Seeing Red At The Price of High Grade T 210s

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Posted By: bruce Dorskind

Although we have long been advocates of focusing one's collection on high
grade cards, we find it remarkable that the prices for T and E issues
(other than T 201, T 202, T206, T 207 and E 90, E 91, E 92 and E 145) have
soared to record breaking levels nearly every time a PSA 5,6 or 7 example,
not to mention ultra rare PSA 8 and PSA 9 cards, appear at public auction.

Slightly less than 500 T 210's have been graded by PSA. Only 17% of those
cards have been graded 5 and above.

Even so, we find it remarkable that more than 5 hours prior to the closing of
an auction for T 210 Series 6 in PSA 5, the card is at nearly $1000.00

With so few cards in PSA 5 and above, only one or two collectors will have
any shot at completing a ranked registered set.

We are certainly beginning to wonder if the sky is truly the limit for high grade
and high grade D. E. and T cards.

Please refer to: KUHLMANN T210 OLD MILL Series 6 PSA GRADED EXCELLENT 5
RED BORDER OLD MILL CIGAR CARD / VERY RARE / LOOK Item number: 290146832631

We welcome your comments



Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: David Atkatz

Here's a comment:

Is there some reason why you constantly use "the royal we"?

We are not amused.

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Posted By: Steve f

here we go...

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

It isn't so much just graded, high grade D T and E cards...

It is T210 high series cards.

Here are current prices for a few, not to out them, but so you'll know:

290145682023 Rohe T210 series 8 ends 8-12-07 12:45 $33.77

290146832059 HOFFMANN T210 series 6 ends 8-12-07 18:17 $158.95

290146832631 KUHLMANN T210 series 6 ends 8-12-07 18:19 $910.00

150148833675 ATWELL T210 series 6 ends 8-12-07 19:08 $152.50

150148833946 GOOSTREE T210 series 6 ends 8-12-07 19:09 $100.00

150148834164 OYLER T210 series 6 ends 8-12-07 19:10 $150.00

150148834413 Walden T210 series 6 ends 8-12-07 19:11 $96.00

150148834670 Willis T210 series 6 ends 8-12-07 19:12 $164.50


The T210 cards for series 6, 7, and 8 are not very plentiful. It isn't just about graded or high graded. I actually think 6s and 7s are less plentiful than 8s, but that the demand for 8s was more. And the truth is that for years there hasn't been much demand at all for the red border cards.

I think that the prices above will increase over the next 4 hours. Kuhlmann might be close to where he'll sell. All will increase, the others with more of an increase than Kuhlmann. Even that series 8 Rohe will sell for more than that.

Frank

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Posted By: barrysloate

It's very difficult to find high grade T210's because of the red borders, and Series 6 is not an easy one.

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Posted By: Brian

<<We welcome your comments>>

Ok, your act is tired and old.

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Posted By: Dave

I've only been posting to this forum for 8 months or so....who is the "we" you are talking about ? How many people are you speaking for ?

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Posted By: barrysloate

This is an old story on the board. Bruce only refers to himself as "we", never as "I". Don't try to figure it out, because you can't.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

you guys do not like Bruce....just say so. Let the man post w/o hassle....surely someone cannot bother yous this bad. GO hug your child, it is SUnday !

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Posted By: JimCrandell

I agree--if Bruce wants to say we let him say we. Maybe he speaks for more than him--maybe he doesn't. Whatever--in my opinion he is one of the best posters on Net54 so just let him post and rather than hassling him don't respond.

Jim

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Bruce is quirky but very, very informative. Look past the 'we' stuff as he almost universally posts valuable stuff.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

The concept of acquiring the best example of a collectible is neither new nor unique to this hobby. However the availability of independent grading services to quantify the quality of individual specemins is new to this hobby, although not unique to it.

Unfortunately, these grading services are experiencing some growing pains with regard to establishing the existence of alteration applied to individual examples. This status temporarilly makes high grade purchases more risky than they should be.

When prices of this material are appreciating rapidly, one is tempted to absorb more risk than many would consider prudent. I hope that a solution is soon forthcoming, and that noone suffers significant damage caused by this grading inadequacy.

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Posted By: Dave

I have found some of his posts to be very informative. I thought he was speaking for a group of collectors this whole time...LOL

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Posted By: Andrew

People have asked numerous times about the "we" reference, I don't remember Bruce ever answering. So since it's such a discussion topic, maybe that's why the moniker continues. Yes he has the right to refer to himself in the manner that he wishes, but since it's such a haughty thing to say, people are going to respond.

There's a certain consensus to message boards, go on the edges of that, and you'll get called on it.

It's not the best analogy: a few years ago someone with half their face pierced and tattooed snapped, "What are you looking at?" Answer, "What the hell do you think I'm looking at."

If you crave attention, you'll often get it.

- As head of the Royal Court and authority on everything, I have spoken. - Andrew

"Take your life in your own hands and what happens? A terrible thing: no one to blame." -- Erica Jong

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

dont see yous posting hardly ever....so now you need attention ?

Picking on a person by the way they write is not warranted when the writer is consistent with his/her ways. Good or bad get use to it. The guy is just talking about the hobby. Offer something or remain a frickin lurker !

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Posted By: Bill Stone

Well they have all closed now and I can only say WOW!!! When I first started with the T210 Series 6 Bill Cornell told me the nice thing was they were still available in the $25.00 range. Well I guess those days are gone --but I am happy with the one I won !!!!!!!

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Congrats, Bill!!!!

Final prices...

Rohe series 8 $76

Willis s 6 $317.56

Walden s 6 $202.50

Oyler s 6 $230.06

Goostree s 6 $230.06

Atwell s 6 $230.06

Kuhlmann s 6 $910.00

Hoffmann s 6 $407.00


Now those are some serious prices for series 6 cards. My thinking is that series 6 and 7 have not been collected much, in times past, partly because they depicted teams low down in the minor league system. At least series 8 had class A teams, with several players who were in the majors before or after 1910. All along there was little interest in T210s, but even less so in series 6 and 7. Here in the last couple of years the collecting pressure on T210s has increased greatly, with it becoming obvious how difficult series 6 and 7 cards are to locate.

When originally collected, I can foresee that a T210 card might be more likely to be kept if the player made it up to the major leagues... but if a player didn't make it then it was more likely his card would be pitched. Players from series 6 and 7 were on class D teams, and few players made it much higher; these cards were less likely to be retained. At least that is my thinking on them.

And guys, Bruce's abrasiveness and "we"ness can be annoying to some, but he knows a bit about ball cards and the old game. Don't run him (them) off, please.

Frank.

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Posted By: Shawn Chambers

Congrats on the win, too, Bill. I batted .000. Gotta love those card, but
I have to wonder about some possible shill bidding on the Kulhmann. Just wondered what you and Frank thought about that one?


Shawn

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Posted By: Jay

Interesting that someone with no feedback bid the lot from $346 to $910

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Hey Shawn,

I think on Kuhlmann, that Bidder 4 was really after the card, partly for what Bruce says above about graded T210s, but mainly because it is in series 6, a little bit because it is a good looking portrait card. Bidder 4 put in a strong bid on August 6th. Sunday morning, August 12th, Bidder 6 started pushing on that bid... he bid for 12 minutes, 10 bids, and moved the price from $351.89 up to the $910 level. Once there, with Bidder 4 still on top, Bidder 6 was done. I don't think Bidder 6 was shilling... but it could have been. If I understand Jay, is that yellow pawn figure indicating zero feedback, a new eBayer?? If so, then maybe it was a shill.

These prices sure make a fellow think about becoming a series 6 seller instead of a series 6 collector. Tough little fellas, aren't they!

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Even worse, Bidder 6 registered withing 24 hours of the sale. And at the time had made a total of 11 bids on 2 items. 10 of those bids was on Kuhlmann.

Shawn, it is looking more like a shill.

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Posted By: larry

I know Bruce many years, he is a very knowledgable person and been around as long as me, myself and I, maybe the "we" means he is a gemini?????

I am a Gemini, and for now on...I want to be known as a split personality..........SP for short print, I mean split personality..I mean me, myself and I...

at least Bruce has years of practice in the business world and rare sports cards........keep posting Bruce, do not let THEM know you have multiple talents!

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Posted By: Ralph

Wow!!! That's unreal,I remember paying $5.00 a pop no matter who the player Except Jackson & Stengel.My first Jackson I paid $125.00 that was in 1984,second Jackson was $100.00 & the other three were 75.00 each.I remember which cards were the toughest,any of 6 except believe it or not Stengel was not a difficult card to find nor was Joe's.The toughest card I remember was some of the newer catalogued cards & to this day if the Hyames-Wilmington card is ever on ebay it should top the Kuhlman card quite easily as would the Kelly-Mascot card of Goldsboro.I say this in honesty if I had the T-206 Wagner card & someone had the Kelly-Mascot card I would trade it card for card,you might think what are you crazy ,I would say no I am just a collector but if any of you ever see the mascot card you may say Wow!!! what great card as for Wagner I have seen that card way too much.Well back to working on my house

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

But........
Missing the 'whilst' that is normally salted in for good measure.......
I'm disappointed.......


T210's have been on a roller coaster for the last 2-3 years....mostly up but some have settled as the 2-3 people finishing the WHOLE set voraciously have neared the end. Most of them, from what I know, like nice clean copies but haven't been killing themselves for high grade ones because they just don't exist. I know many people have started some of the sets (each series being a 'set') during this runup and it's been costly for all.

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Posted By: Bill Stone

Frank --don't think about becoming a Seller until you get those last two. I want to see you post the entire series 6 set!!

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Posted By: Bill Stone

Tom --I will admit my part in the last few years being an active buyer of the set. While it has been costly to buyers I am sure the sellers love it. I guess that is the free market at its best. If I only had a few of these cards and they were bringing these prices I would also consider cashing out now while the demand is high.

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Posted By: John S

Bruce's observation applies to all levels of condition for T210's. I pick these up occasionally and have a few players remaining on my wantlist. As recently as six or seven years ago VG cards from all the series could be had for $10. It is almost impossible to get any card in any condition for under $30 currently.

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Posted By: Shawn Chambers

Ok Ralph,

No you've got me really wanting to see the Kelly Mascot card...

No pic available on vcp...any scans anywhere??

When I can figure out the best approach, I really want to put together an online gallery of the entire set of T210s (with help from other collectors of course!).

Shawn

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Posted By: Ralph

I hope I can be able to post a scan,I will tell you one thing you better have some paper towels ready as your going to be drooling on zee keyboard.I am serious this card is the best looking card in my opion anyhow,I'll keep ya posted

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

OK, Bill...

If you find me an Angermeier fielding, then I'll try to offer too much money to Jim Clarke for the Whitaker that he outbid me on. If I get 66 of them I'll pile 'em up on the scanner, set the resolution on high, and post the results.

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Posted By: Bill Stone

Frank ---another incentive to find the elusive card !!!!!!!

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Posted By: Jay

I have only one slabbed T210(a duplicate) which is an SGC60 and is severly downgraded because of an OC back. It is a series 8 De Montreville. So some high grade ones do exist.

(See William's post below for scan)

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jay- your picture is very large and is skewing the thread.

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Posted By: Jay

Barry--Unfortunately that is the only size my scanner produces. Could one of the moderators please shrink it?

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Posted By: William Brumbach

Cropped and shrunked...

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Posted By: Jay

Thanks William!

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

That's one beautiful card......

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

When I got this one back I thought it should have graded a notch higher...

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Posted By: Jay

Frank--You old slabhead you. What are you doing getting cards slabbed?

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Just learning from you, Cardmaster Jay!

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Keep em coming.........

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Posted By: John

Here's a few of mine....

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Posted By: Jay

John--Great looking orange border!

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Posted By: John

Thanks Jay.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

NE more? ..............

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Posted By: Zach Rice

Joe, here are a few more nice examples from the set.

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Posted By: John

I have some others yet to be scanned which are around the same grade as above.

Here are a few other nice ones...



And of course my all time fav regardless of grade.

I keep hearing a lot about this mascot card....going to be tough to beat Mr. Benny as the best T210 IMO.

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Posted By: John

Nice cards...Zach!

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Posted By: Shawn Chambers

John, you just had to go and rub that card in my face again!! Ha ha. I have got to find one of those...I gotta see the mascot card, but I, too, can't hardly imagine one cooler than this.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Wonk ... Benny reminds me of Easy Rider. ...........