The All Century Team - A Retrospective

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

In 1999, a group of baseball players was honored as the best Major League Baseball players of the twentieth century. The All Century Team was elected primarily by baseball fans, who voted in 2 players at each infield position, 9 outfielders, and 6 pitchers. An "oversight committee" then added 5 additional players (Wagner, Musial, Spahn, Mathewson, Grove) who did not receive enough fan votes to make the team initially.

I have listed below the players at each position who received at least 100,000 fan votes, with the total number of votes cast for each.

I thought it would be interesting to re-visit the selections that were made for this team, particularly in light of subsequent career developments for those who were current players at the time of election (Clemens, Griffey, Ripken, McGwire).

It is of course difficult to pick the "best" at each position, especially when the selections span 100 years of baseball history. Anyhow, my thoughts are:

- I'd take Jimmie Foxx over Mark McGwire at first base. I think McGwire got elected mainly because his 70-homer season was still fresh in people's minds.
- Maybe George Brett over Brooks Robinson at third base, because of his hitting ability. Tough call there.
- Bonds over Griffey in the outfield, based on the position Bonds has attained on the all time home run list since 1999.
- Everything else seems about right.

Any other thoughts?


ALL CENTURY TEAM
* = elected by fans
# = selected by oversight committee

Catchers:

1. Johnny Bench (1,010,403) *
2. Yogi Berra (704,208) *
3. Carlton Fisk (322,384)
4. Roy Campanella (247,909)
5. Josh Gibson (233,288)

First Basemen:

1. Lou Gehrig (1,207,992) *
2. Mark McGwire (517,181) *
3. Jimmie Foxx (351,488)
4. Harmon Killebrew (185,622)
5. Eddie Murray (161,564)
6. Hank Greenberg (114,317)
7. Willie McCovey (106,717)

Second Basemen:

1. Jackie Robinson (788,116) *
2. Rogers Hornsby (630,761) *
3. Joe Morgan (608,660)
4. Rod Carew (430,267)

Shortstops:

1. Cal Ripken, Jr. (669,033) *
2. Ernie Banks (598,168) *
3. Ozzie Smith (589,025)
4. Honus Wagner (526,740) #
5. Robin Yount (134,655)
6. Luis Aparicio (129,328)

Third Basemen:

1. Mike Schmidt (855,654) *
2. Brooks Robinson (761,700) *
3. George Brett (656,511)
4. Eddie Mathews (174,529)
5. Paul Molitor (160,271)

Outfielders:

1. Babe Ruth (1,158,044) *
2. Hank Aaron (1,156,782) *
3. Ted Williams (1,125,583) *
4. Willie Mays (1,115,896) *
5. Joe DiMaggio (1,054,423) *
6. Mickey Mantle (988,168) *
7. Ty Cobb (777,056) *
8. Ken Griffey, Jr. (645,389) *
9. Pete Rose (629,742) *
10. Roberto Clemente (582,937)
11. Stan Musial (571,279) #
12. Joe Jackson (326,415)
13. Reggie Jackson (296,039)
14. Tony Gwynn (232,476)
15. Carl Yastrzemski (222,082)
16. Frank Robinson (220,226)
17. Rickey Henderson (180,940)
18. Barry Bonds (173,279)
19. Lou Brock (131,361)

Pitchers:

1. Nolan Ryan (992,040) *
2. Sandy Koufax (970,434) *
3. Cy Young (867,523) *
4. Roger Clemens (601,244) *
5. Bob Gibson (582,031) *
6. Walter Johnson (479,279) *
7. Greg Maddux (431,751)
8. Steve Carlton (405,365)
9. Satchel Paige (399,657)
10. Warren Spahn (337,215) #
11. Tom Seaver (330,219)
12. Whitey Ford (253,120)
13. Bob Feller (252,115)
14. Christy Mathewson (249,747) #
15. Jim Palmer (158,266)
16. Grover Cleveland Alexander (151,255)
17. Dennis Eckersley (143,710)
18. Lefty Grove (142,169) #
19. Dizzy Dean (130,389)
20. Juan Marichal (122,366)
21. Rollie Fingers (106,416)

edited for spelling

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Posted By: peter chao

All in all, looks like a great team. A few changes, I wold rank Joe Morgan ahead of Hornsby because Morgan was a better fielder and could steal bases. Hornsby could hit but wasn't anything special in the field or in the basepaths.

I don't see how Nolan Ryan ended up being the best pitcher, I would drop him way down and move up Lefty Grove.

Also, I would move Pete Rose down and Roberto Clemente up.

Peter

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Posted By: Bob

Mark McGwire the 2nd greatest 1b of all time? What a joke. He was below average in the field and his sole claim to fame was the 70hr season which was enhanced by steroids and/or HGH.
Why only four second basemen and six shortstops? I'd have to include Napoleon Lajoie and Eddie Collins in the 2b group.
Greg Maddux better than Christy and Lefty??? What a joke.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Uh, Nolan Ryan ahead of Walter Johnson and Cy Young? And most others on that list???? Honus Wagner behind Cal Ripken?

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Ripken Banks and Ozzie over Honus Wagner? NO.

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Posted By: Jason L

Hey, they're both cheaters, but Jackson was better
besides, Pete had to wear shoes to be as good as he was!

Yes, Ozzie Smith is my favorite player, but even I would rank him 4th on that list...Honus, Banks, Ripken, Ozzie would be more appropriate - though I would like to think Ripken and Ozzie would be a tie...

Oh, and Eddie Mathews over Brooksie

Barry Bonds and McGwire really don't qualify since they weren't actually human

Really not sure Josh Gibson should be coming in 4th at Catcher, either...

nice question/thread - thanks!

edited to add: Gwynn really doesn't belong on that OF'ers list...that's kinda silly...and so is Molitor

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Posted By: Joann

This list is really fascinating to me. It is perfect evidence of how fans are biased by players they personally recall. Actually, bias is not even strong enough - more like domination. The list is overwhelmingly players that played during the time of the survey or likely within the voters' lifetimes.

Look at the vintage (defined loosely - no real date) names. Only five were voted in by fans:

Ruth
Gehrig
Cobb
Cy Young
Walter Johnson

These were huge, huge names. Not just for their time but for all-time, which is probably why people knew to list them.

The vintage players that got >100K votes but not enough to make the team:

Matty
Grover C Alex
Wagner

Again, very big names and probably included by name recognition only.

So although interesting, the result is meaningless in terms of any measure of best of all time, etc. It is far more sensitive to the timing of the survey (and who is alive and for what time periods) than any objective measure of greatness.

So 100 years from now, in 2099, who makes the list? Probably the same 8 vintage guys, give or take. But who else? Who will have the huge name recognition then? My guess:

DiMag
Mays
Williams
Mantle
Ryan
Clemens
Maybe Bonds

But I think that in 2099 no one will even know who the heck Mike Schmidt and Bob Gibson even were, despite their designation as "All 20th Century". They will be the Crawfords and Chesbros of their day, and the list will be again dominated by players from about 2040 and forward.

Joann

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Posted By: Bill

I was never a big fan of things like this, similar to the A.S. game where fans have such a large say in the outcome. Granted, it keeps fans interested as well as makes them feel part of the game I guess. However, and I think I speak for many here, there are too many fans who vote that have no idea what they are actually on. Such as the all star game where they vote for a player only because they know his name or he was good in previous years, but not the current one. With something like the All-Century team, I'm sure MANY people recognized the names of all the players, but had absolutely no clue about many of them outside of 25 years ago. OK, I'm done venting....

Change your socks, drink water, and drive on.

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Posted By: S. Gross

It always blows my mind that whenever a "best 2b of ______" is listed, Eddie Collins hardly ever makes the list.

Eddie Collins was the BEST second baseman in the game's history, IMHO, NO Doubt, EOM, etc.

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Posted By: Mike

Most of us know, but many people forget that Foxx was also a fantastic catcher, and was an excellent third baseman as well. Probably could have made the hall of fame at one of the three spots. can any one of us imagine McGuire at third base ??? Or catcher ? One could argue that there were a few other first baseman as competent as Foxx, but certainly not Mr. Steroid. One more thing, how many home runs would Foxx have hit, if he had access to the juice?

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Posted By: peter chao

Mike,

The presence of old XX already scared the living daylights out of pitchers. I cannot imagine Foxx bulked up. He would make Hulk Hogan look like a pipsqueak.

Peter

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Posted By: George Dreher

Move Josh Gibson into 2nd place behind Bench. Consider placing Piazza at the bottom.

Take McGwire off the list.

Put Hornsby first at 2ND followed by Morgan, Robinson, Carew

Place Wagner first at SS followed by Alex Rodriguez, Ernie Banks and the rest at the bottom

Move George Brett and Eddie Matthews ahead of Brooks Robinson

The rest should look like this:

Outfielders:

1. Babe Ruth (1,158,044) *
2. Ty Cobb
3. Joe Jackson
4. Barry Cheater
5. Hank Aaron (1,156,782) *
6. Ted Williams (1,125,583) *
7. Willie Mays (1,115,896) *
8. Joe DiMaggio (1,054,423) *
9. Mickey Mantle (988,168) *
10. Roberto Clemente (582,937)
11. Stan Musial (571,279) #
12. Reggie Jackson (296,039)
13. Carl Yastrzemski (222,082)
14. Frank Robinson (220,226)

Pitchers:

1. Walter Johnson
2. Christy Mathewson
3. Cy Young
4. Satchel Paige
5. Lefty Grove
6. Grover Alexander
7. Warren Spahn
8. Roger Clemens
9. Sandy Koufax
10. Nolan Ryan
11. Babe Ruth

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Posted By: Mike

And another second baseman who always falls through the cracks? Gehringer....great second baseman.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Ripken was a very good SS, but that's it. If it wasn't for The Streak, no one would consider him for this list. He's right there with McGwire among the most overrated modern players. Also need to bump Jr and Rose off the OF list.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

A popularity poll results in an answer that is a mile wide and an inch deep.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Nolan Ryan ahead of Tom Seaver? Gibson?

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Peter is right about Wagner....

From reading what players said about who the best player was in baseball, players who played with and against Ruth, Cobb, Hornsby, Speaker... the best player of all time would be Hans Wagner. All of 'us' think about Ruth being the best, or Cobb... we are mistaken. He could out field, out run, out hit... he was the man.

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Posted By: steve

Fans want drama. Fans want domination. No other pitcher was so dominant for so long as Nolan Ryan. His 7 no-hitters are a record that just blows me away. Here is the kicker, drum roll, what if he got to pitch on a higher mound as did Koufax ??? How many no-hitters then ? Contrary, how many fewer no-no's would Koufax have pitched on the new lowered mound in 1969 , after he retired ?

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Posted By: peter chao

Steve,

It makes no sense, during his career Nolan Ryan never won a Cy Young award for being the best pitcher in his league. How can he even be considered among the best pitchers for an entire century.

Peter

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

The simple way to compare Koufax to Ryan is to note how they compared to their contemporaries: Ryan's lifetime ERA was .37 better than the other pitchers in baseball during his career; Koufax's was .87 better -- that is a huge disparity. For reference, Christy Mathewson's was only .75 better than the rest of the league.

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Posted By: steve

I did not say "best" pitcher. I said most dramatic and most dominant pitcher - aka what most fans want to see. Besides his no-no's, what other contemporary pitcher stacks up to the prices of Ryan's cards ? None. Furthermore, the Cy Young award is biased to pitchers on winning teams - 1973 Ryan won over 20 games for the lowly Angels, Topped Koufax' single season strikeout record, AND had not one but 2 no-no's..........still didn't get the Cy Young....Palmer did for Baltimore.......MOST amazing overlook in sports history!!!

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Posted By: howard

Ryan was often not even the best pitcher on his own team. Throughout his career he was outpitched in various seasons by JR Richard, Joe Niekro, Frank Tanana, Ed Figueroa, Mike Scott, Bob Knepper and Vern Ruhle. I'm sure there are others but I'm too lazy to look them up. Yes, these pitchers were all good or even great for a few years but to be the all-time greatest you should not be outpitched that often by anybody.

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Posted By: Ken McMillan

You left Ryne Sandberg off of the list for 2nd basemen......If you recall the string of errorless games by a secend sacker. Go Cubs

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Posted By: Mark L

I can't imagine a better double play combination than Wagner and Hornsby. Arguably the two best right handed hitters in history, they won 16 batting titles between them. (and it was against National League pitching!) And Wagner was the best fielder of the deadball era, when defense meant something. While people don't remember Hornsby for his glove, we tend to forget that he was good enough to play shortstop for the first few years of his Cardinal career.

And where is Hubbell on the list? It's astounding that pitchers like Hubbell and Grove racked up any numbers at all in their era, when the baseball itself was on steroids.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Obviously, Ryan isn't the best pitcher ever, but he was a fine pitcher. He turned in the innings and had a fine lifetime ERA. You can't pitch as many years as he did with a lifetime 3.19 ERA and not be darned good. He pitched for many marginal teams. I'd pick Seaver as the best pitcher of the generation, and comparable to Mathewson.

In my opinion, Ripken Jr is overrated.

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Posted By: Bob

1. Ripken is waaaay overrated.
2. Wagner was not the greatest player of all time. If Ruth wasn't the greatest slugger and greatest hitter, he was close. Then consider that until he left the mound he was the greatest left handed pitcher in the American League if not all of baseball. That's what makes Babe the greatest who ever lived.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Either Ruth or Cobb were the greatest ever. Regarding Cobb, consider the following: in 1909, Cobb led the league in batting average, on base percentage, slugging percentage, runs, hits, total bases, home runs, RBI and stolen bases. Wrap your head around those stats: he was the fastest, the most powerful, the most resourceful and the best hitter in the league. That will never occur again.

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Posted By: Mark L

Baseball has changed over the years. Wagner was the greatest player of the deadball era, an era of "inside baseball" that required different skills than were necessary in later decades. In order to prove that Cobb or Ruth or DiMaggio or Bonds is better, one would have to demonstrate that later eras brought to light a truer or a greater form of baseball.

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Posted By: Max Weder

Further to the post on Foxx playing 3rd and catcher as well, Mark McGwire actually played 24 games at third base in his first two years in the majors http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mcgwima01.shtml

He was of course considerably smaller at that time.

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Posted By: Dylan

i dont want to get too deep into it but MORE respect for Grover Alexander, check out his career... amazing

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Posted By: Mike

McGwire at 3rd. 9 errors in 24 games ? I'll take Foxx anytime.

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

Thanks to all who took a whack at this. I agree with those who indicated that the voting was a bit skewed towards more recent players. The early part of the century definitely seems to be under-represented. Wagner should be ranked higher, as should Mathewson and Grove, although all three were included on the team by the special panel who recognized the oversight.

Nolan Ryan's status as an all-time great is often questioned because of his modest winning percentage (324-292, or .526), as well as other things that folks here have pointed out. Still, his longevity was remarkable (second only to Cy Young in games started), and he does hold the all-time record for fewest hits allowed per nine innings (6.56). He was elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame in his first year of eligibility, with 98.8% of the vote.

Second basemen: Nap Lajoie, Eddie Collins, and Charlie Gehringer finished 5th, 6th, and 7th, respectively, in the voting. All received less than 100,000 votes.

The complete list of 100 candidates from which the team was selected can be seen here:

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/legendary/limc100.shtml

I remember well the ceremony before Game 2 of the 1999 World Series in Atlanta when all 18 of the living players selected for the All Century Team assembled on a stage to be honored. That would be Aaron, Banks, Bench, Berra, Clemens, Gibson, Griffey, Koufax, Mays, McGwire, Ripken, Brooks Robinson, Rose, Ryan, Schmidt, Spahn, and Ted Williams (81 years old). Seeing all those great players together was for me a very moving and memorable moment. And I must admit that seeing Pete Rose in a baseball stadium, 10 years after his banishment from the game, receiving a sustained standing ovation just about broke me up. Despite his personal indiscretions, his greatness as a baseball player cannot be denied.

Some interesting anecdotes about the All Century Team ceremony can be found here:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/1999/1024/132489.html

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Posted By: steve

A list of some of the MLB records held by Nolan Ryan...


Most strikeouts, lifetime: 5714

Longest service: 27 years

Most no-hitters, career: 7

Most strikeouts, season: 383 (AL, 1973)

Most seasons, 200+ strikeouts: 15

Most seasons, 300+ strikeouts: 6

Most consecutive strikouts, game: 8

Most low-hit (0/1 hit) games, career: 16

Most low-hit (0/1 hit) games, season: 3 (1973)

Most walks, career: 2795

Most seasons leading majors, walks: 8

Most strikouts per 9 innings, season: 11.48

Most strikouts per 9 innings, career: 9.57 (as of 1990)

Fewest hits allowed per 9 innings, season: 5.26 (1972)

Fewest hits allowed per 9 innings, career: 6.41 (as of 1990)

Oldest to pitch a no-hitter: 44 (5/1/91)

Fastest pitch (as listed in the Guiness Book Of World Records): 101.9 MPH

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Posted By: howard

A couple of those records are either old or inaccurate. Ryan no longer holds the record for most k's per nine innings for a season and eight is not the consecutive k record. Very impressive nevertheless. Kerry Wood might hold the k rate record and Tom Seaver k'd the last ten Padres in a 1971 game.

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Posted By: peter chao

Steve,

Nolan Ryan was the undisputed king of the strikeout artists, however, that is quite different than saying he was one of the top pitchers of the century. Tom Seaver came up around the same time Nolan Ryan did and was a much better all around pitcher than Ryan, yet he did not get much support for being among the best of the century.

Now if Ryan had come up with the Mets a little bit earlier, Topps might have created one of the best pitching rookie cards ever. Imagine Ryan and Seaver on a 1967 high number rookie card.

Peter

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Posted By: misunderestimated

Slight mix up in threads...this is from Brian H....



Catchers:

1. Josh Gibson
2, Yogi Berra (704,208) *
3 Johnny Bench (1,010,403) *
4. Mickey Cochrane
5. Bill Dickey
6. Roy Campanella
---

First Basemen:

1. Lou Gehrig (1,207,992)
2. Jimmie Foxx (351,488)
3. Buck Leonard
4. McGwire (no real penalty for whatever performance enhancing drugs did to his career – really would only seem to apply to a few years anyway)
5. Eddie Murray (161,564)
6. Frank Thomas

Second Basemen:

1. Eddie Collins
2. Rogers Hornsby (630,761) *
3. Joe Morgan (608,660)
4. Lajoie
5. Gehringer
6. Jackie Robinson (788,116) *

Shortstops:

1. Honus Wagner (526,740) #
2. Arky Vaughan
3. Cal Ripken, Jr. (669,033) *
2. Ernie Banks (598,168) *
5. JH “Pop” Lloyd

Third Basemen:
1. Mike Schmidt (855,654) *
2. George Brett (656,511)
3 Frank “HR” Baker
4. Eddie Mathews (174,529)
5. Pie Traynor

Outfielders:

1. Babe Ruth (1,158,044) *
2 Ty Cobb
3. O Charleston
4 Willie Mays (1,115,896) *
5 Ted Williams (1,125,583) *
6. Hank Aaron (1,156,782) *
7. Mickey Mantle (988,168) *
8 Stan Musial
9 Tris Speaker
10 Barry Bonds
11. Ken Griffey, Jr. (645,389) *
12 Frank Robinson
13. Rickey Henderson
14. Joe DiMaggio (1,054,423)
15. Sam Crawford
16 Mel Ott
17. Rose/Clemente/ Reggie
(I give a bump to CFs because it’s a more valuable position – a good CF is much more valuable than a decent LF or RF)

Pitchers:

1. Walter Johnson (479,279) *
2. Lefty Grove
3. GC Alexander
4. Mathewson
5. S Paige
6 Spahn
7. Seaver
8. Roger Clemens
8. Smokey Joe Williams
9. B. Gibson
10. Bob Feller
11. Eddie Plank
12. Greg Maddux
13. S Carlton
14. Koufax
15. Cy Young (See explanation below)
16. 3 finger Brown
17. R. “Goose” Gossage
-----
Excludes career prior to 1900 (E.g. for Cy Young about 300 Wins!)
Excludes career after 2000 (e.g. for Bonds lots of everything including the bad stuff!)
Note - the list from 1999 really short-changes the old-timers/Negro Leagues (Speaker, Collins, Plank, Charleston, Leonard) and helps out the famous (Joe Jackson & Nolan Ryan) at the expense of the meritorious (egs. Larkin, Gehringer, Cochrane)

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Posted By: howard

Peter, I think Topps recently. printed a Ryan/Seaver Rookie card in their 1967 style. I'd bet you could find one on Ebay right now.

Howard

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Posted By: George Dreher

I don't think there is anyone who can be placed above him at catcher. He has been eclipsed in slugging, but watch the tapes of him catching. He was the greatest defensive catcher ever. One handing every pitch like a human vacuum cleaner. Even one-handing pitches in the dirt that would have gotten by all the others. No one could throw to second with his precision. He used to practice throwing to second on his knees from home plate!

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Posted By: Anonymous

It would be hard to say anyone was a better fielding catcher than Bench in his prime. But that's only part of the equation. Obviously I never saw Josh Gobson (or Biz Mackey either) but they were supposed to be pretty good fielders as well. Gibson is also reputed to be the greatest slugger in the history of the negro leagues.. Berra could hit and field as well and he was an integral part of around 10 world series champions. When you've actually seen a great player like Bench it is hard to believe anyone could have been as good. However, its also a bit unfair to assume that the players you never saw (regrdless of their reputations etc.) were worse.... IROD also was and still is a pretty amazing fielding and throwing backstop.

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Posted By: bob beyerle

You can not have current fans voting for an all time team with players they have seen vs. players they have not seen. No one with a brain can take a vote like that seriously. As is typical of the current MLB M.O., they are trying to "contrive moments" for "store bought" fans, thinking they are playing a part of some "baseball history" which most people have not studied enough to really give an educated opinion on. That said, and my biased opinion aside, Ripken over Wagner? Give me a F.ck.n. break!

edited to say- And I have a LOT of respect for Ripken and what He and his family have done for the game, during amd post career.

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

Can you make a good argument that Ron Santo was a better 3d baseman than Brooks Robinson. It's pretty clear that he was a better hitter than Brooks.

Peter

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

Brooks Robinson had a lifetime fielding percentage of .971 (264 errors in 9196 chances), the highest all-time for third basemen. He batted .267 and hit 268 home runs in 2896 games. He won 16 gold gloves and had 15 All Star appearances.

Ron Santo's lifetime fielding percentage was .954 (327 errors in 7144 chances). He batted .277 and hit 342 home runs in 2243 games. He won 5 gold gloves and had 9 All Star appearances.

It can certainly be argued that Santo was a better hitter than Robinson, but Robinson was so outstanding defensively (remember those spectacular plays during the 1970 World Series) that he is more highly regarded. In the All Century Team voting Robinson even finished ahead of George Brett, who was one of the best hitters of his era.

Here is a series of articles that compares Santo with other third basemen who are currently in the Hall of Fame:

http://mvn.com/mlb-cubs/2007/01/16/why-ron-santo-belongs-in-the-hall-of-fame-part-1/
http://mvn.com/mlb-cubs/2007/01/17/why-ron-santo-belongs-in-the-hall-of-fame-part-2/
http://mvn.com/mlb-cubs/2007/01/18/why-ron-santo-belongs-in-the-hall-of-fame-part-3/

Santo finished highest among Veterans Committee candidates for the Hall of Fame this year, but fell 5 votes short of making the Hall.

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Posted By: Fred C

What you have is a lot of people that know baseball but not the history. There's a lot of people that are avid/rabid fans that don't care about history and that includes the history of baseball. I guess we call those people the collectors of the new and shiney stuff. I wasn't too surprised at the results but when you see Musial rated 11th (with some of the listed players ahead of him) with Nolan Ryan and Cal Ripken rated 1st, you know people that don't know their baseball history voted.

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Posted By: steve

Fred C.

Trivia: What major league pitcher is second only to Cy Young in Games Started, and has the career record for fewest hits per game?

Steve.

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Posted By: peter chao

Steve,

I suppose your going to bring up Nolan Ryan again. He was a great, great pitcher, just not among the all-time greats.

Peter

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Posted By: Mark L

A walk is as good as a hit.

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Posted By: steve

Peter,

I hate to admit, but, if Ryan didn't walk so many, he would be a genuine candidate for "Best Ever." I am 41 yrs. - grew up half hour from Anaheim Stadium - saw Ryan pitch many times - always tried to get right behind Home Plate to watch his incredible fastball explode to the plate with this "hop" to another speed dimension. I was lucky enough to be at the game with my dad when Cal Tech timed his fastball - still in Guiness Book.

I also have full game footage of his 6th no-hitter in 1981 vs. Dodgers - Absolutly, positively, best curveball I have ever seen. Sometimes I hit the replay button several times to watch one particular pitch. I would rank his curveball (in that game) as unquestionably as the best curveball of all time.

Would love to watch the old footage with you guys and see your reactions.

How about a # 1 vote for "All time fan favorite"

Steve

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Posted By: Fred C

Steve,

Who owns the lifetime strikeout record (ok, we all know the answer). If Ryan was dominant and strikeouts added towards that then I would venture to guess that a .526 lifetime win% indicates otherwise. Sure he has the record for most no-hitters but the point is that he must not have been that consistent if he could only manage to win 52.6% of his games. I would definitely vote him one of the more exciting players to watch, but not dominating.

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Posted By: Steve f

Eric, that is one pathetic list. Steve, I've always enjoyed watching the Express. One memory in particular, a young, irate Ventura charged the mound Ryan took him right out effortlessly.

I still find it hard to believe he hadn't won a single Cy Young.

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Posted By: steve

Examine 1973. As a kid I was shattered. Felt rightfully robbed.

Ryan: New single season strikeout record of 383, eclipsing Koufax. Not one, but TWO no-hitters. ERA 2.87 Won 21 games for the Angels who had team win pct. of .488 Also pitched 26 complete games. Would have closed in on 30 Wins if with Baltimore.

Palmer: won 22 games for media darling Orioles with team win pct. of almost .600 No strikeout record. ERA 2.40 No no-hitters. Only 19 complete games.

Palmer won Cy Young ???? Kind of stuff of which Twilight Zone episodes are made.