Avatars, links, advertising........CHANGE IN RULES

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Posted By: leon

Okee Dokee....I was away for about 5-6 hours doing some chores. I read the threads about what is and what is not allowed on the site, in the way of advertising. About a week ago I deleted one of Bobby's (hi Bobby) posts because he was touting his site, or more precisely offering to do something (on his site) that was being talked about on this site, and will hopefully be instituted on this site. So I deleted his post (I very rarely delete stuff) and emailed him about it. I got no response which was fine because I took care of it. There have been about a handful of other times I have deleted stuff of Bobby's from this site. This isn't personal. This is something I don't want going on because, as a few pointed out, there are advertising spots for that. When I started the banners I said I would continue to let smaller auctions put up "a" post about their auctions if they want to, when they are near. They still can. Any more than that and I believe it would infringe upon the adverisers rights they get by being a paid advertiser. I really don't like to bring up the banners too much as we have discussed them so many times before. I know the feelings of just about everyone on the subject. To be perfectly honest I feel the site has become better in the last 6 mos...which is when the banners went up. I am biased though so that can be taken with a grain of salt. About a week ago I did amend the rules under the forum rules link. I added a few sentences on this topic. Here it is:

"Links to other sites, except historical or personal, should not be posted on the main page. Members should get permission before posting links on the front page, to any sites that collect monies, in any way. Our banner advertisers have this right to themselves, unless formally approved by the forum owner, in writing. Suggestions to visit sites that collect any monies, in any way, should not be posted as such on the main page."

I think Bobby is a good member of Net54 but I do not want avatars with website addresses. Those will not be allowed anymore....I hope this clears up any misconceptions about posting commercial site links, or references to them, on the main page. To reiterate I don't feel it would be fair to our advertisers to let folks do these things....I am sorry if this upsets anyone....I hope everyone keeps posting ..It's what makes this site very good..best regards

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Posted By: Bobby Binder

Leon,

I am sorry but did not receive your email or deleted it by accident. I have always responded to you in the past and or called when you requested. I will change my avatar if people are taking that much offense to it not a big deal to me.

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Posted By: Steve M.

Go ahead and delete me oh mighty leader.

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Posted By: leon

You need to put your full name by your posts or your wish will come true....again, nothing personal...You are welcome to speak your piece but we need to know who you are....thanks much

edited to say "thanks" to Bobby for not taking it personally....I appreciate it.....

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Posted By: Bobby Binder

Leon,

What is to take personal I am the only one here who has, excuse me had one that represented a business. There is no one else here that does is there? So of course I don't feel singled out at all.

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Posted By: Steve f

Leon,

At one time the patients ran the asylum here, but I for one see that slipping away. This RULE change is profound and should be open for discussion. Too dictatorial and abrupt -in my eyse. At jeopardy is the openness of the mbrship. I believe this could be an inflamatory change. Do you see that possibility? Steve F

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Posted By: jay behrens

It's called protecting your revenue stream. It makes sense and I don't have a problem with it. I may not like having ads here, but I am all for Leon doing what he needs to in order to make this site as valuable to his advertisers as possible. Doesn't mean I have to like what he does, but this one is no brainer and shouldn't need any discussion. You can prolly thank Bobby for this unilateral decision since he has basically taken advantage of Leon's good will and pushed it too far.

Leon tried to do things that most of the people on the board want, but he is also going to make decisions that may not be popular because he is going to want to maximize the amount of money he can make on this site while maintaining knowledge base.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Bobby Binder

Jay,

You have no idea what has ever transpired in conversations between me and Leon and for you to say that I have taken advantage of Leon is out of place and uncalled. Every time Leon has requested something from me I have complied to his wishes. My icon is not competitive with any of the current advertisers until a site that offers pricing starts paying.

Or is this like the NFL and what they did to Brian Urlacher? Because I displayed an icon that is not part of the sponsership. So my choices are only limited now to Mastro, Sportscardlink, GAI, etc... That seems fair so everyone on this board should have to change their icon to an advertiser and nothing else.

Why don't you follow suit and change your and endorse one of the companies that pays to be here.

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Posted By: Joann

I'm not sure what to make of this one Leon. You know I hold you in the highest regard both as a person and as to the way you moderate this board.

But this one feels like the slippery slope that several of us feared when the banner ads were first installed. I think you've done a great job in allowing threads and posts that are unfavorable to advertisers to be freely written and retained on the board.

Here, though, is the first case that I can see that truly restricts content that is contrary to the interests of the advertisers - not any one advertiser, but their interests as a group.

I have objected here in the past to Bobby's use of this forum to promote his site at seemingly every opportunity, and can see where that kind of activity could really be abused by someone such that some restrictions become necessary. That kind of conduct would probably eventually be limited even without banner advertisers. But I've also noticed that he has cut way back on this. I thought his thread about the card restoration site was in good faith and a contribution to the board and hobby.

Yet that post would violate the new rule as written, because the site linked collects money. Any links to ebay auctions, Mastro or REA auctions, etc would also violate the new rule as these sites also collect money. Links to insurance providers, MJRoop boxes and all kinds of things would similarly be banned according to the rule.

I have no doubt that the new rule does and did not intend to prohibit links of this kind, but the rule as written does just that.

It seems like there is a distinction between what the advertisers get - their graphic ads prominently featured at the top of the page so that anyone even visiting the site will see them - and having plain (non-graphic) links to sites contained within threads so that a person has to specifically click on and read the thread to even see the links.

I agree that peppering many threads with promotional comments or links will blur this distinction, but other than that there appears to be a true difference between banner ads and site links.

Again, for emphasis, the new rule targets and prohibits content strictly on the basis of its adversity to the interests of the advertising group. The slippery slope is starting to feel more slippery.

Although I understand the basis for the new rule and the behavior it is trying to modify, it really seems to me like it is a clear step foward in a new direction.

I'm nowhere near wise enough to know how the various interests should be sorted out, and once again find reason to be grateful that I don't have the moderator's job to have to figure it all out.

Just my two cents worth. Sorry for the long post.

Joann

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

I chuckle when you say you find yourself agreeing with everything Joann says-- because I feel exactly the same way. She is the voice of wisdom and good sense on every subject. So take heed on this thread too-- she put things really well, and I won't repeat all of it--

But I too think this one goes a little too far in restricting content. The difference between a flashing banner ad and an embedded link in a single message is profound, and should be enough for your advertisers.

Bobby's posts constitute a gray area that you can deal with in your own way. (He should become an official banner advertiser, probably.)

I do dislike the idea that a person couldn't post a link that recommends a favorite hobby site -- as long as he or she has no monetary connection with it. If that is not what the policy implies, then maybe you could clarify it for us--

Best regards,
Tim

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Posted By: leon

Thanks for the feedback. I have taken the rule OUT of the rules page that I made. It was meant to curb a particular situation and was probably too far reaching. I NEVER want to forbid doing things that help each other. I do feel I have some responsibility to the advertisers and try to keep that in mind when allowing the overt advertising on the main page, or the covert advertising that has been done (my opinion only). I made the rule so there could be no one saying "well, there is no rule against it". However by making a rule it could prohibit some good help. I had ABSOLUTLEY NO ISSUE with Bobby posting the card restoration site as a subject for debate. I do have an issue with anyone continually doing things to promote commercial websites on the main page. In Bobby's defense he has always been polite and done everything I have ever asked him to do concerning posting. It is very difficult to try to do things and appease everyone. The rule is gone and I will take the issues on a case by case basis. I am sorry if I offended anyone. I truly want as open a forum as possible with the very least censoring as possible. If I didn't then we wouldn't be having this discussion now. Thanks for the reality check my friends.....take care

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Posted By: barrysloate

Just to play devil's advocate, and forgetting Leon's position for a moment...if you were a paying advertiser, and you saw that someone could promote their business by posting a link on the main page, isn't it possible you would drop the banner ad and spend a little bit more time posting, with the goal of finding an opportune time to conveniently add your link? I think paid advertisers have rights too. Whether they belong on the board or not is worth debating, but at the moment they are alive and well (and paying their monthly fee).

Edited to add this is less relevant as Leon was posting at the same time I was.

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Posted By: Bobby Binder

Leon,

So does this mean I am allowed to have my Avatar back again or am I still in violation of something?

Maybe we can start a new thing where the members can make some money for advertising other companies in their Avatars..just kidding hope you see that.

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Posted By: leon

Barry thanks for the understanding....you hit the nail on the head. Bobby, I still feel the website in your avatar is promoting your website...Why don't you come up with a cool one that doesn't have your website address in it and we will be good. Now if you want to pay like the other advertisers we can talk about it....but I don't believe it's fair to them for you to do that. I hope you understand and it's not personal. For the record there have been about a handful of other folks I have asked not to post their links and so forth too. I am only singling you out as we are speaking about it now. If anyone wants to know the others I have emailed about it in the past they can email me. I don't wish to make it too public and every single person has been very understanding.....take care

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Posted By: Joann

And that, Leon, is why you are such a great moderator. Thank you. I didn't think you intended to throw such a wide net and stated that in my original post. I am much more comfortable with you addressing conduct that approaches abuse of the main forum on a case by case basis. I understand this just makes more work for you, but would rather have you apply your good sense to each case than implement blanket restrictions.

And Barry, you make some good points that I had considered. I even wondered if paid advertiser status would give the advertiser free rein to insert graphics, links and promo comments into threads at will.

The bottom line is that this is all very easy to see but complicated to structure. On the one hand, if I were an advertiser I would definitely wonder if I wouldn't be better off spraying buckshot in the main forum with my links and banners for free. On the other hand, there seems to be a strong feeling among participants that we don't want the main forum to become over-commercialized. On the third hand, we want people to be able to post links to helpful sites - even if commercial - in good faith.

See the problem? Already too many hands! lol. So while it seems easy to see when something has run amok, it's much harder to try to articulate the differences and boundaries.

This is why I'm both relieved and grateful that Leon is willing to spend his time lassoing in those that stray too far on an individual basis. It seems that any set standard to try to gage behavior would be restrictive to someone that doesn't or shouldn't need the restriction.

Thanks again Leon.

Joann

(Oh, and to Tim too for your kind comments about wisdom and good sense. Although I think I could show that to a few people here in GR and they would fall over from either utter disbelief or hysterical laughter.)

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Posted By: Anonymous

.

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

Basically, and again, what Joann said--

There is clearly potential for misusing the main board for advertising purposes, and I understand the need for diligence, Leon. Maybe any posts by people connected to the firms being advertised should be removed (except for the one free auction ad)-- but for those (like me, obviously) who are entrepreneurially challenged and don't draw a paycheck from a hobby source, placing links we like in messages doesn't seem too bad, and I'm glad there's no prohibition about it.

Anyway, I second Joann's comments about the high quality of the moderator dude --

Tim



PS: Joann, thank you, thank you-- you have done my increasingly curmudgeonly English-professor soul a lot of good by using and spelling the phrase "free rein" correctly. I don't know when the last time I saw it without a "g" (although in thirty more years we'll be mostly seeing "free rain," LOL).

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Posted By: Anthony

Hang in there Leon- I don't think anyone realizes what a headache being a moderator is until they actually do it- sometimes it must feel like this

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Posted By: rand

after reading all this, i am amazed at how strong the opinions are about Leon's course of action. I am new and started a post 2 weeks ago (about PSA) and Leon emailed me immediately, after we had spoken, all went well. Everybody on this board has a strong opinion, the one thing most will agree on is that they do not want Leon's job. How any one person has the interest to read all the postings is a gift of patience. This forum is a priveledge, not a right, and Leon has to find the boundaries for every posting. I believe the best approach is the direct communication with the poster and to solve it between them. Leon has certainly done well in this department. If a member is trying to take advantage by promoting their website, i guess it all depends on the context of the thread, then it should be monitored closely. If a link has no real value in the thread, just a way to advertise, then its covert and should be locked.

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Posted By: leon

That's awesome....I showed my wife. We both laughed. If ya can't laugh at yourself then you need a reality check. I laugh at myself all of the time. We are all just big kids anyway. I get to be the ring leader and I am humbled by it....If it weren't a labor of love I certainly wouldn't be doing it....THANKS again for the kind words and the humor...I love it.....Here's one....

Last night I was killing a big ant bed in our front yard. I poured some gas on it. It lit up. It wasn't going good enough so me, in my infinite wisdom, poured more gas on the fire straight from the gas can. Well, guess what? The fire made a streak right up the gas can spout...The gas can lit on fire. I was holding it and threw it. The gas went all over me. It was still burning so I had about 5 places on me that were on fire. Fortunately I brushed it all off real quick and barely got a hair (I still have hair in a few places besides my head but won't go there too much) burnt and put it all out. I still can't find one of my shoes that flew off when I was hopping around. I know it's in the bushes somewhere. To see me jumping around on fire had to be either funny or scary. After the fact it's funny...while burning it wasn't so funny....all is well that ends well.....including this advertising issue....

edited spelling but I am still not too good at it...

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Posted By: jay behrens

Bobby, it doesn't matter if your avatar icon was competitve or not with another advertiser. The fact is, you were trying to advertise on this board without having to pay for like the legitmate advertisers on here do. Grow up and get some ethics. You show every time that you are nothing but a greedy scumbag.

I don't really care what has transpired between you and Leon. The perception here is that you are continually taking advantage of Leon's good will. Leon shouldn't have to constantly ask you to stop doing things.

Notice how Bobby is always looking for every loophole possible to get free advertising. As a business, it's a good thing to get free advertising when possible, but he has crossed the line into being a constant pain in the ass about it. Asking for the avatar back truly is a classless act and says volumes about his character.

I await is next attempt to try and get more free advertising on here.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: dennis

were they fire ants?

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Posted By: leon

I don't think they are your classic fire ants as they are small...but they can still bite the Dickens out of you...I know from experience. I think they might be called "red ants"....and in a little while I will try to find my other shoe....

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Leon, that story is priceless.

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Posted By: Anthony

Leon, it sounds like you came very close to winning a Darwin award there. I'd have to get seriously hammered after something like that......

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Posted By: barrysloate

Leon- you also came dangerously close to ending up in the emergency room. Thank god it wasn't as bad as it could have been. Gasoline and fire don't go together well.

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Posted By: Steve M.

I do not know Bobby Binder. I do subscribe to his service.

I do Know Ted Golden. He's a fine, fine fellow so this is not personal.

But, is there a double standard here?

Re: Spreadsheet suggestions? April 22 2007, 2:19 PM


"Mr. Binder,
Please do not make statements with regard to my company and what we have and have not done. To clarify your point, we have discussed client based relationships with many auction houses and most of the major grading companies. We were not prepared to engage in the type of deals you have engaged in. Conversely, I am sure those companies would say they were not prepared to enter into a deal with us. We will not forge any partnerships that provide us with a conflict of interest. We provide client based services, in exchange for a fee, to everyone listed at[delete link] We remain open to working with all industry companies and welcome the opportunity for you to work with them as well.

Kindest Regards,
Theodore Golden
President/CEO
CardPricer.com - The Web's Most Comprehesive Price Guide"

Edited to delete link.

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Posted By: leon

Please email me privately. I asked you to yesterday and you didn't, I believe. I am in the middle of addressing your issue, 10 minutes before you posted this....privately for now with one of the parties involved. We have to hurry though because I am getting hungry and so is my family.

edited to add that the link has been taken out of the other thread per my request.....now the only link is here, how ironic is that?

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Posted By: Dylan

Leon I think your original rule was fine as long as you add that links as long as links are posted in good faith and not with the purpose to garner free advertising. I think we all know when someone posts a legitimate link and when someone is trying to score some free advertising.

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Posted By: Mark T

can post in Vintage Links like everyone else who has a link to their web site. That way it would be fair to everyone since basically those sites also have cards for sale in them.


And to put this all to rest, Bobby can just buy a banner...

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Leon, will you be attending this year?

http://www.burningman.com/

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Posted By: leon

Most likely Bobby will be an advertiser in the next few weeks. As for the Burning Man....dunno....it says there are no rules.....sounds like this freaking board and I am not sure I can handle another "free for all"
best
leon

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Posted By: Ed

Leon: I am a newbie but I appreciate your sense of humor. It can't be easy under the circumstances. (I have no advertising - not lobbying)

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Stick a gas can in that guy's hand at the top of that site -- that could be you....

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Posted By: jay behrens

Burning Man is passe. When it was a neat little gathering on the beach in SF, it was a blast. Now it's a commercial monster that's expense and a pain in the ass to properly plan for and have fun at. I have a friend that runs the showers in Toonville. Not sure if he sets up anymore. Haven't talked to him in about 5 years. The whole party in the desert thing is just miserable and sucks.

Now you want to same type of feeling without the expense and commercialism, go to The Gathering of the Rainbow Family of Living Light, better known as The Rainbow Gathering. It's free. The only thing that is asked is that you bring something to share. Sugar and toilet paper are always in high demand. You also need to pack out what you bring in.

Food is free and there is something for everyone. When I go, I set up at Lovin' Ovens. They do all the baked goods like bread, cookies, pizza, etc. The ovens are made from mud and wood fired. There is food for everyone form carnivores to vegans. One of the funniest camps is called Nic at Nite. It's the cigarette camp. Their motto is, Got cig, share a cig. Need a cig, we got a cig.

If anyone wants more info, I can give you a link to site that will give more info.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jay, that sounds like a cult -- will there be any Kool Aid served?

Also, I don't think the icon for that get together is a guy on fire with a gas can in his hand.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Burning Man is clut The Rainbow Gathering is just a bunch of hippies getting together to pray for world peace and better world to live in. Alcohol is not allowed, except in A-camp. Drunks prove to be too much of a problem, so they get segregated from the main party.

Jay

I never someone high on pot that wanted to kick my ass

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

"The Rainbow Gathering is just a bunch of hippies getting together to pray for world peace and better world to live in."

I thought that was what the Network 54 dinner at the National was for?

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Posted By: jay behrens

I thought the Net54 dinner was were we get to physicaly beat up each other instead of just verbally

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: David Bowden

I met my wife at a Rainbow Gathering about 15 years ago. Last time I was at one I stumbled across it taking the wife and kids camping. Sorry for posting off topic. Being a newbie I'm trying to steer clear of the wrath of any of you. lol
David

edited to add name

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Posted By: barrysloate

The Net54 dinner is a bunch of yuppies getting together to support buying baseball cards. Hippies would smoke them!

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Posted By: boxingcardman

Like I always tell my wife, my people paid it forward and did 40 years in the desert so I wouldn't have to. My idea of roughing it is a hotel with no mini-bar.

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Posted By: JimB

I have been to one Rainbow Gathering. It was in Sumpter National Forest in South Carolina around 1990. As we arrived a kind hippie approached and said,
"Welcome home brother. Got a smoke?" I am still trying to figure out the subtle meaning there after all these years.
JimB

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Posted By: barrysloate

I have never heard of a Rainbow Gathering. Can somebody fill me in in 25 words or less?

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Sounds like a Grateful Dead concert with no music.

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Posted By: jay behrens

At The Gathering, everyone is greeted with "Welcome home". The Nic at Nite camp is usually pretty close to Welcome Home camp, which is the main entrance.

It's hard to sum up in 25 words or less, so here's the wiki write up. It's pretty spot on as to what is going on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_gathering>

Spring counsel hasn't been held yet, all that is know about the location for this year is that it will be in AR, OK or TX. Spring counsel will narrow down which state and then a scouting party will find a location that handle 20k-30k people.

Forgot to mention, there is lots of music. The drums can be heard non-stop, except during the time of silence to focus on world peace. The drumming circles are awesom. I have tapes of some and they make for great ambient music and I also use them in my techno/rave remixes.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: JimB

It is a lot like a Grateful Dead show without the music. In fact, there were a lot of off-tour tour heads who would spend the time between GD tours at Rainbow Gatherings hanging out and making stuff to sell on tour.
JimB

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Posted By: B.C.Daniels

how many of these have you been to? sounds like all of them!

BcD

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Posted By: jay behrens

only been to a couple. Wish I could make it every year, but it's just not possible on my budget.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.