fraudulent autograph alert!....and SCD?

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Posted By: sean

Just wanted to give everyone a heads up. If you receive a list for autographs for sale from a joseph butler DO NOT BUY ANY! I got duped into buying $500 worth off him that I never received. He seemed very reliable over the phone but I should have been worried when he told me to make the M.O. out to carl meyer. I just realized that carl meyer is the one that ripped me off on ebay 6 months ago on a signed goudey that was fake fake fake. BE VERY CAREFUL if you receive this catalog.


edited title to be more specific to content

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Posted By: davidcycleback

It's always safest to purchase autographs from an autograph dealer with a good reputation in
that area. I'm generally not interested in purchasing online autographs from someone I don't know,
unless it comes with a UDA hologram/LOA or he can show it was purchased in a Mike Gutierrez Auction
or such. A buyer can consider a reputable autograph dealer to be the first firewall against fakes,
and when you resell the autograph you can show you purchased from a reputable autograph dealer. Part of
the reason to buy a Yankees team signed ball from Mike Gutierrez is so when you resell you can say, "I
purchased this Yankees team signed ball from Mike Gutierrez." It's similar to when you win a game used
jersey in an Oakland A's team charity auction. When you turn to resell you can say, "I purchased this
A's jersey directly from the Oakland A's." It's a better sales pitch than "I purchased A's jersey
directly from my baby sitter."

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Posted By: Bob Lemke

There's a name from the past, the distant past. If it's the same Carl Meyer, who as I recall was in or around Maryland, he was one of the biggest crooks that we dealt with at SCD in the early 1980s. He was expert at using other people or identities as fronts and was a very smooth operator in person. It's been 25 years, so the details have long since been pushed out of my consciousness, and the physical records long sinze shredded from SCD's warehouse, but "Carl Meyer" was, at that time, one of the 3-5 biggest crooks to ever rip off the SCD readership.

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Posted By: JT Burtchaell

Does Coaches Corner fall into "the 3-5 biggest crooks to ever rip off the SCD readership"?

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Posted By: Bob Lemke

While I was associated with the sports division at Krause from Day 1 in 1980 until the early-1990s, and from 1998 until the day I left their employ May 1, 2006, I left the division to work in corporate management ranks for several years. In 1998 I returned to the sports division as editor of the Standard Catalog and as a sometimes columnist for SCD. At that point I had no "clout" concerning who advertised or how, though I certainly kept myself in the info loop and provided counsel when asked. It is my understanding that 2-3 years ago, then publisher Dean Listle, acting on concerns about Coach's Corner and some other advertisers, instituted new policies, particularly as concerned autographed items, requiring them to be able to provide authentication upon demand (such as if specific complaints about an item were received). Whether those policies were ever adhered to or are still be followed, I do not know. I do know that once Krause was sold out from under its employee owners after Chet Krause and Cliff Mishler had retired, the new owners virtually disbanded the Customer Service Department that had monitored, adjudicated and enforced ad policies under my "watch".

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I checked CC's listings. A lot of their moderm shiny players stuff has respectable LOAs (GAI, PSA, UDA, Tri Star). It's just their headlining Ty Cobb, Marilyn Monroe, Josh Gibson, The Beatles that comes with less than stellar certification.

What's hilarious is the prices they get for their rarities. If for years one were selling authentic Ty Cobbs, Babe Ruths, Mark Twains, James Deans and Josh Gibsons for 1/5th the price that Mastro gets, you'd think one would figure out it's time for a new business plan-- such as consigning to Mastro.

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Posted By: DJ

You are being generous with the 1/5th price...more like 1/20th.

Take for instance Mel Ott single signed baseballs, VERY RARE, right? Mastro sold a beauty for $35,187 some six years ago and got $24,107 for one three years ago.

CCSA had TWO in their last auction that were very "high quality". How much did they sell for?

Ball #1: (lot 19)
...grades a 7.5 overall and the ball comes with a COA from the hobby experts/pioneers at STAT AUTHENTIC for authenticity purposes. Book value is over $20,000!

Sold for $ 682.

Ball #2: (lot 213)
...grades a 7 overall. It comes with a COA from forensic expert examiner Chris Morales and book value is over $20,000. Nice!

Sold for $ 653.

They mention the retail price and nobody (including the winning bidder) questions why they won a $20,000 item for $600?

Gotta love it Bob, gotta love it.

DJ

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Posted By: Anonymous

Does anyone know where Coach's Corner gets the vintage balls that they sell that are autographed? It would seem to me that the balls themselves would fetch a nice price.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Ask 'em. Maybe they'll tell you.

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Posted By: FGN

Have to say DJ is always on the money with these issues. Also glad to see Mr. Lemke weighing in.

Mr. Lemke it seems that you may have some issues with the current regime at SCD. At least in their handling of these matters. You speak about how things were different under your watch. I'm sure many of us would appreciate if you can shed some light about how you handled things when you were in charge. Coach's has been realizing these bargain basement prices for many years and I'm sure they have had their share of complaints. I remember when SCD instituted those new policies that you refer to. For one or two auctions Coach's used a more widely respected authenticator to authenticate their top items. But that didn't last and they soon returned to their preferred authenticators. It just seems that SCD may not be doing all that they can or should when it comes to certain advertisers.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Hi Bob- good to see you posting and hope you are well. Haven't spoken to you in awhile. I intended to post this last night when Net54 suddenly went down.

I first wanted to mention that I have been working with Don Fluckinger and Justin Moet on the 2008 Standard Catalog. Nobody can do the book as well as you did, so they have asked some hobby veterans for their assitance. Hopefully next year's guide will employ the same high standards of the past.

I also wanted to make one comment about SCD. I was a subscriber for over 20 years, even after the magazine started to get a lot smaller. But it was one odious policy that caused me to cancel my subscription. When SCD started to allow front cover advertising, and a certain high profile dealer was shown flashing a wad of $100 bills with that same phony smile almost every week, I took offense and bailed out. I thought that it looked desperate and was the epitome of bad taste. Inside the magazine was one thing, but when it went to the front cover it crossed the line.

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

I subscribed to SCD from 1977 until sometime in the late '90s. There were a number of factors on why I pulled the plug, and Barry's point was one of them. The magazine quickly lost much of whatever credibility it had left by the time I quit reading it -- and that was kind of sad because for so many years SCD played a pivotal role in our hobby.

About every six months or so I still receive a card in the mail about subscribing, and I just smile as I toss it in the trash. Things have changed so much in the way collectors pursue their hobby interests, SCD simply has become irrelevant.

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Posted By: Mark Evans

Bob--

I'm wondering whether you would happen to have any recollection regarding the authenticity of a particular item advertised in SCD. Some time back (5-7 years maybe?), an ad appeared for autographed 16x20 photos of Mantle and Mays together pictured early in their careers. I think the price was around $169 or so. I can't recall the seller. The ad appeared only once as I recall, causing me to wonder whether it had been pulled for issues of authenticity. Thanks. Mark

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Posted By: Bob Lemke

That doesn't ring any bells with me. As I said, I had no contact with the ad side of SCD after the early- mid-1990s.

Barry, thanks for your assistance to Don and Justin on the next edition of the catalog. I know what's required to do the job and I am not confident they have been given the necessary resources to make a seamless transition. As far as "selling" the front cover . . . it's not really the "official" cover, just a mailing wrapper. If you bought your SCD at ashop or Barnes & Noble, etc., that false cover is not there. The use of a mailing cover became necessary when SCD ceased polybagging each issue for mailing. As far as that goes, Alan Rosen doesn't "own" that ad space, it is (or was) available on a first-come basis and is (or was) used by all the major auction houses and major dealers. I'm not right up to the minute on that.

I don't want to be an apologist for the current SCD or Standard Catalog, but I did spend over 25 years building those franchises and I retain a sense of "ownership". I also don't want to be one of who looks at the past with rose-colored glasses, for we certainly had our problems and challenges. To answer FGN's question about how things (presumably he means complaints about advertisers) were handled "back in my day," I can tell you this. From the day I started at Krause in 1974, they maintained a Customer Service Department, essentially a full-time person who dealt with such complaints. Ad policies for each publication were clearly spelled out and they were basically black-and-white, there were no gray areas. While each publisher or his designated ad manager had the ultimate "say," the Customer Service Department was responsible for investigating reader complaints against advertisers and attempting resolution. When all else failed, it was up to the publisher or ad manager to determine whether or not ad privileges were suspended. SCD readers were fortunate in that both Doug Watson, who had the title of publisher from 1981-83, then me, were dedicated collectors who had the growth and health of the hobby foremost in mind when making those decisions. We had the full support of Chet Krause and, later, Cliff Mishler, if we decided to forego immediate ad dollars for the overall good of the hobby. You also had a great ally in former ad manager Dan Albaugh, who hated hobby crooks with a passion and had an eye for ferretting out the bad ones. Together we rigorously enforced ad policy asnd when the crooks came up with new scams, we added new policies to protect our readers and the legitimate advertisers. As I said yesterday, when Krause was sold, the Customer Service Department was disbanded as one of the many bottom-line enhancing moves the new owners instituted to make the company attractive for the next buyer. Sadly, once those types of cuts are made, the lost services are never restored. For all practical purposes, buying from SCD's pages is the same caveat emptor situation that exists on eBay, at shows and at shops. I can't speak for the overall quality of Coach's Corner advertised items, but I can ask you this: What do you think would happen to SCD if CC's ad pages disappeared? My guess is that the publication would cease to exist. Maybe that's as it should be.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Bob- thanks for coming back on to answer our questions. I remember in my early days of advertising in SCD working very closely with Dan Albaugh. He was a great guy and we formed a bit of a friendship over the years.

I do agree that Don doesn't quite have the expertise you did in putting together the Standard Catalog, but he made a good decision to get the input of hobby experts. I was able to go through the vintage section and update prices, or add cards to checklists, wherever I felt I was qualified. I think the 2008 book will be just fine. Let's hope so.

And I understand the front cover advertising was available to whomever got there first, but I have to say it detracted greatly from the appearance of the magazine. I winced every time an issue came with whatever his name is on the cover.

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

I am aghast at what SCD has turned into under F+W. While they finally had a good article in the 3/23 issue (Keith Olbermann on 68 Topps 3-D, a must read if you collect that set)it is turning into an auction sheet. Most "Articles" consist of re-worded auction house press releases. I have been a subscriber for 26 years and have 2 more to go on my sub. I hope that it is re-sold to a company that cares about the publication and the hobby soon or I'll probably let it lapse in '09.

Having said that, I also get their record collecting magazine Goldmine and that has actually improved IMO since the takeover. On the other hand, it was merged with a mag called Discoveries and I doubt their readership is as happy as I am with the new, combined Goldmine, since their nice pre-Beatles oriented mag is now heavy on the Classic Rock and later eras. It'll be interesting to see if SCD survives. I think there is a market for a good, baseball heavy sports card pub that focuses on the post Old Cardboard stuff and comes out every two months or so. Every week is just ridiculous for SCD now-it's like they have to eat their young to survive with that schedule. Something like a cross between Old Cardboard, the old Baseball Cards magazine (the first 3 years) and the early Beckett Vintage would be nice, especially if it was in color. Man I feel old, I remember when SCD was considering making itself a DAILY!

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Posted By: FGN

Bob Lemke wrote, "What do you think would happen to SCD if CC's ad pages disappeared? My guess is that the publication would cease to exist."

While many of us have recognized the truth in that statement for some time, it is nice to hear it from such a well respected voice in the hobby.

Assuming the reality of of Mr. Lemke's statement,the unhealthy relationship it creates between publication and advertiser is undeniable. Almost resulting in a partnership of sorts. Then with the authenticator of many of Coach's lead items being a long time SCD contibutor who doubles as Coach's PR man . . . WOW!!

Maybe its time to re-think my subscription.

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Posted By: sean

Hello,
thanks for the reponse. I am actually trying to get a mail fraud case started against good ol carl. I have sent all the pertenent documents to a mail fraud investigator in chicago and they said they will get back to me this month. Ill keep you posted.
If you have any further info, I would be eternally grateful if you let me know. ANYTHING will help towards getting this guy his comeuppance. Im $500 poorer because of him