Piedmont Factory 42 Conspiracy... T205 vs T206

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Posted By: Russ Bright

PLEASE, IF YOU HAVE ANY INFO ON THIS SUBJECT, POST, THERE ISN'T ENOUGH KNOWN

So... doing research this past couple weeks. We all do research. Josh Levine has Been studying T205 Back scarcity for years. I searched and while there have been a few threads in the past couple YEARS, there is very little info on T205 and this back.

I have spoken with a few of the experts on the board here about the back scarcity. and the general consensus is that is is rarer than Cycle, but not as rare as Broadleaf... worth more? Matter of opinion. I myself own over 200 T205's and didn't own one. I hadn't even SEEN one until 2 weeks ago on Ebay when they started cropping up everywhere.

There have been over 10 T205's with the Piedmont Factory 42 back listed in the past 2 weeks...
and the strange thing is, I'm noticing a pattern... Some of the SP's seem to ONLY come with Piedmont 42 backs

Jeff Sweeney - I have seen 5 in the past week with the Piedmont 42 back -if you have anything different, PLEASE scan and post, I don't think they had any Fact 25's
here's e-bay proof (lol, that's always believable)

http://cgi.ebay.com/1911-T205-Gold-Border-Sweeney-Yankees-GOOD_W0QQitemZ290091963237QQcategoryZ86841QQssPage NameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item29009196323 7
http://cgi.ebay.com/1911-T205-Ed-Sweeney-Piedmont-Yankees-Low-Pop-VG_W0QQitemZ160090763301QQcategoryZ86841QQssPageNa meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item160090763301
http://cgi.ebay.com/1911-T205-SP-Jeff-Sweeney-PSA-5-6760_W0QQitemZ190092756482QQcategoryZ31718QQssPage NameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item19009275648 2

Kirby White - haven't seen any Fact 25's either (Please prove me wrong with a scan)

http://cgi.ebay.com/1911-T205-GOLD-BORDER-KIRB-WHITE-FACTORY-42-PSA-4-VG-EX_W0QQitemZ230100899685QQcategoryZ31718QQssPageNa meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item230100899685
http://cgi.ebay.com/Three-T205s-Snodgrass-Street-White-Piedmont-No-RES_W0QQitemZ180095053998QQcategoryZ86841QQssPageN ameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item180095053998
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140084623170




OK, my question is... In T206 these cards command a premium of 6 times because of back scarcity.

Do T205's even demand a premium? If most of the cards seen with Factory 42 backs are SP anyways, is the premium added in? Opinions? Should I keep buying them for when people decide that there IS a premium?

any help is greatly appreciated!

thanks!
Russ

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Posted By: barrysloate

T206 Piedmont factory 42's are tough cards...I don't believe the same is true for T205.

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Posted By: Joey Settle

Most of the T205's and T206's listed in the past week or so came from a large group of tobacco cards that were discovered in South Carolina almost 2 years ago. Almost all of the T205 and T206 cards were Piedmonts and of those, 90% were of the Fact. 42 variety. I would say there were about 125 T205's in the group and 100 or so T206's. The remainder of the group consisted of approximately 50 T209-1's and 250 or so T209 photo series. There were 2 of the T209 Thompson cards. A local collector consigned the cards he purchased from the group to be sold on eBay by the dealer who originally found them. It was really intersting to see the cards brought in a Flor de Franklin cigar box they had called home for the last 95 years or so. There was a funny part to the story though. The guy who had the cards didn't seem to care about the numerous Cobbs and Mathewsons in the box. He was more impressed that he thought he had Billy Martin's rookie card, the T209-1 Martin from Spartanburg. Here are a few of my T209's from that find including his prized possesion, "Billy" Martin's RC.

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Posted By: Mike Taylor

It's funny - I was going to ask the same question about the connection between the T-205 short prints and the Piedmont Factory 42 back, but it looks like I was beaten to it. In the short time I have been actively collecting the set I have observed the same thing. I have three of the SPs and two of them have F42 backs. I think it would be interesting to see some data on the SPs and what back they are. Here's what I have in my modest collection so far:

Fisher - Hassan F30
Sweeney - Piedmont F42
Kirb White - Piedmont F42

Let's see what we can all come up with!

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Posted By: Marc

I have owned several hundred T205's. Of those, there are 4 Piedmont 42's. Three are Kirb White and one is G.C. Ferguson. I have often wondered the same thing about the short prints as all of the Kirb White and most of the Sweeney cards I have ever seen are Piedmont 42 (though strangely enough, the Sweeney I currently own is a Piedmont 25). I always figured it was the same case with many short prints in the T207 set that only are known with rarer backs/factories. Different factories maybe had only one print run of certain cards hence causing them to be short prints.

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Posted By: Russ Bright

Marc, if you can post a scan of the Sweeney Fact25 it would be greatly appreciated!

Anyone else? These threads always seem to get ignored, and I think that if there was more input we might get a good answer. I know there are a lot of T205 collectors out there!

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Posted By: Marc

Here is the scan of the Sweeney card. The ink on the back of the card is a bit light and difficult to see but it is indeed a Factory 25. I agree that these threads are often ignored, as is the T205 set in general relative to some of the other great sets. Personally it is my favorite pre-war set and I know many others who feel the same. Yet it is still often difficult to find much in-depth info and discussions about issues such as this.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

I have the following T206's with Fact 42 Piedmont backs:
Devlin
Phillippe
Oakes
McIntire
Barger Partial B
Scanlon

Be well Brian

PS T206's with 42's are much tougher than T205's

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Posted By: Martin Neal

Hi Russ,

The Sweeney I have is a Hassan 30 as are most of my SPs. I used to own a Piedmont 25 Rowan, still have a scan if you need it.

Piedmont 42s
Oakes
Mcgraw

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Thank you for the interesting information of that South Carolina find.
Being that I'm a T209 type II Contentnea indentured servant, I do remember that particular eBay sale.
I picked up a few T209's from that dealer.
Off hand, I can't remember his name, but I do remember that it was a pleasure dealing with that gentleman.
The Martin story is a kicker, and that's a good looking card that you have of him. ... those type II photos don't look bad either.
Are you collecting the set?

Have fun, and enjoy the card ride.
Joe P.

Edited to cast my vote with Marc.
I also feel that the T205 set, is the better looking of the pre war tobacco sets.

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Posted By: Shawn

I have one Piedmont Factory 42 from the 2003 Topps 205 buyback run...

Edgar Summers

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Posted By: Mike (18colt)

Out of the 44 T-205 I have, one is Piedmont factory 42 (Miller, Pittsburgh).

Out of over 500 T-206, I have one Piedmont factory 42 (Cy Young).

I know very little about T-205, so with the exception of my own collection for data and whatever Lew Lipset has in his book, I can't contribute any more than this.

Mike (18colt)

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Posted By: Lee

I have zero t205 fact 42's

T206 Fact 42:
Snodgrass
McIntyre

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Posted By: J Levine

Okay guys...here is my research...

Piedmont fact. 42 backs are rare. Rarer than Cycle but not as rare as Broadleaf. The previous poster is correct that in the past month there have been nearly 30 fact. 42 backs sold and nearly all from the same collection.

When it comes to the short prints I have had a theory for a long time about how T205s were printed. I think that the Fact. 42 backs were a later printing and replaced certain cards (creating some of the single prints) 1 for 1 on the sheets. This is only a theory.

Along with a few other collectors I have been trying to buy fact. 42s and only won one out of this past week's auctions (although it was the Hoblitzell no Cin.---a true rarity). To date, I own 17 different 42s.

To date, including the 42s auctioned this week, I have seen just over 200 different 42s total! I have seen more Cycles but less (much less) Broadleafs.

They are rare. (Shawn Adkins might have more to add).

I also want to agree with Barry and say that T206 Fact. 42s are rarer. There are exponentially more T206s than T205s yet I see t205 fact. 42s about twice as often as t206.

Joshua

PS I know this past year's (2006) T205 report was not put out by me but I have the data and just have not put it together yet. Maybe over Spring Break.

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Posted By: David Smith

What about T205's with Sweet Caporal Factory 42 backs?

I only own 10 T205's, all bought together at a small country auction in one lot. The breakdown is as follows:

Piedmont Factory 25 (5) Terry Turner-is he a short print?
Sweet Cap Factory 25 (2) Stovall and Stanage
Sweet Cap Factory 42 (3) Birmingham, Griffith and Wolter

The Birmingham and Griffith have dark or sepia printing on the back while the Wolter has red printing. Does that make a difference??

I have (hopefully) included scans of the front and back of the Birmingham, Griffith and Wolter cards.

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Posted By: J Levine

In terms of scarcity there is virtually no difference between the sweet cap. fact. 42 and fact. 25. Black sweet caps (your's appear sepia but it is just aged/fading) is very slightly rarer than red (very slightly). What you have are three of the most common backs. Terry Turner is a short print.

hope this helps.

Joshua

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Posted By: Russ Bright

Thanks for the input Josh, it's always nice to have someone with expertise "chime in" on these T205 questions.

I was fortunate enough to pick up 7 factory 42's out of the last couple week's auctions and WISH I had picked the Hoblitzell... but it was a little too pricey for my blood!


on a T205 Related note, has anyone seen Shawn A lately? You can reply off-list with any info, but I know he's had health problems in the past, and it's scary to NOT hear from someone in a couple months.

thanks!

R

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Posted By: David Smith

Thank you, Joshua, that is good to know.

The cards aren't in very good condition as you can see but, then again, I didn't pay very much for them either. If they had been rare backs, then all the better. But, they are not, so back in the safety deposit box they will go.

Thanks again,

David

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Posted By: J Levine

Russ et. al.

The Hoblitzell Fact. 42 literally went for half my snipe. A simillarly graded one went for more than I thought and figured I needed this badly enough. I was very happy getting it for what I consider a bargain. I really am two cards away from a master set now, the Hobby no stats and a Drum back.

Last I heard, Shawn was busy with homelife stuff and doing fine. I hope that is the case.

Joshua

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Posted By: Russ Bright

So I just got 6 Factory 42's in the mail.

One of the ones I won from the seller (the same one you won the Hoblitzell from) had advertised that my Bresnehan (closed) PSA4 was a RARE Piedmont Factory42 - and it's not... so I wrote the seller and am debating what I want to do...

Here's hoping that your Hobby IS a factory42 and not a seller mistake!

i guess we're undecided whether the T205s should hold a premium, sigh

Maybe we should make a decision and set the rest of the collecting world on their ear... we're most of the T205 contingent on this board anyways...

just a thought!

Russ