Picked up autograph T206...but wrong guy

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Posted By: Dave F

I remember past threads about auto's of this era..but can't find anything on value. Won't mention what I paid for it...probably wayyy over paid.

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Posted By: Trae R.

Dave, judging by past auction results I'd say you got a pretty good deal!

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Posted By: Dave F

Well the thing is I know it was Elmer Smith and not Heinie Smith that signed it....

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Posted By: Dave F

Here is the link below. Actually after looking at it...I don't want it. I saw it listed on ebay..and hit the trigger fast looking at the title of the auction....Heinie Smith PSA/DNA....which it really isnt...havent paid yet, but guess I'll freaking have to or get hit with the negative...I just think it should have been listed as Elmer Smith in the title....and I know...I should have read the whole thing first.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=180124199797&rd=1&rd=1

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Posted By: Turner Engle

So is "Heine" Smith, Elmer Smith's nickname? Or are they two different people?

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Posted By: Turner Engle

Nevermind. You answered my question.

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Posted By: Dave F

Two different people...Heinie Smith I would have been happy with. He died in the 1930's I believe...Elmer didn't come into the league until right after the T206 era..maybe 1913-14? He lived into the early 1980's.


I'm just curious with the seller having listed it as Heinie Smith PSA/DNA...do I have any right to ask to just pay his seller fee's but say I don't want the card with the title he had it for?

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Posted By: DJ

I would be far from disappointed if I were you with that purchase. Common, uncommon signed T206's have been bringing $350+ in unslabbed form and it's unlikely that any Heinie Smith's exist, especially signed in pen having passed away in the late 1930's and wasn't exactly a "superstar". I'm sure the seller simply made a mistake in the listing, which happens. I'm sure anyone here (including myself) would take it off your hands with a small profit your way.

DJ

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Posted By: Russ Bright

wow, i think that's a very fair price for an autographed T206, reguardless of who it is... if you don't want it, i'll take it off your hands for what you paid plus a little juice (or something trade-wise)

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Posted By: quan

you're mad because the guy that signed the card is not the player depicted? thus it would be worth less than "henie" smith signing his own card...

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Posted By: MVSNYC

ummm, i would not want a card of one player, signed by a different one...weird. it was definitely mis-represented. my guess is, you got all excited and clicked "buy it now" not realizing it was signed by a different player, am i right? i think you can try to ask to cancel the deal, but the seller might give you a hard time, good luck.

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Posted By: Lee

Last time this card sold a few months ago it went fo about $130....you paid market price because it is a different person! No deal here!

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Posted By: James Feagin

I actually made a thread (or commented in one) about this exact card a few months ago. It was being sold by Joe's Vintage Sportcards in Illinois. After doing some research I e-mailed him, they told me they would disclose that it wasn't Heinie Smith, but didn't. This card is of little interest to T206 autograph collectors because it is not the player who signed it. Who cares if it is a signed T206 if it isn't the right person? If Bob Feller was to sign a common T206 card, should it bring a premium because it is signed? I also recall some T206 PSA/DNA autographs from Chief Bender's wife that didn't bring too much. My guess is that this guy bought the card from Joes's, realized it wasn't the right player, and decided not to disclose any information.

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Posted By: Dave F

Yes...I got excited...and jumped the gun...totally my fault for not reading down the entire auction page. But..I still don't want the card. It's not Heinie Smith. I wouldn't want to pay for a Cy Young autograph either and get a Irv Young.

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Posted By: Lee

I can sense a loss here for Dave......

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Posted By: Brad

The sellers ebay name is "scars_lair", I doubt you'll get your money back! But it worth a shot!

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Posted By: Dave F

I haven't paid him yet...almost wondering if he gets crappy if it's worth taking the neg over losing the money.

I'm not trying to be a total ass about it...he listed if "in a not so true sense"....and I screwed up and fell for it immediately. I'd offer to pay the ebay fees for listing it.

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Posted By: Lee

take the loss, sell the card for what you can on the b/s/t like usual....don"t take tye neg feedback...it can really affect you!

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Dave:

Are you sure that the autograph alone can not be worth more than you are paying for it?

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Posted By: Brad

Lee's right it's not worth the Neg, I'd still try to work something out with the seller.

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Posted By: Dave F

The guy lived into the early 80's...it's not worth that much. Not worth what Heinie Smith's would have been only living into the 1930's.

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Posted By: Dave F

On a brighter note....the guy that did actually sign it had a D328 and D350 cards of himself....so if any autograph collectors of either issues out there let me know! LOL.

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Posted By: Lee

I agree with Brad and myself, buy and don't complain because you did not read and research!

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Posted By: Lee

The auto alone ain't worth a lot, sorry Gil

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Well, I don't know this type of item, Dave.

But Russ Bright and DJ about a dozen posts up this thread, think the item may be worth more than you are paying.

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Posted By: DMcD

Seller's bidpage states: "Return policy details: You may return the item for any reason within seven days of receipt." Maybe he will be amenable to killing the deal if he knew you were going to return it anyway.

Gotta wonder why Elmer signed Heinie's card and was it Elmer the Younger or Elmer the Older?

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Posted By: Brad

it was under duress!

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Posted By: Lee

Elmer was the older player, he played in the early 1910's, where Heinie played in the t206 era

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Posted By: Dave F

I would venture a guess that Elmer signed the card in 1981 or so as a half out of his mind old man....didn't have a clue he was signing something that wasn't him.

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Posted By: Lee

Pretty much...he was very old...

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Posted By: Lee

Also, discounting dave's idea.....Elmer Smith probably didn't get a lot of fan mail in his older years, so he signed everything he got in the mail.

Edited to add:

He lived to 90!

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Posted By: Dave F

Well..I've emailed him...left this response...if it comes off as a "jerk"...don't know what else to do...was trying to be completely nice.

"Hi there. Unfortunately I'm really not wanting this card after looking at it. It is listed in the title as Heinie Smith PSA/DNA, and is actually Elmer Smith..a totally different player not even associated with the T206 set. Please let me know your thoughts. I've never had this problem before, and obviously was my own doing hitting the BIN after seeing the title. I do think I should be responsible for your ebay listing fees so your not out any money and could relist it. Please advice. Regards, Dave"

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Posted By: jay wolt

Dave - 2 posters already said they would buy it for higher then you paid.
Make the transaction, exchange positive feedbacks then flip the card and
make a few $ and make 1 of the posters happy.
Turn a bad deal into a positive one!

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Posted By: DMcD

Elmer the Older:
Born: 1868
Died: 1945
ML career: 1886-1901, OF with 5 NL teams
(40 yo at onset of T206 era)
Elmer the Younger:
Born: 1892
Died: 1984
ML career: 1914-1925, OF with 5 AL & 1 AL teams

I guess we're all presuming it was Elmer the Younger that signed the card. I was just introducing, how you say, a jenesaisquoi.

"a half out of his mind old man" . . HEY! I resemble that remark!

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Posted By: Dave F

Jay...
I wouldn't have a problem with that...but I "think" the posters felt it was another T206 player just on a different card...in reality that isn't the case and I'm not trying to mislead anyone. It's not worth $150.

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Posted By: Lee

NO...Elmer Smith was not on t206.....I did the research the first time this card came for sale.....he was the oldest Smith from this era, living to be 90 or so!

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Posted By: Brad

Jay is absolutely right! Don't look at it as losing, you can always find ways to regain your money.

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Posted By: Lee

Elmer John Smith (September 21, 1892 - August 3, 1984)

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Posted By: Brad

It's Not Big Deal ~ But your stats are worng lee: (September 20, 1892 - August 3, 1984)

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Posted By: DMcD

Lee: I am not sure if you were responding to me. There's two or three Daves in this post. If so, I never said Elmer Smith was on a T206. I was just saying there were two Elmer Smiths, one whose career ended just before the T206 era and one whose career began just after it and I was wondering aloud which Elmer did the signing (although my guess is that it was the younger Elmer). If you were responding to one of the other Daves, forget I said anything.

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Posted By: Lee

I believe that the first time this card was listed, it was commented that the Smith to sign it was not the one depicted on the card....Maybe a past search would help before buying....

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Posted By: mvsnyc

dave- with all due respect, i cannot belive this is at 40 posts already...if you are forced to do the deal, do it, and flip it to one of the people above who said they would take it...

lesson learned for you, look at the card you are buying more carefully next time before you hit "BIN"...

***do whatever you must do to NOT get negative feedback, that will haunt you forever...

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Posted By: Lee

Amen Mike....that is what I've been trying to say indirectly....

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Posted By: T206Collector

Here's why I didn't pick up the BIN last night:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1172605037/

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Posted By: Dave S

Dave--I've dealt with the seller before and he's a good guy, have you even inquired with him yet?? Don't think you'll have a problem..
Think you hit the nail on the head...you should have read the listing more closely, the PSA label clearly depicts what the card is...and in the seller's defense, don't really think he could have correctly titled the listing due to Ebay's limit on "characters"..
Now, a step further...what if the card had been signed by Matty, Honus, etc.? Think you'd have the check in the mail?

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Posted By: DJ

I can understand your frustration and it's not entirely your fault, despite the fact that you didn't look at the label closely, but it's mostly the fault of the seller and the grading company.

But if a Heinie Smith signed card actually existed...that card would be worth thousands and thousands of dollars.

It's not like your buying a reprint or something and in the end, you are buying a signed T206 trading card for $150. I don't see anything wrong with that, especially an uncommon one (regardless of him passing in 1984) that isn't Rube Marquard or Fred Parent.

This seller, if he was honest, would let you out of this sale having misrepresented the item in the title. If he doesn't let you out of the sale with your unhappiness, then he isn't a good seller.

DJ

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Posted By: jay wolt

"but it's mostly the fault of the seller and the grading company"

Don't think its PSA's fault, they listed the card as Henie Smith
and listed the sig as Elmer Smith, what else should they have done.
The seller should have listed both names in the title to avoid confusion.
Shoeless Joe did it properly when he sold it prior.

Here was his title in the prior eBay auction
"1909 T206 Heinie Smith Elmer Smith Autograph PSA/DNA"

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Posted By: davidcycleback

$150 seems a fair price for the card. About all signed T206s with nice signatures are worth $100 and up. There aren't many around.

A lot of vintage autographs were obtained through the mail. My guess for this card is the collector mailed this card to Elmer, not realizing it was a different Smith, and Elmer signed it. Either Elmer didn't notice this artist's rendition was not him, or didn't care. Sometimes collectors sent multiple items for signing (ala 5 index cards and a trading card), so the signer might be whipping through those puppies. Also realize, that many old timer autographs were obtained when they were in their 80s and 90s.

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Posted By: Dave F

I have heard back from the seller. He said he "understands". He has taken me up on my offer of paying his listing fee and selling fee. Basically I'm out $8. Which I'm fine with.... IMO looking back, my feeling is this is a seller and buyer problem on both ends. Seller should probably try to depict auction as close to accurate as possible...but myself as the buyer should obviously take a look at the whole auction listing. Not just jump the gun because something seems too good to be true with a BIN that just listed. Thanks for everybody's input...

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Posted By: DJ

Something I missed the first time in seeing this thread, but why did PSA list both Heinie and Elmer's names on it?

The seller did the right thing and that's good to see.

DJ