature was a fake. Believe it or not, it happens and I have even carried signed items that were signed by the people that weren't pictured on the item.

Has anyone seen any nice fountain pen signatures, during their prime signed by the T206 players? You see shaky pen signatures, but are there many signed not in the turn of the century, but maybe the 1940's or 1950's?

DJ

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Posted By: sean

I know of the following that also exist:

t206:
Frank chance
eddie cicotte
boss schmidt

t205:
Roger Bresnahan

t207:
Hoff
Carey

I have been colleting signed pre war cards for 20 years and seen very few pre ww1's

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Posted By: Sean BH

With the Elmer Flick that ending last night, what kind of price would it have brought if it was graded? I'm guessing by the signature that he either had 10 cups of coffee or was 93 years old.

http://tinyurl.com/2dongj

I picked up a few over the weekend and I'm thinking of getting them graded.

Sean bh

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

There is nothing fraudulent about a T-206 being signed by the wrong person - that I agree with 100%. However, I do believe it is misleading and fraudlent to call a T-206 of Jack Powell a "1909-1911 T206 William Powell" when the card is not a T206 William Powell - it is a Jack Powell signed by William Powell. To quote the auction description verbatim, it says:

"1909-1911 T206 WILLIAM POWELL. THE CARD HAS BEEN SIGNED BY POWELL IN BLUE INK. THE CARD IS IN EX CONDITION WITH LIGHT WEAR ON THE CORNERS. THE CARD HAS A SWEET CAPORAL TOBACCO BACK. CARD IS WELL CENTERED AND HAS A CLEAN BACK. THE SIGNATURE IS BEAUTIFUL AND DARK. THE SIGNATURE IS GUARANTEED AUTHENTIC 100% MONEY BACK WITH JSA, PSA, OR ANY OTHER RESPECTED AUTHENTICATOR. T206'S ARE TOUGH ENOUGH TO FIND AND EVEN MORE RARE AUTOGRAPHED. Buyer include $3.00 shipping, insurance is optional $1.30 per $100. Payments are accepted through Paypal, Money order, and Check. Please email after auction has ended for total if an international buyer. If sending a check please write the item number on the check or include the invoice. All items will be shipped in bubble packages and are tracked. Any question, comments, or concerns please email, message. "

This is misleading and I tend to think that 99% of the people would agree with me - except for maybe the seller. Nowhere in the auction description does the seller state that this card is a Jack Powell signed by William Powell. This may not be fraud - but it is certainly misleading and borders on fraud. It reminds me of the commercials for Carfax where there is a car in the flood and the seller changes the description of the car from "slight water damage" to "NEW INTERIOR."

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Posted By: DJ

You used the word "fraud" not me and that was my point.

Is it misleading, absolutely.

If it is brought to the attention of the seller (who may not know this) and he doesn't change his description, it may speak volumes about the seller's integrity.

I will tell you a tale about fraud. About ten years ago, on eBay, there was a guy who had a small collection of T206 signed Hall Of Fame trading cards. I remember two of them, a Rube Waddell and a Hugh Jennings.

He admitted that he knew they were forgeries and were selling the cards "as is". The lot sold for like $110.

A week later, the high bidder threw them up on eBay individually without stating that they were forgeries and made a quick $600 profit.

DJ

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

DJ - I'm in complete agreement... but - couple things I want to point out...

According to Black's legal dictionary, fraud is "[a] knowing misrepresentation of the truth or concealment of a material fact to induce another to act to his or her detriment." I should note I pointed the fact that this card was not William Powell out to the seller 3 or 4 days before the auction's end and no amendment or mention to this was made. Although this is not meant to be a legal discussion, I would certainly argue that the seller concealed a material fact (that the card is of Jack Powell, not William - which he or she had notice of) in order to induce a purchaser to act to his or her detriment, ie: purchasing the card of Jack Powell, believing it was William and signed by William. I feel an argument could be made that this is fraudulent behavior...

Now, all that aside, I actually don't believe that I ever called what the seller was doing fraud or fraudulent. I did say Leon might want to bring this to the attention of his fraud guy (who I believe is Leon's contact at eBay who deals with fraudulent and misleading baseball auctions and is from the fraud department). Poor descriptive term for the eBay guy on my part i guess. Bottom line is we agree - misleading (at the least) and meant only as a warning to potential bidders who were reading the thread and possibly thinking of acquiring a signed t206.

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Posted By: Bob

I'm more of an autograph guy, but I wonder about something...how baseball card collectors venture into the autograph realm.

Example. You buy a T206 card that is deemed VG+ and you send it in to get graded. That grade (by who knows who) tells you what the worth is basically.

You buy an autograph and you do not choose to have it authenticated.

Take for instance the collector above with the T206 signed cards or that Ruth book that keeps popping up.

In this age of investing/collecting autographs, isn't a piece of mind a good thing? If you were to sell them, nobody would touch them without certification of some sort. If they are authentic, those three could fetch...what?...$8,000. If not authentic, $30.

I think in the back of the mind, there is always that doubt that the authenticator is wrong (then you hate that authenticator for not telling you what you want to hear) or you simply don't want to be told the very bad news. With cards, there really isn't such dramatic news as to say that something is worthless and you have been duped of your monies.

I would love to see (and buy) some signed T205's. It's amazing how rare those are in signed form.

Regards,

Bob

2 cents about above. I think there is a fine line between what is fraud and what is simply a lack of an education. If the seller doesn't change his description, he is at fault here for stubbornly moving along without the proper information to the potential buyer.

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Posted By: Glen Turner

Bob:
Authenticators are great, but they do miss the boat.
In 1965 in Houston, Texas at the Continental Hotel I stood and watched Roberto Clemente sign three cards for me.
I sent them in to PSA and they authenticated one of the three cards.
Another time I sent them in a 1960 Fleer and a 1961 Fleer cards signed by Paul Waner which I received back in the same self-addressed envelope. They authenticated one of the two.
I have also seen many autographs autenticated by PSA that there was not a doubt in my mind that they PSA was wrong.
Just my two cents.