M116 Blue backgrounds with "over 300 subjects"...

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Posted By: Mark

Has anyone ever seen a blue background card with over 300 subjects back?

I know the answer is probably no but wanted to ask.
Also, they say that back is scarce series. I would take a guess that cards with that back make up for about 10 % of all M116 cards, does anyone have a exact figure. Thanks.

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Posted By: jP

Mark, a good and interesting question. i too am curious as to what the experts of this forum think and the thoughts of other M116 collectors.

I never paid attention really to the backs of my blue backgrounds i will have to check them later.

my collection: http://s102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/obaks/

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Posted By: Mark Tylicki

For those wondering what the back looks like, here's an example:



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MY COLLECTION: http://www.rustywilly.com/MYCOLLECTION.htm

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Posted By: paulstratton

I have 26 blue backgrounds and none of them have a 300 subjects back. Never seen one.

Tim N. and Tbob will hopefully chime in on the pastels with 300 subjects possibilities. Some cards in the lower series were re-issued with the 300 subjects back for some reason.

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Posted By: Brian McQueen

Mark -

Absolutely a terrific question. Your question got me curious about the cards as well so I went and took a look at the m116 blue backs I have.

In all, I have a large group 25 blue backs total. Out of this group, 18 of them have the "LARGER, BRIGHTER AND BETTER THAN EVER!" 5 cent backs. Those players are as follows:

Brown, Bresnahan, Collins, Doyle, Davis, Crawford, Bender, Thomas, Jennings, McQuillan, Dooin, Tenney, Jones, Leach, Jordan, Donovan, Jones, Brown

I also have one "proof" (at least, this is what the card is labeled as in it's GAI AUTHENTIC holder. It has a smooth, white blank back.

The final six cards are pretty unique. They are thick advertising pieces printed on thick cardboard. They all fit together at one point but were cut apart crudely. If I line them up, they fit together like a puzzle still. The material these pieces are made of are at least 3 times as thick as normal m116s. The blacks are greyish, blank and give off the impression that they were once a part of a thick cardboard box or advertising poster.

So aside from the blankbacked cards, I'm curious if a blue background m116 was ever printed with any other type of ad back besides the "5 cent" back I mentioned above.

Hope this helps....

Brian
redmaccie@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Mark

I would love to see pics of those cards Brian, thanks.

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Posted By: paulstratton

All of my blue backgrounds have the "Larger, Brighter and Better Than Ever!" 5 cent backs.

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Posted By: jP

yes please share pics of those thick cardboards ones. You won these on ebay awhile back ? i remember seeing some. thanks for sharing your info.

my collection: http://s102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/obaks/

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Posted By: Mark

It seems that is the only back on the Blue backgrounds. I wonder why?

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Posted By: Brian McQueen

Here's some scans of the advertisement cards. I think these are pretty neat and haven't seen any others made available .....

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Posted By: Mark

They were on Ebay last year. I thought about bidding on them and should have. I think they went for a pretty low price. NICE

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Posted By: warshawlaw

did Helen Keller cut up those cards?

On topic, I do not have any blue BG 300 backs among my 300 backs.

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

No information we have uncovered indicates that any "300 Series" cards exist with blue backgrounds. My own beliefs, which I hope to substantiate convincingly in print before we're all dead and gone, are:

--that the blue background cards were the earliest to be printed, and then after issuing the first two series, the decision was made to switch to the pastel backgrounds.

--that the 300 Series backs were the last series to be printed. The last group of new cards (Series 19-24) are found exclusively with these backs, and then the same "300 Series" plate was used to reprint some of the earlier series (or possibly team sets) that were in continued demand. Since Series 1 contains so many HOFers and stars, it was in great demand, which is why Series 1 players with 300 Series backs are found more often than players in other series-- but all with pastel backgrounds.

No evidence that the two groups overlap. If someone can show different, please let us know!

More in the eventual article

Tim

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Posted By: Brian McQueen

Jorge, Mark, Adam and others,

Yes, the 6 display pieces were originally auctioned off individually on Ebay last summer. I was really wanting to win all six of them because I had a feeling that they all fit together and wanted to see for myself. As you can see by the scan, I was correct, so what we learn from this is that we know m116 advertising sheets/posters existed at one point in addition to the actual cards.

Adam, sadly yes, the cards are indeed hacked up however there is a bright side to the crude way they were seperated - if the cards had been neatly trimmed, it probably wouldn't be apparent that they were attached at one point and a part of the same sheet. As you can see, they fit together pretty neatly so you get an idea of the origins of this small group. Despite their appearance, this is actually one of my favorite items in my collection, oddly enough.

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Posted By: Mark

A guy had 2 M116 H.O.F. players on Ebay for the longest time selling them as proofs graded by CSA. I was very close to buying them but after asking the board about CSA and the way they grade i decided not to. One was a Chance and the other was a bender.

I now believe they were the ads cut down and graded by CSA as proofs. I don't know what became of them, i have not seen them for a while. Has anyone ever seen a M116 proof and has PSA or SGC ever graded one?


Edited to say: i read Brian's post and you say you have a GAI AUT Proof, can i see a pic?

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Posted By: paulstratton

Tim,

What leads you to believe that the blue background cards were printed first?If you are saving it for the article, I understand. I was always under the impression that Series 1 cards were harder to find with the blue background and Series 2 were harder to find with the pastel background. Maybe this has nothing to do with them being printed/issued first though.

Brian,

Good thing you won them all and kept them together. Cool piece/s.

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Posted By: Patrick McMenemy

I have seen several blank back M116s that a dealer had at one of the old East Coast National Shows back when Gloria was still running the show. One of them was Ira Thomas.

I suspect that these were part of a Sporting Life advertising poster that someone cut up.

Patrick

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Posted By: George Dreher

From what I have been told over the years, when The Sporting Life went out of business in 1924, there was an auction of everything.....printing presses, etc. There was only one proof for each card produced (both blue and pastel). The entire set of proofs were auctioned together and ended up in the possession of one collector for many years. ASA and CSA graded the majority of the M116 proofs many years ago. If I were to venture a guess, Alan Hager probably owned many of them, as well as Wayne Moore? If there are proofs in any other slabs, then they were probably removed from ASA/CSA slabs and submitted to the other grading companies.

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

I once had a blank-back hand-cut (and beat up) M116 of Ed Lennox (series 4) but I sold it: not sure how that relates to the idea of a "proof" card.

Paul, you are right: blues are tougher than pastels in Series 1, easier in Series 2. The PSA/SGC population surveys make this very clear. I have a theory about why this is, but I'd better save it for the article. Actually, I think if you look closely at my previous comment and think about it a bit, you may find it's implicit. Series 1 was HUGE and continued to be in great demand throughout the entire period of the issue, and people could ask for specific series, if I'm not mistaken. Otherwise I'll be coy and hold onto my little secrets

Let's keep talking about this great set!

Tim



Egad, that's the one I used to own below
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Posted By: boxingcardman

Blank backed.

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Posted By: George Dreher

I've seen some blank backs that have been peeled. Most were glued into albums. Like I said previously, from what I've been told and read in articles many years ago, there was only supposed to be one proof for each M116 produced. If a player had a blue and a pastel card, there would have been one unique proof for each background color.

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Posted By: paulstratton

While we' re at it...some of the blue background cards have a solid blue background and some have a blend of the green and blue. Any theories as to why this would be the case? Does anyone have a player with both versions?

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Posted By: robert a

In terms of color backgrounds, I've noticed that certain players like Dooin for instance have a darker background in m116. (See his pose above in Brian's post) His same pose for e103 also always has that darker, deeper red background. Chance, on the other hand has the lighter backround in both m116 and e103.

Obviously, the two issues share many of the same poses, but the source photo for dooin must've had a darker background than chance.