The projection is August 4th!

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Posted By: BcD

When do you think Barry Bonds will hit number 756?

And is it legit to you?



BcD

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Posted By: RC

Unfortunately, Barry has burnt a bridge for me. I am turned off by his attitude and obviously the pending allegations. He had an opportunity, in my opinion, to have been one of the most liked players in the history of the game.

Still, has to be considered one of the best ever, but I think the record will be tainted in the views of many.

RC

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Posted By: David Smith

If I were a pitcher who worked hard and never took performance enhancing drugs, I would throw all of my pitches right at Barry Bonds knees every time I faced him.


David

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Posted By: Jason L

where his career HR total should be truncated?
In other words, I don't think you should truly count any that he's hit since starting his "treatments"...I mean, why include those?

So, no, I don't care, and if he reaches 756, and he is greeted with a muted response, I will roll around on the floor, laughing my *** off all night long!
edited to add: taking long pauses to take a breath, gather my composure, have some more beer and snacks, before beginning once again!

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Posted By: Jim Clarke

I hope he never makes it there. I think he will get injured and will call it quits. The record will be tainted if he breaks it. Hank Aaron desrves to still be the King. Being from Atlanta, I am bias...

JC

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Posted By: Darren

Hank Aaron.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

because he'll be in San Diego. I'd say he holds off and sets the record at home the following few days when the horrid Nationals come into town. Heck, with their lousy pitching he could be sitting at about 750 and still have a shot to pass Hank in that series. But 8/4, no, he wouldn't do that to us collectors, who will be preoccupied in Cleveland at the National.

GO BARRY!!!

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Posted By: Cy

I am amazed by all the people, especially on this board, who are so adamant against Barry Bonds. I would like to take a poll. If you believe that Barry Bonds is a cheat and either shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame or shouldn't have his home run record counted, if he breaks Aaron's record, answer me this question.

Did Shoeless Joe Jackson cheat? Should we strike all of his records from the record book?

It amazes me how some can be so vehement against Bonds, then give a blanket pardon to someone who was paid to throw a World Series. Let's assume for the record that both Jackson and Bonds cheated. Who is worse? Is Bonds worse for wanting to do better than he could by artificial means? Or is Jackson worse because he accepted money to allow another team to beat his team in the World Series?

The anti-Bonds/cheating sentiment amazes me. Joe Jackson tried to throw a World Series. Now I know that some will say he really didn't. He just took the money but tried to win. I disagree. He took the money. Who knows when he tried to lose during that series even though his average was high. To say that Jackson took the money but didn't do anything wrong in the game would be like saying Bonds took steroids to help him sleep, not to help him hit baseballs. But Joe Jackson is treated as a god and Bonds as a demon. Face it, Joe Jackson took the money. If he takes the money in order to throw a World Series, shouldn't he be considered a cheat much worse than Bonds?

So I am going to ask this another way. If a player on your favorite team had to either take steroids to improve his game or throw a World Series to another team, which player would you forgive first?

Cy

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Posted By: Jason L

because you're from Atlanta...you are biased because you are an ethical person and a true fan of the game of baseball and are interested in its integrity.

I am making some assumptions, since I have never met you, but I like to extend the benefit of the doubt!

I sincerely hope that Bonds doesn't even come close. Him breaking the record does nothing for the game of baseball but send a message that to be truly remarkable requires performance-enhancing drugs.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I love Barry Bonds and can't wait for him to break the record.

Really.

-Al

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Posted By: Jason L

Shoeless Joe cheated and still needs to buy a ticket to haul his carcass into the HOF.
Pete Rose cheated, hold the hit record, and shouldn't be allowed into the HOF.
I see no reason why we can't extend the same treatment to Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, and Rafael Palmeiro.

Congratulations, they excelled at the game, but they didn't play it right, so we don't need to honor them for it.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Cy, I think the difference here is that none of us were around when Joe Jackson accepted money to throw the 1919 series - we also have never seen him act like an a-hole on a nearly 100% consistent basis.

Barry has never really given a reason for us (The fans) to like him - so comparing him to Joe Jackson is like comparing apples and oranges.

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Posted By: Ken McMillan

I think the D. L. would be a great place for Barry to play. At least Aaron didn't cheat and hopefully the record will stand.

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Posted By: RC

Really, Shoeless Joe has nothing to do with this topic. It is about Barry Bonds. Totally unrelated.

A discussion about Jackson should be on another post.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

If Bonds' cheating involved throwing games, betting on games, being a racist, a mysoginist (did I spell that right?), a drunk, hell, anything that is part of the human condition and the world we live in....I could still look at his swing, his early base-stealing, his decent glove, and say "Seriously flawed individual, but UNDOUBTEDLY a GREAT - maybe ALL TIME GREAT baseball player".

But to be honest, I have absolutely NO IDEA how good a hitter he really is, because he's been getting assistance hitting that piece of white leather for a long long time.
I know EXACTLY how good JJ's hitting abilities were, and were attested to being, and after that I make no great effort to espouse his personal integrity.

So for me Bonds, he's not great, or A great. He's enhanced.
Kind of needs his own category really, where we can put all future enhanced McGwires, Sosas, and their ilk to compare like versus like.


Daniel

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Posted By: Darren

For the record, I'm not an anti-bonds-ite. I do believe what he did was wrong and I don't want his achievement to mar a great record.

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

Most of us have seen the move Eight Men out and Field of Dreams. In both instances, Shoeless Joe was portrayed as a pretty good fellow, naive but a good guy non the less. That's the character I think of when Shoeless Joe is mentioned. He may have been just the opposite, but I have not heard otherwise. So to me Joe was a good guy who did a dumb thing and he paid for it.

Barry is an egotistacal jerk and he plays for the Giants. I despise him for that, not because he took steroids but if others want to use that excuse to kick him around some then so be it. I actually used to like Barry a lot when he played in Pittsburgh. I still like Mark McGwire. I hate the fact that he broke a sacred record using tainted methods but I still think he's a good guy. He gets a pass, Shoeless Joe gets a pass. Barry gets no pass, he wants no pass and deserves no pass.

OT: My son, who plays coach-pitch, couldn't find his shoes the other day as we were getting ready to go to a game. I called him Shoe-less Joe Jackson (his name is Jackson), he didn't appreciate the nickname, but it stuck. My Shoeless Joe Jackson plays SS and Circle (pitching area) and hits lead off. He doesn't know how good he is and I hope he never finds out!

martyOgelvie
nyyankeecards.com

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Posted By: barrysloate

That's my birthday...it would make it easy to remember!

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

I'm going to make the debate hotter. Let's say Barry is not nominated to the All-Star team this year, but is on the verge of breaking the record. Do you think, Bud Selig should make him an honary member of this year's all-star team.

Peter

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

When somebody can prove to me unequivocally that:

1) Hank Aaron did not do anything illegal during his career, despite the prevalence of amphetamines in major league clubhouses in the 1960s,

2) Barry Bonds was the ONLY player in his era to do steroids, and NEVER faced a pitcher on steroids

3) By taking steroids, Barry was not doing EXACTLY what Major League Baseball was practically inviting him to do by having a toothless banned substance policy and endorsing the greatness of the McGwire vs. Sosa home run rance

then I will wipe Bonds out of my memory banks altogether.

Until then, he is an absolutely phenomenal athlete, an incredible baseball player, SO far ahead of all his peers that it's ridiculous. And while his obvious steroid abuse may have turned some flyouts into home runs, it may also have turned some line drive singles into long flyouts, etc. He's still got 8 Gold Gloves, 400 (I believe) stolen bases, and a monster on base percentage, none of which are aided by steroid use. Furthermore, he's got multiple MVP awards that were won before it's universally accepted that his bulbous head began inflating (and should have won one more, but some people apparently thought that Terry Pendleton was more deserving).

The fact of the matter is that the man is a GREAT player, one of the absolute best ever. He's an idiot for tainting his legacy by ingesting every conceivable chemical that could add to his musculature, but then again, so are a great deal of other athletes, dating back years.

Hank Aaron was a great player - in my opinion, one of the top 7 or 8 ever. But I don't know he never cheated. I don't know Roger Maris never cheated. In fact, if Maris was playing today, we'd all be questioning how he could have ONE great year, during which time his hair was falling out in clumps, and then he suddenly suffered a rash of injuries that ultimately ended his career - all signs of steroid use in baseball.

What I do know, is that cheating has been a part of baseball since the day they started paying players to play. When we talk about John McGraw cheating, we talk about it with reverence. When we talk about Whitey Ford cheating, we talk about it with humor. When we talk about Barry Bonds cheating, we talk about it with anger.

I cannot wait for him to break the record. He may be a cheater, he may be a jerk, but he's following a rich tradition of cheaters and jerks who were also amazing baseball players. And like every other cheater and jerk who played, 30 years from now they'll talk less about the negative, and more about what a great player he was.

In my opinion, of course.

-Al

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Posted By: Jason L

I don't.
But I don't think I will need to worry about that happening either, because last I checked, Bud Selig is even less of a Barry Bonds fan than am I...

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Posted By: peter chao

Jason,

The All-Star game will be in SF, Barry's hometown, you have to honor one of the best of all-time in his hometown.

Peter

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Posted By: David Smith

Cy, what records of Joe Jackson's do you want to erase??

As far as I can remember without looking it up, Joe Jackson has NO records!!!

Season or career record for hits?? NO
Season or career record for Average?? NO
Saeson or career record for anything else?? NO

Do you mean erase his stats??

Bonds has or is close to the season and career Home Run record, the season and career Walks record, the season and career Intentional Walks record, season and career On Base Percentage record, season and career Slugging Percentage record, season and career OPS record, most career Runs, most career RBI, most career Total Bases, first to 500 Home RUns and 500 Stolen Bases and some more I am probably forgetting. All of this because of performance enhancing drugs. These are RECORDS for all of history to look back on.

I read a story about Bonds a little over a month ago written by or based on what a Trainer or some other San Francisco Giants employee said. In the article, he said Bonds jersey size increased from like a 44 to a 52, his shoe size increased from a 10 to a 13 1/2 and his cap size increased from a 7 something to over an 8. This was all from the time Barry joined the Giants. What normal person's body increases in size (in those areas) like that after puberty??

To me, Bonds stats before 1998 are probably legit. After 1998, I would use a percentage scale (maybe 40-50%) to see what his stats would have been if he hadn't used drugs.

If Bonds hadn't used drugs, his stats would not have been so GREAT the last nine years. He would not have been so feared and he would not have been named MVP as many times. Just think of how a "clean" player felt when he saw Bonds cheating and getting an MVP award?? Especially if that player had a CAREER year and was also in contention for an MVP Award?? History, at least for that player, would look more favorably on him, especially if he had an above average career and was on the margin for the Hall of Fame.

Joe Jackson was only one person involved in throwing the 1919 World Series. Bonds has been screwing with the entire game for 10 YEARS!!!!

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Posted By: Jason L

it seems like your argument assumes that Barry Bonds' behavior is ok simply because "everyone else has done it-or may have done it" and we shouldn't penalize him any moreso than anyone else.
I would agree that we shouldn't hold him to any different level of accountability than his baseball peers, but I disagree in saying that his behavior is acceptable because it's all relative to what others may have done.

You are more than right that he accomplished some amazing things on the diamond before he started doing whatever he did to his body, and it is sad that he felt he needed to do the drugs (maybe in response to being left out of the McGwire-Sosa attention/lovefest), because I would love to have seen what he could have done without going down that path...

Aside from all the drug controversy, he engenders so much dislike among fans because he openly disregards our attention. I don't know why someone would honestly like a guy who constantly behaves as though (and says that) he doesn't care about you...like some sort of dysfunctional relationship.

Peter,
It may be in SF, but I still would be surprised if Bud Selig felt compelled enough to do something for him...but we'll see! (He'll probably get voted in anyways...)

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Posted By: E, Daniel

"He's still got 8 Gold Gloves, 400 (I believe) stolen bases, and a monster on base percentage, none of which are aided by steroid use". Really?

Lets just for a minute remember what steroids do. It's not that they give you power to hit home runs or materialize the statistics next to your name. Or make you faster on the basepaths. They GIVE you the ability to train and have your muscles repair themselves from the intense training, so that you can continue training. Thats how you get bigger, thats how you can build more of that 'fast twitch' muscle that allows you to explode yourself into activity. Its how you run faster (see Ben Johnson and innumerable track athletes). Its how you everything. I could get a decent OBP if pitchers facing me were scared witless I was going to crack one out of the park at any given moment. An 'un-enhanced' Bonds would have broken down under the training load many times, had injuries that took from his game, had down years, and probably would have been an even bigger SOB because no-one would have been fawning over him at every moment.

And the comparison to Aaron is kind of silly. Amphetamines may hype you up when you're feeling low, but have you ever attempted to complete a controlled series of actions while taking speed? Ahh, not so easy. Try standing still at the plate long enough for the ball to arrive and not go 'down the pitch' to the pitcher looking for it. I also think its safe to say that the physical and mental deterioration that goes on with prolonged amphetamine usage makes it incredibly obvious to ANYONE within 30 feet of the individual that something is seriously wrong with them. You don't play 20 years of hitting 40 run homers, hang out with team mates, hang out signing autographs, do PR for the club, etc. for 20 YEARS if you are a dope fiend. At some point 5-10 years in, your whole world simply falls apart.

Honestly, I have no idea how you can compare the two.


Sincerely
Daniel

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Posted By: barrysloate

Daniel- he passed 500 stolen bases!

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Posted By: peter chao

Jason,

BB is a superstar at the tail end of his career. It would be proper for him to be an honorary member of the team this year. Bud Selig should be above the politics surrounding baseball.

Peter

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Barry, I was only quoting Al.


Daniel

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Posted By: howard

The HR has been cheapened too much over the last twenty or so years for me too get too excited about it. When Aaron played thirty HRs a year was considered outstanding, forty made you a big star and fifty a HOFer. In Aaron's last season Graig Nettles LED the AL with thirty-two HRS. Nowadays we get guys like Dante Bichette and Greg Vaughn hitting forty and fifty.

Make the parks bigger, get rid of the performance enhancing drugs, maybe deaden the ball or raise the mound and then it will be exciting when my nephew hits his 756th HR in 2045.

Howard

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Posted By: David Smith

Peter,

What message does it send to other players and especially youngsters that someone under investigation for perjury and drug abuse be given an Honorary position on the All-Star team??

It would be bad enough that he is voted onto the team let alone be GIVEN a special invite by the Commish.

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Posted By: David Smith

Howard,

You bring up another good point; the mound was higher during a major portion of Aaron's career. I would love to have the steroids taken out of the game and the mound raised and see what today's hitters would do.

My hope for Bonds is that he hits a Home Run early in the season and just after he touches home plate, his heart explodes and he dies on the field. That image would be burnt into people's minds forever and would send a strong message to the youth of the world about messing with performance enhancing drugs.

My second hope would be for Bonds wife to catch him with one of his mistresses........

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Does the winning league of the AS game still get home field advantage in the World Series? If so then Bud Selig shouldn't be putting anyone on either AS team....not that I think he would anyway.

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Posted By: peter chao

Howard, Jason

If BB isn't going to be honored by an invitation to be on the All-Star team, then why celebrate the breaking of Aaron's record at all.

Peter

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Posted By: Mike

I think the real question is when will Barry pass Bruce Bochy for the biggest hat size in MLB history?

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Posted By: Jason L

Now you're coming around!


Like the Soup Nazi on Seinfeld said, "No celebration for you!"

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Daniel:

Sounds great, but Bonds hasn't stolen more than 15 bases in a season or won a gold glove since 1998, which is two years before most people speculate that his steroid use began.

And anyone who denies that amphetamine use was rampant in baseball in the 1960s and 70s hasn't been reading their history. They most definitely were. BOWLS full in major league clubhouses. Taken on a regular basis by many players, and at least occasionally by huge numbers.

We can pretend it's not true, but that doesn't make it not true.

Lastly, Jason, I need to be clear: I'm not saying that what Bonds did was okay because everyone else did. I'm saying that his numbers are overwhelming DESPITE the fact that so many others did steroids as well. Compare Bonds' offensive stats to the rest of the league during the last six or seven seasons. WIth the exception of Pujols, there's not anyone even close. And I think it's safe to say that a LOT of players are on the same juice as Bonds.

So it can't just be the juice that's making him perform so well.

Furthermore, it seems like pitchers juice just as much as hitters. When Jason Grimsley throws 88 MPH his whole career, then all of a sudden his fastball jumps into the mid 90s, you've GOT to suspect something's going on with the pitchers. And like it or not, when it's hit on the nose, a 98 MPH fastball is going to travel a longer distance than an 88 MPH fastball. So how many of Bonds' home runs - or everyone else's, for that matter - are a result of juiced-up pitchers who still throw the ball right down the middle? And should we penalize the hitters for that?

Bottom line, IMO - there are WAY too many variables that enter into the equation - steroids or not - for me to feel comfortable judging.

And while I agree that Bonds is the most dislikeable guy in the game, I couldn't care less about that when I'm evaluating a player's ability to play.

-Al

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Posted By: Anonymous

Barry Bonds Sucks.
I have told him that many times from the Dodger Stadium left field lodge seats
My opinion and I am sticking to it.

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Posted By: peter chao

Jason,

If Bud Selig doesn't celebrate BB's achievement he will be telling the World that baseball is in a horrible mess. Well, is it.

Peter

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Posted By: E, Daniel

from the bowl in the 60's, 70's, AND 80's AL.

Now tell me which players statistics JUMP off the page at you to suggest that using Uppers seriously enhanced their playing abilites?

Again, use mind altering drugs that physically change the composition of your brain over extended periods, and I'll show you 3-7 year careers with a couple of good seasons, and LOTS of ups and downs. Nothing more.


Daniel

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Baseball doesn't have to celebrate BB passing Aaron's record. Let the SF Giants have their own celebration or whatever. I'm sure that Bud Selig has looked into ways to get Bonds out of baseball, but the players union is too powerful to ever make it happen.

IMO the only thing that Bonds will accomplish by passing Aaron's record is to make himself even more reviled than he already is.

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Posted By: howard

Peter, I wasn't actually saying MLB shouldn't celebrate it just that it won't mean anything to me. As for putting Bonds on the all star team, Dan makes a good point. If the game is supposed to mean something then Selig should not put anyone on the rosters who was not legitimately chosen.

You also make a good point that not having a celebration will add fuel to the notion the there is something rotten going on in MLB.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Roger Maris.

Here's some interesting "before and after" figures that compare Bonds to the rest of the league, if you assume that Bonds' steroid use began in the year 1998.

All-Star Appearances - Before: 7, After: 6
MVP Awards - Before: 3 (and he should have won in 1991), After: 4
Gold Gloves - Before: 8, After: 0
Silver Sluggers - Before: 7, After: 5
On Base Percentage (Led League) - Before: 4, After: 4
Slugging Percentage (Led League) - Before: 3, After: 4
OPS (Led League) - Before: 5, After: 4
Total Bases (Led League) - Before: 1, After: 0
Home Runs (Led League) - Before: 1, After: 1. That's right. He only led the league in HR one time after 1993.
Walks (Led League) - Before: 5, After: 6
Extrta Base Hits (Led League) - Before: 2, After: 1
Intentional Walks (Led League) - Before: 6, After: 5

Between 1990 and 1998, Bonds averaged about 36 home runs per year. Between 1998 and 2006, he averaged 44. Take out the one monster season and he's averaged 40. Either way, while he may not have broken Aaron's record without the steroids, he would likely have eclipsed Mays, and perhaps Ruth, anyway. Steroids or not, one of the greatest ever.

-Al

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Posted By: Ken McMillan

Well Peter,

I do not believe anybody should automatically be on an all star team regaurdless of their stats and history. It is an honor that needs to be earned!!! It starts with playing great ball and then continues with being beloved by you fans. Bonds has done neither as of recent. He is no different than anyone else and will need to earn a spot on the team. No such thing as an honorary spot should be available. My thoughts,

Ken

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Posted By: Dean H

This may not be relevant, but nobody ever brings up Gaylord Perry when cheaters are talked about. I believe the spitball was illegal but he made a HOF career out of it. And I don't think he was too hush hush about it. Should he be kicked out of the HOF?? I only bring it up because if we are going to treat B.B. as a cheater, then we need to be equally demanding of other cheaters. Are home runs more important that pitching wins?? I also don't want to come across as letting B.B. slide either. I'm no no Barry Bonds fan so I really don't have a dog in the fight. I just like consistancy. I think most people don't like B.B. because he seems to be a first class A-hole, but I also have to admit I have personally never been around him, just what I see and hear in the media. So it's difficult to separate the personality from the ball player. Good thing Ty Cobb didn't paly today.

Dean

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

It's more than a notion that something rotten is going on in MLB. We know for a fact that Bonds has used a performance enhancing drug. Nobody's feet grow 3 1/2 shoe sizes at the age of 36-40. Why should MLB celebrate Bonds? I think it's fine if SF wants to do something special for him I have no problem with that, but if MLB goes out of their way to do something then they're just wasting money and pretending that the country outside of SF supports Bonds.

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Posted By: Dean H

I think an argument could me made that Bonds was a potential HOF before 1998. It is a difficult situation with valid points on both sides.

DEan

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

The Baseball Almanac lists over 20 ballplayers that have been nominated honorary captains of All-Star teams. If Barry Bonds is approaching one of our hallowed records, shouldn't he be an honorary captain.

Also, if all is right with baseball, then MLB should celebrate the breaking of Aaron's record.

Peter

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Al, there is no doubt that Bonds was a tremendous player pre-steroids and he became an unbelievable player post-steroids. It is also true that Ken Lay was a wealthy man before he took over as CEO of Enron.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Peter, I don't see it happening. Selig hates Bonds - he ain't going to do it.

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Posted By: peter chao

Dan,

You can't seriously compare BB to Kenneth Lay. Mr. Lay destroyed his company and had his day in Court. Barry hasn't.

Peter