Bryan Van Horn and threats....

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Posted By: t-205

He has threated to call my local authorities about a card i sent him. he says it didnt come, but he didnt ask for insurance. $120 card. he send me a check (i live in canada) i cant cash it properly (finally went through after 2 weeks). and also claiming i never send the card. i offered a refund for the card, and still he wont budge. whats everyones view?? i dont want the authorites at my door for something so stupid.

i have done many trasactions in the past on the board, and never had one liek this....

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Posted By: James Feagin

I know Brian and he has always come through for me. I don't think this is the proper forum to air such grievance.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Canada's postal system sucks. The number one rule when dealing internationally is GET INSURANCE.

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Posted By: Josh Adams

I agree with James.
Brian is a stand up guy, and this is not the proper forum for such disputes.


Go Go White Sox
2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: t-205

just asking for advice to be honest. have i done everything to help him out? i'm not bashing him by anymeans. just need to know why someone who trying to get in touch with my local authorities when i have talked to Leon about this situation and Bryan also.
what should i do?

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Posted By: t-205

no no i sent him a card, and i ask him if he wanted insurance, he declined. any thoughts?

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Posted By: bigfish

Did you use delivery confirmation?

Brian is rock solid. I have never had a problem with him.

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Posted By: t-205

he didnt ask for anything like that. just mail the card. he emailed me stating he will file charges with ym local police if he doesnt get payment friday??

canada doesnt have an overnight service to the US and offered paypal in return because its faster.

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Posted By: bigfish

you should air this off line with him. He is a reasonable person IMO

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I don't know Brian, but I've dealt with him both as a buyer and as a seller, and he's an absolute pleasure. I'd deal with him again with no hesitation whatsoever.

-Al

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Posted By: Bill Bellamy

(for Leon)

i just called him. he will take a refund, but i;m out 138 bucks because he didnt ask for insurance or delivery comp.

live and learn....

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Posted By: Mark T

How long has it been since you sent it.

I bought 2 cards from the B/S/T board from a gentleman from canada and its been 3 weeks since he sent it. I know how the mail can be and i am sure it will arrive. If it was 2 months then i would be worried.

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Posted By: Dave F

Bill

Sorry to hear about this...my experience for future transactions is that the delivery confirmation is to protect the seller...not the buyer. And that is well worth the fifty cents.

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Posted By: quan

could take awhile from canada to the usa. brian's always seem pleasant to me also. if he did not want insurance i'd just split the cost down the middle. i don't think you should take the whole blame if you did send the card.

edited to add: loved u in how to be a player and mtv...

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Posted By: Jim Dale

Kind of sad but I got a shipment of a card from Japan in 5 days; and one from Canada to me in the states took 3 weeks. And the shipping \ stamp dates showed the Canadian one took 20 days from shipment point to deliver...don't know whats with that - not sure it helps in this situation but maybe there is hope its just held up.....

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Posted By: leon

Thanks Bill. No way can we be anonymous in this kind of thread. I also have had some extended times getting stuff to our northerly friends in Canada. Without knowing the particulars, with no confirmation, and no tracking, it's easy to have a problem. I have encountered the same thing before but thank goodness the pacakage eventually showed up. It's been very difficult for me to get any kind of tracking at all, from the USPS to Canada....And I agree it's best to exhaust all means privately before taking a dispute public. regards

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

The Canadian Postal System Sucks. It can't be said any clearer than that. The last thing I bought from Canada was a couple of photos that took 5 weeks to get here after paying with paypal....after two weeks I asked the seller if they had shipped them out yet and they said they had gone out the next day after I paid. 5 weeks for an envelope with two photos in it!!!

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Posted By: Brad

Just ask the Canadian seller to ship your cards Xpresspost, 3-4 business day plus you get a tracking # ($12.00Cdn).


Here's a web site, all the info you need!http://www.canadapost.ca/common/offerings/xpresspost/us/rates-e.asp

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Posted By: leon

There is still no form of tracking that I am aware of from the USPS to Canada. The time can be cut down if you pay for expediting....but the tracking still sucks....imo. I hope my Canadian friends don't think I am beating them up...it might be OUR postal system that is doing it. Maybe our resident postmaster will chime in about shipping to Canada?

edited to add...Brad- that is if you are in Canada shipping to the US...I think we are talking the other way around...unless I missed something?

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Posted By: Mark T

I can see if you were sending a package to Russia but its 1 country over. I have been told by a USPS employee that you can pay for all the bells and whistles to send a package to canada but once it hits the border thats all they are responsible for.

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Posted By: Brad

Shipping to canada with tracking #

http://ircalc.usps.gov/intl_speed.asp?CID=10054&MailType=envelope&Pounds=0&Ounces=1

Global Priority Mail - Flat-rate Envelope (Large) 4 - 6 Days $7.50

Global Express Mail™ (EMS) 3 - 5 Days $16.25 ~ Works for me!

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Posted By: leon

My apology...it is shipping from Canada to the US....I am going back to sleep on the couch....

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Posted By: Mark T

but thats only getting to the border at customs. What happens after that is pure luck.

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Posted By: Bill Bellamy

haha yeah the US rates canada to the US is in US funds. add another 15-20% and thats what we have to pay.

one thing that puzzles me is that he recieved the package and wants a refund. i just dont understand. i have 100% rating for ebay and on this board. its just frustrating.......

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Waitaminute...In your first post you say he didn't receive the package and now you're saying that he did receive it. I'm confused.

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Posted By: Brad

Ahh,

Tell the US seller:

Please to declare full amount, $25.00 should be fine!

Mailing Description: "Paper Documents cards!" ~ never had a problem with Canada Customs !

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Posted By: Bill Bellamy

well he stated the card didnt come, but the package did. sorry for the confusion.

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Posted By: Max Weder

Brad

You may never have had a problem, but asking a vendor to declare a false value is an offence under the Customs Act. It is certainly not a recommended course of action, and less so to declare these actions on a public forum.

Max
(who spends days dealing with people who are in trouble with the Canada Revenue Agency and the Canada Border Services Agency)

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Posted By: Anonymous

Just to clarify, the card, an E93 McGraw, was $135.00 plus I added $3.00. The reason I didn't ask for insurance is that insurance was never offered.

Thank You,

Brian Van Horn

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Posted By: Brad

Baseball Cards? I think North America has bigger problems to deal with!

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Posted By: Bill Bellamy

Bryan,
I never said, insurance wasnt offered. u could have asked for insurance and delivery confirmation. you said you recieved the package with no card. sounds kind of fishy. but i'm a good person and have to give you a refund. all i ask is next time please asked for it.
Bill

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Posted By: Anonymous

By the way, I would just like to take a moment and thank my fellow board members for their kind words.

Thank You Again,

Brian Van Horn

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Posted By: Bill Bellamy

Brad,
exactly, everyone does it so no worries haha

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Posted By: Max Weder

Brad

First, when an item is seized by the CBSA, the purchaser has the burden of proof. The CBSA doesn't have to prove anything. The person importing the good must establish its value if questioned. Ebay and other auction houses keep very good records for use by tax auditors and customs inspectors.

Second, there is GST on a gift when it is imported to Canada.

Third, while the CBSA does have many greater things to worry about, it does inspect a number of parcels and letters that cross the border. That includes packages containing baseball cards. And you never know when your package is going to run into a customs official who is a baseball fan and knowledgeable in cards.


Max

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Posted By: Brad

Max,

I here you loud and clear!

Thanks for the info!

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Posted By: Eric B

I think we've done this one before. It is the seller's responsibility to make sure the package arrives, even if the buyer declines insurance. If the seller wants it insured, they need to require it.

But the package arriving w/o the card is something altogether different.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

it sucks to not get a card you won, and it sucks to not get paid. It's sometimes easier to blame the other guy than the situation. Sorry this happened, but I'd wager you'll both get past it, and we won't hear this type of situation from either of you again.

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Posted By: Rhys

Sounds to me like the kind of thing where the losses should be split between both parties. Happened to me once with another longtime forum member over a 1926 Spalding Champions Card worth $75. I had a receipt to show it was mailed, but no tracking number and we both agreed that it was just one of those things and I refunded him $37.50 and everyone was happy. We just sort of had an understanding that if the card ever did show up anywhere that the situation would be immediately rectified 100% rather than 50%.

Does not sound like either party should bear the entire loss when it involves two people doing honest business with a third party interferance.

Just my opinion.

Rhys

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Posted By: Bill Bellamy

exactly, that sound slike a plan also. i dont think brian will go for it though.

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Posted By: Mike

I never understood the whole "offering insurance" to the buyer at a price. As a seller, if I'm selling a big-ticket item, I will simply charge a few extra bucks for shipping/handling and insure the item to protect myself. As a buyer, I always turn down optional insurance because I feel it is the sellers responsibity. If I don't receive the product, I contact paypal for a refund (at least in theory). I just don't believe you should have to insure an item that you have yet to receive. I also don't agree with the 50-50 split. If the seller doesn't take the necessary precautions to protect themselves(insurance, delivery confirmation), their recourse should be with the post office and not the buyer.

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Posted By: leon

A lot of sales involve the negotiating of shipping/insurance. Until it's free to do, it will always be a negotiation. If a seller sells something and offers insurance for a cost, then it's up to the buyer to pay for it or not. Communication prior to the sale is key...as always. regards

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Posted By: Dave F

I just recently had an event involving ebay...a raw T206 that I bought at the last minute for $20.00...shipping was an additional $3. It's been almost a month...no card yet. The seller who is a fairly big time dealer has already got defensive after just asking him when the card was mailed and was it first class, parcel post, etc. He emailed me back right away with "well you turned down the insurance"...and then sent me a scan of the postal receipt he had...even though he didn't self insure, or even bother with a delivery confirmation which I think is stupid to not do. He is right...I didn't pay the additional insurance for a $20.00 card. But to me, a big time seller probably should eat things at that point...especially talking about $20 and not $200. I paid through paypal, so I guess I could raise a fuss over item not received and probably get my money back since he didn't even do a delivery confirmation..but in the end, it's not even worth it...because I'll get hit with the neg. $20 bucks down the drain and another lesson learned.

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Posted By: Mark T

If you are a seller or have a Ebay store its just like having a brick and mortar business. You would not treat your customers bad or talk to them like idiots. They will never do business again with you. Eventually, a bad attitude will end up costing you money.

I have refunded money to people who say they are unhappy with a card just by the way it looks in person. They have left me great feedback and have come back and bought again.

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Posted By: Joe D.

I personally think it is the seller's responsibility to get the product to the buyer.
I don't know the legality of a situation... but if I never receive a product - how should I be expected to pay?

So, I basically think eBay has it backwards (or the eBay sellers do).
"Insurance Optional" --- to me that is at the seller's risk.

For the record - I request insurance on every purchase I make (no matter how small). And, I ship with insurance every time I ship something.

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Posted By: Joann

I agree with Leon that insurance is optional to the buyer - they can elect to pay or not. It helps if the seller is clear in the auction or transaction that non-insured shipments are at the buyers risk - before receiving payment. If the buyer declines, it should be their risk.

As to pursuing PayPal options for non-delivery, this is the exact reason I've changed my ebay auctions so that insurance is mandatory - regardless of the size of purchase - for anyone using PayPal. I also put right in the auction text that this requirement is because the PayPal buyer grievance policies essentially make the seller wholly responsible for all parts of the shipping process. Even if the auction clearly states that non-insured shipments are buyer's risk, the PP system will award the buyer anyways if he does not pay for insurance so I make it mandatory for PP users.

Eventually I will just include insurance in the shipping price, with the result that even people that pay by check or MO will have to pay insurance just because the PayPal users can (and will) start a PP dispute that leaves me holding the bag if they did not pay for insurance and the USPS falls down. It'll be easier to make that standard practice at some point rather than trying to have a different shipping rate for PP users (plus, they just hit the pay now button and the thing cruises through at standard shipping costs without insurance).

Maybe kind of a pet peeve of mine, to use PayPal buyers' remedies to make the seller absorb all shipping risk at no cost to the buyer.

J

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Posted By: Joe D.

when is a transaction of a product complete?

upon payment?

or - when the buyer takes possession of the product?

I always assume it is when the buyer takes possession.... so I have always included insurance in my shipping costs on eBay and the BST.

I am thinking that no matter how it is worded otherwise... legally the buyer would have grounds for a refund of payment if he never took possession of a product.

Lawyers (and law students)?

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Posted By: Brad

Joe.D,

When is a transaction of a product complete?
when the buyer takes possession of the product!

A: Registered Mail

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Posted By: Fred C

There's always two sides to a story:

Side A - I sent money for a card and didn't receive it.
Side B - I sent the card in the mail.

In a hobby where lots of deals are made there will always be people that come to the rescue of someone that is accused of wrong doing or there will be someone to jump in and defend the buyer of the card. There will be people that will say "what a stand-up guy (or gal)" the buyer/seller are.

Who's the winner here? The person that gets the most posts defending them?

I'd be willing to bet that the card shows up and both parties will feel pretty bad about this thread. The original poster will feel bad because they started the thread and the buyer will feel bad for threatening the seller with calling the sellers local law enforcement.

I don't know how things are done in Canada but I'm sure there has got to be a way to get proof of shipment to a US destination. If it costs more then that's just a cost of doing business and that cost should be passed on to the buyer that should understand this when they purchase the card.

At a minimum I get a receipt from my local post office that at least indicates the date, time and postal code to which the package was shipped. I keep that receipt until I have confirmation that the buyer received their item(s).

Anyone want to start a pool and see what date the card shows up? From what I've read the buyer is a stand-up hobbyist that will tell us.

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Posted By: joe

As a buyer and seller on ebay, the buyer has the responsibility to buy the insurance. I have sold different ways, I put shipping info in the auction and offer insurance as an option. Lately, I have been selling with shipping required. But, when you do this your shipping cost looks to high for the item your are selling and some buyers don't read the complete description about the insurance. But in the end I believe it is the buyer responsibility for insurance. Sometimes you have to guess on insurance, $1.30-$7.00 depending on the ending price.
Also, on overseas shipping there can be a problem. I sold some records worldwide, 1 record sold to Australia buyer, when I went to insure the USPS told me it would have to be mailed registered to be insured. The cost was prohibative, insurance would have been $12.00 on a $10.00 item. It cost $10.50 as it was, the lowest cost for shipping overseas.

Joe

Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: Rob

I once won an ebay item (~$40) from a reputable collector and never received it. He asked me to wait a few more days and it never came. He gave me a refund even though he could've just told me to screw off, so I gave him 1/2 the money back and we therefore split the cost.

What I don't understand is how the post office can:
1) be paid money to do a job
2) not do the job (deliver to wrong address, package gets lost, whatever)
3) then tell the customer that (s)he's SOL cuz delivery confirmation or insurance wasn't purchased. why should we have to buy protection in case the post office doesn't do their own job that we're paying them to do in the first place!!!!???!!

and del con doesn't even guarantee you anything. if its delivered to the wrong address, you don't get money back but it'll say it got delivered.

if you go to a restaurant and they bring your meal to the wrong table, dont' you expect a refund? maybe the waitress will tell you "sorry, you should've purchased insurance!!"

to me it seems more reliable to ship UPS, but they're so much more expensive for small items.

Rob