Cut from a sheet -Is that ok?

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Posted By: JimB

With all the talk about the Gretzky Wagner possibly being cut from a sheet (still no conclusive evidence of this - only rumors) - perhaps in the 1980's, it raises an interesting question: So what if it was? If it is an original period sheet, the card would have to have been cut sometime. Does it matter if it was cut in 1909 or 1979? A few years back, SGC graded a bunch of T204s from a sheet Nagy cut up in the 1970's. These were very high grade cards and were sold in a Mastro auction. I don't want to encourage people to cut up uncut sheets because I think they are important historical records, but philosophically speaking, is there a problem? I am curious to hear what you all think.
JimB

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Honestly...

since it was originally printed with the intention of being cut...

I have never been too "bent" about it.

I thought it was common knowledge that the first two PSA 10 Topps 1952 Mantle cards were cut from sheets in modern times.


I just really don't have that big of a problem with it.

I think it is just a benefit of owning an uncut sheet.

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Posted By: Steve Murray

I have no problem with a card cut from a sheet. I do have a problem with cutting up a sheet. I agree with Jim on that one. So long as the sheet is period and some moron wants to destroy it what can I say?

SGC apparently takes a dimmer view of the practice. I noticed that most all of the blank-backed e97's (that I presume were cut from a sheet) have been graded "A" for AUTH.

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Posted By: John

Not a fan of the cut from a sheet no big deal thing. The whole point of a Gem card is the fact it has survived all these years in its current state of condition as it was originally issued from its factory.

Anything else is taking a shortcut no pun intended.

Just my 2 cents, good question though Jim and it certainly does have its philosophical dynamic huh??

John

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Posted By: Jason L

cutting up an uncut sheet after it's left the factory, is basically altering a factory product

I think the guy who did it (if he did so), is an idiot.
You go from having a 1/1 priceless uncut T206 sheet, to a 1/50-something Wagner in remarkable...Oh! and c'mon - you've got an uncut sheet, and it only scores you an 8 after the trim?! nice job. putz.

Do I really care? no
Will I ever play in this sandbox? no
Does my opinion matter much here? no
But it is Friday, the first one of June, and I now have one foot out the door and my eye on beer and pizza!

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Hal I was not aware that the Mantles were sheet cut, I thought they were from a Mr. Mint find?

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Posted By: JimB

John,
But isn't it just as rare or rarer for a sheet to survive all those years in uncut form thus making a card cut from such a sheet equally as spectacular? How many T204 sheets are floating around from which to cut mint cards from?
JimB

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Agree completely (don't I always?) with Wonkaticket.

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Posted By: Wesley

Cards cut from sheets are fines as collectibles, but the hobby does not value these cards as much as factory issued and factory cut cards. A perfect example are the E97 and E93 blank back cards mentioned above. The sheet cut blank back E97 and E93 cards graded SGC A sell for a fraction of what regular cards sell for.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Peter:

I have always heard that they were sheets that belonged to the original family that owned Topps.

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Posted By: John

Jim,

I would argue even rarer since the factory had no intention of the cards ever leaving in sheet form. Hence my issue with anyone who destroys such a valuable piece of collecting history for a few single blazers.

John

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Posted By: JimB

Richard,
Regarding the E93 blank backs, I think it is a different issue. First of all, I think they are currently undervalued since they are all one-of-a-kind, but that is a different issue. They are different from the Gretzky Wagner and the T204s that SGC graded in that the E93s are obvious handcuts and have undersized borders, but the Gretzky Wagner and the T204s are full sized, with straight edges, and look professionally cut. They look like other cards cut during the period. Maybe that should not make a difference. That is sort of what Bill Hughes was saying. Maybe his argument has more merit than I originally thought.
JimB

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Posted By: Joseph

Ta-dah!

Finally someone grasps the concept at the core of Michael O'Keeffe's very fine book.
"The Card" is quite fair in postulating that it might be okay if the card were trimmed/cut
from a sheet. What makes the book interesting is that MASTRO is the only person in the world unwilling
to talk about it.

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Posted By: John

Jim,

Also we have Wagner’s to look at, we have nice ones, beat ones etc. However if the rumor is true about this so called sheet, we now no longer have that sheet now do we? If in fact this did transpire the people who did this have sacrificed a wonderful and exceedingly rare piece of collecting history for many future generations of collectors, and for what a single card we have multiples of?

To me sort of like getting cut signature of Jefferson and from the Declaration of Independence.


I hope this explains my stance a bit better, but all in all a good question.

edited for historical mistake, good catch Brian.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

I do have a Cobb in an SGC Authentic holder, so I wish it was one of a kind. However, hasn't there been quite a few examples floating around auction houses lately, as well as some uncut sheets?

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Posted By: JimB

Scott,
There was a group of 18 (plus or minus a few, I will have to chekc) that all came from the same source outside the hobby that consigned the two E93 sets of E93s on uncut panels. One set was made of 3 panels, the other made of two. They were auctioned off in two consecutive auctions, but it was essentially the same find. Presumably the person cut up an additional panel with 18 on it and made individual cards. All eighteen are different. They were purchased as a lot in Mastro and over a period of about six months were most sold individually on Ebay. A few of the bigger ones (like your Cobb I think and a Wagner) made it into a bigger auction as individual lots this past year. But they were all from the same group. I don't know of any other E93 blank back examples from before that time and the recent flurry is all from the find of about a year and a half ago. There were no duplicates in that find.
JimB

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

Here's the deal, before slabs, if anybody had a sheet of cards. It's possible that they would have frammed it or tacked it to the wall.

Look of the advantages of displaying the cards in this manner. Perhaps the pinhole(s) in the top border would damage that particular card, but the rest of the cards would remain undamaged. So a card in the middle of the sheet would be well-preserved.

My thinking is that keeping the card on the sheet was a wonderful way of preserving the card. The other factor is scarcity.

Just like '52 Topps wax packs are scarce, so are uncut sheets of T206. However, there might be limited demand for uncut sheets. Whereas there's a huge demand for one of the big four.

Peter

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Not sure those uncut blank-backed E93's on panels/sheets are a good example because, being blank-backed, they are not final production run baseball cards. To really compare an apple to apple, one would have to compare the price of a final production run (i.e., with full backs) e93 cut from a panel/sheet to the "regular" E93. To go further, in my view the reason the uncut E93's did not sell for higher prices, despite the condition issues, was because they were blank-backed.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

ever seen some of the T206 threads where we talk about how sheets of T206's were printed? So.....if this T206 Wagner was cut from a sheet, was it the ONLY Wagner on the sheet or were they the same card top to bottom.....i.e. multiple Wagners on the sheet?

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi John,
That's funny.... because George Washington never signed the document.

Be well Brian

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Posted By: joe brennan

Didn't the Hockey hobby shy away form the Orr Rookie PSA 9 because of rumors that it was sheet cut?

In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Or all of those 1957 Topps sheets that were being used in a house as insulation that have been cut down and slabbed. Be well Brian

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Posted By: Chris Mc

I have a couple of uncut strips. I think they have great value. I myself will not cut up a sheet just to make a buck. I would rather have a lesser grade card that has survied than a sheet cut card.

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Posted By: Brett

I would consider cutting up a strip to be altering and very deceiving. Then you send it off to be graded and it comes back as a PSA 8 without anyone knowing it has been recently cut. I don't agree with the people who say that "it was going to be cut anyways" because the fact is that the factory didn't cut the card, YOU did !! Thats the big difference. I personally would rather have a uncut sheet because you hardly see any from the t206 period. They would also make a neat display.

I don't like Upper Deck and the other card companies cutting up autographs either. Bat cards, jersey cards.... just a waste of memorabilia.

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Posted By: John Kalafarski

Andy Madec had a group of 1933 World Wide Gums cut from a sheet and were graded by PSA as authentic trimmed which seems a bit harsh; I think the lable should read "cut from uncut sheet." The cards were very nice and went for a song. The Foxx #29 is a beauty!

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Posted By: John

I caught that Brian after I typed that boy do I feel dumb LOL. However in my new book you will find how Bill Mastro removed Washington's signature from the document, and how a lot of our founding fathers were real shady types.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi John,
I assumed you were trying to add a little humor to the discussion, as usual, and nobody else caught it. Besides I know you know that Adams was the only other former President to sign.... Be well Brian

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Posted By: John

I wish, but in fact just a dumb quick grade school mistake...LOL.

But as John Lovitz would say...”yeah it was a little joke yeah that's the ticket!”

Take care,

John

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Posted By: JimB

Peter Calderon just dropped me a line to correct my memory on the E93 blank backs. The uncut sheets/panels and the 15 E93 blank backs did not come from the same source. It was just a coincidence that they came to light in the same auction. Nevertheless, I do not know of any other E93 blank backs.
Jim

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Posted By: Brett

Heres one of them:

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Posted By: JimB

Another correction from Peter Calderon:

The E93 and E97 sheets as well as a lot of 4 blank back E93s and 8 blank back E97 colors came from one source. The large lot of 15 blank back E93s came from a different source.
JimB

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Posted By: davidcycleback

If it's cut from a sheet later on, you're supposed to say so. It's up to the buyer to determine how that effects price/desirability. I hazard to say that all baseball card collectors prefer their single cards to be factory cut, meaning cut by the factory that made them and in the year of issue. Even if Upper Deck itself cut down 1989 UD sheets in 2005, many collectors were consider these cards to be of lesser value than the vintage cuts.

Now, there are a lot of non-factory cut cards that are happily collected and even graded. For example, the 1984 Topps/Nestle 792 sets were issued only in uncut sheets and all singles were cut later by dealers. There is no such thing as a factory cut Nestle 792 card. There is no scandal or deception about this, as it is known Topps only issued the cards in sheets and the price guide books say singles were cut by dealers. In fact, Nestle sets are more expensive in singles form than in uncut sheets form, as the sheets are plentiful compared to other sheets and most collectors prefer singles ... Most Topps progression proofs were also cut from sheets later on.

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Posted By: Dylan

Isn't it true that a factory cut and a cut done, oh in the last couple decades look different as well?

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi David,
Here's one of those Nestle's...