Funky E90-1 auction thanks to PSA?

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

Or am I missing something?

http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-E90-1-American-Caramel-LARRY-McLEAN-RARE_W0QQitemZ200072387215QQihZ010QQcategoryZ31718 QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

McLean is very scarce in E90-1, but how does PSA know this is an E90-1 (since it has the "super rare blank back")? Couldn't it just as easily be an blank backed E92, in which McLean is very common?

If someone can riddle this one out, I'd be grateful--

Tim

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Posted By: Bob

Tim- You've got me. I think its an E92 blank back as the background color looks "off" from the color of my E90-1 McLean. I have long suspected that PSA's habit of misnaming players and mislabeling sets results from the submitter's mistake on the submission form and they (PSA) just follow what is typed on it. This may be the case here.
Bob

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Posted By: Dylan

Well someone will be pretty upset if winning a fairly common E92 for the going rate of the E90

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Posted By: Paul Kaufman

It's an E92 alright.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

How does that PSA buyback policy work? Yup, this looks like a prime candidate...

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Posted By: Larry

This E90-1 McLean is my card and I got it graded by SGC first as E90-1 then switched to PSA with same results. I also got another E90-1 McLean with regular back and BOTH have exactly same front image including the name & team at bottom. Are there anybody trying to buy McLean cheaper by brainwashing others not to buy this???

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Posted By: Dave

Larry is probably right here..shouldn't this have waited until after the auction was over?

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Posted By: dan mckee

Great point Larry, if the fronts are the same and the back is blank, who is to say which E issue it is. I think it could be E90-1 as easily as E92. And it is labeled E90-1 so why not?

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Definitely a bad discussion to be having WHILE the auction is running. I'd be pissed


Daniel

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

Sorry, but I don't think this should have waited until the auction is over. There's a material issue about the description and the claims made for the card. Calling it to people's attention is no different from posts that question whether an active auction is authentic or a reprint. (This card is not a reprint, I realize, but I do question whether it is what it's claimed to be.)

This is less the seller's fault than PSA's, but still... I feel potential bidders ought to know that it may be impossible to determine whether this is an E90-1. What's the point of bringing that question up after the auction is over?

To reiterate, I believe the blank back makes it impossible to determine which issue it comes from. However, you could always claim that all E90-1/E92 blank backs are rare and sell it that way, no problem. But I don't see any reason for pinpointing this as an E90-1. I invited people to supply evidence to the contrary, but no one has-- unless we believe the grading companies know something about these cards that none of us do.

And Larry, I am not trying to brainwash anyone into not bidding so I can keep the price low for myself. No offense, but the price is already way beyond what I think the card is worth. If other bidders choose to accept PSA's assertion that it's an E90-1, that's their decision.

Nothing personal, and I wish you a good price and a successful transaction--

Tim

Edited for grammar

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Posted By: barrysloate

Tim- I agree with you, but if you were printing the label what would you call it?

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Posted By: Mark

Funny thing, I have a E90/2 Bemis - Blankback that was labeled as a E92 Dockman; but I have always wondered how is it “matter-of-factly” an E92 and not necessarily an E90? With quality control being what it was during the early 20th century, isn’t it plausible that Blankbacks could come in all E issues? I noticed several E93 Blankback’s have been turning-up lately on the ‘Bay.

Anyone know the background of the Blankback E92’s that originally entered the hobby?

Mark

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Barry,

Suggested labels:

E90-1/E92 McLean
E9x McLean
E-Unc McLean

There is no need to pick one set or the other.

Scot

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Posted By: barrysloate

Scot- I think the grading services have specific policies regarding how to label cards of questionable origin. I think the "Unc." might be what they would choose, but not the other two.

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Posted By: Dylan

If you can not with certainty identify which set a card is from then the card should just have a grade and no set designation, it most certainly shouldnt be whatever the psa grader guesses it to be. E92's are far more likely to be blank backed then E90's. And ive found you can not judge an E card by color tone alone. You can look at countless examples where a specific card from one set has several different shades of a color. There's so many things that can darken or lighten or even change the color of a card. I would never trust that as an indicator alone.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Dylan is right. You never see blank backed E90-1's, but do see the occasional E92. Still, they are just guessing.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

He states, and there is absolutely no reason to not believe him, that the card was originally graded by SGC as an E90-1.
That's 2 grading companies, not one.
And as NO-ONE has shown the card is definitively NOT an E90 card, then who are you all to question the designation.
It is as fair as any other.

Weak - if you ask me, because this is not an instance where someone caught something in the card's make-up that CLEARLY showed it to be something else.
If all it is - is ???????, then you absolutely should save such discussion until after the auction.
Can't believe others think otherwise.

Daniel

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Posted By: Larry

Hey Tim... To remind you that I was the owner of this blank back McLean. I'm asking you a question... Is it possible that the factory pressing machine broke down or out of ink or plate broke or worker forgot to turned over cardboard after front was printed that makes the backs blank? We all know that old factories don't make perfect cards like today's machines. What about the miscuts, off centers, misspelled, ghost images & missed colors? They all are factory mistakes and it could be anything including blank backs.
How come BOTH SGC & PSA labeled it as a E90-1 after they inspected it & you didn't even touch it yourself and how the world do you know it's not E90-1??? It could be the ONLY E90-1 blank back of McLean who knows??? If you got any problems with this and you should contact PSA or SGC since they BOTH did labeled it as E90-1.. NOT BY ME!!!

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Posted By: JimB

The E93 blank backs originated from the same source that produced two E93 uncut sheet sets (in panels) that Mastro auctioned off a year or so ago. I would assume there were three sets and the original owner cut up one of the sheets (or more accurately, a partial sheet) into individual cards. To my knowledge, those are the only E93 blank backs known. So each one is unique. I think there were 19 of them total with no duplicates when the group was sold as a lot in Mastro. The winner has just broken up the group to make a little cash. I have been a bit surprised that they have not sold for more. Perhaps it is because t hey all came to the hobby at once and thus did not seem that rare. I think when they fade away into collections, that in the future they will be thought of as quite desirable.
JimB

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Posted By: fkw

Most if not all of the blank backed cards (Ive seen) correspond exactly with the E92 checklist.

Does anyone have a blank back E90-1 card that is not a player in any of the 4 E92 sets?

Lets see those blank backed Jackson's, Mitchell's, Baker's, Joss's, Keeler's, Duffy's, Sweeney's, etc.

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Posted By: RC McKenzie

That card did pretty well for what the seller described as "an excellent low grade filler".

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Posted By: JimB

I don't know if he lurks on this board, but Muskycaptain is a pretty knowledgeable guy when it comes to E cards. I imagine he knew what he was bidding on.
JimB

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Posted By: robert a

Just for the sake of argument...

I think you have to go with what makes the most sense here.

This would be similar to if we saw an e90-2/e104-2 pose with a blank back.

Which issue would it be? It would be e104-2...because other e104 types have been found with blank backs AND with an ad back.

Is it POSSIBLE that an e90-2 could have a blank back? Yes, but way more unlikely than the logical choice.

e90's are not found with blank backs unless it's some kind of printer's scrap. If that's the case, then why is sgc or psa grading the card with a number anyways? They refuse to issue t206 blank backs number grades.

Oh yeah, because they don't know what the hell they're doing.

Rob

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

I don't mean to perpetuate a controversy since the auction is over but since you asked me directly, here's what I would say to your questions:

1. It's very possible that the machine broke or erred and the blank back was created in error. But that's irrelevant: it doesn't tell us anything about whether the broken machine was printing E90-1s or E92s at the time.

2. Not touching it myself has nothing to do with it. I don't KNOW it's not an E90-1, but neither can you KNOW that it is one. I have never claimed to KNOW which set it is from. But the burden of proof is on you because you have made a positive (legally binding) claim that you cannot verify. There's a lot of evidence that E92s appear with blank backs, and no conclusive evidence that E90-1s do. I have a blank back McLean myself. It looks EXACTLY like yours, but I wouldn't feel justified in selling it as an E90-1 (even if PSA graded it that way), because I believe it's much more likely to be an E92.

3. You seem to think that because no one can say for sure what it is, you as the seller can claim whatever is most convenient for you. That's a pretty questionable position.

4. Sure, "it could be the ONLY E90-1 blank back of McLean who knows???" But that's exactly the point: you can't KNOW either. You took advantage of the grading company's decision and advertised that you KNOW what it is. That's what I object to. The impossibility of KNOWING which set it comes from should have been indicated in the auction, in my opinion.

5. "How come BOTH SGC & PSA labeled it as a E90-1 after they inspected it?"
Well, uh, because, as we all know, grading companies frequently take shortcuts and make mistakes in labeling. We've all seen the incredible mistakes they have made in labeling. I would trust them to grade the card's condition more than I would trust them to KNOW what the card is.

In any case, you got a great price for the card-- what are you complaining about?

Regards,

Tim

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

Why the do you feel so committed to protecting the seller in this situation? Are you that convinced the grading companies are infallible experts? If Lew Lipset said it was an E90-1, I'd have to believe him. But PSA and SGC-- no way in heck.

Also, if I were selling something that knowledgeable people felt might not be what it was claimed to be, I would want to know that– even if it cost me some bucks. The point is that the bucks might not be fairly acquired.

WOULDN'T YOU?

Tim

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Posted By: Noel

Tim,

Excellent points, as a buyer i think I have every right to this information before i make a purchase. Full transparency should be the norm and not the exception. I dont know enough about E90's to know either way.

Thanks for the heads up.

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Posted By: Larry

You make me sounds like a bad seller??? You said "You took advantage of the grading company's decision and advertised that you KNOW what it is." THAT'S A LIE!! I NEVER KNEW IT TIL YOU BOUGHT THIS UP. I DID BOUGHT IT AS A E90-1 IN SGC HOLDER FOR MY SET then I got a better grade one to replace this blank back one. I honestly believe it was E90-1 all the time til now.
I really doesn't like what you are saying about me as if I KNOW this is a E92 which isn't true. I don't collect E92's at all & I collects E90-1's and I BOUGHT THIS BLANK BACK McLEAN IN SGC HOLDER AS A E90-1 NOT A E92 FOR MY E90-1 SET. Had it switched to PSA and still same results as a E90-1. How do I supposed to know that it's not a E90-1 if BOTH grading companies label it as a E90-1? If I KNOW it was E92 then I wouldn't have bought this blank back McLean at first place! What makes you think I KNOW this is a E92 as you mentioned in your last message?

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I have collected E90-1 cards since the mid-1980's. I completed a 120 card set and have
about 1/2 of a second set. Therefore, I can say I have seen many, many E90-1's. And, I
have never seen a BLANK-BACK (B-B) from the E90-1 set.

Now, we know there exists B-B E92's, and most likely all these early E-cards were pro-
duced in the same printing facility in the Philadelphia area back in 1908-09. And, with
the front pictures being identical.....how can anyone really differentiate a B-B card.....
as to which of these sets it's from ?

I fully agree with Tim that we cannot rely on any Grading Co. to label a card correctly.
But, irregardless of the "label", I really do not know how this McLean can be identified.
I look at the McLean cards I have (or have seen) and the E90-1 versions have a richer
color to them. While the few E92 cards of McLean that I have seen have a pale orange
color to them. But, we cannot really differentiate by the colors on the front, either, as
that was a function of the printing process. And, of course, what complicates this here
is that E90-1 McLean was issued in the last series, and therefore, a tough card. While,
the E92 McLean is a common card and not as valuable.

Maybe we should start a Survey on B-B thread on E-type cards and see what surfaces ?

TED Z

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Posted By: Larry

It's great to hear from someone who collects E90-1's for years like you and I do agree with Tim on error labels but the point we were talking about is which E card it belongs to. Not only PSA but SGC too labeled it as E90-1 which makes me believe it's a E90-1. Been wondering why BOTH PSA & SGC said it's a E90-1 instead of E92? Are the E92's the only ones with B-B??? Any of other E cards have B-B?? More informations would be appreciated since I do collects E90-1's.
I would think the Survey on B-B thread on E-type cards would be great so we all will know more about E cards but how will we know which E they belong to?

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Posted By: leon

I am not a set collector. Is Miller-fielding (the big glove pose) in E90-1? thanks guys

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Indeed, Dots Miller is in the E90-1 set with a pix of him with an oversized 5-finger glove.

TED Z

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Posted By: leon

The reason I asked (see scan)....also, I have owned several Mclean blank backs..he seems to be a more common blank backed version....Miller fielding is found with the rare red Crofts back too....

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

Hi Larry,

I apologize for implying that you knew about this issue before you listed the card. What you did is understandable-- not knowing there might be a question about what set it came from, you went by the grading company's authority. Doing that made sense with the info you had at the time, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

However, now you have more info. If it were my auction and this controversy had come up too late to cancel it, I believe the ethical thing to do would be to write to the high bidder, tell him about this thread, and allow him to opt out of the auction without a penalty. If he still wanted the card after full disclosure, then I would feel I was off the hook with my seller's integrity intact.

Hope that helps--

Cheers,
Tim

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I have problems with the BB card Grading industry, so even if 4 or 5 Grading Co. looked at your
McLean and labelled it the same, that would not give me any confidence that it is correct.

This "crossover" practice of slabbed cards, that is popular lately, in most situations is just a
repetition of what the prior Graders labelled. The only Grader that ever impressed me is Derek
who use to work for SGC.

Anyhow, I am initiating a Survey on Blank-Backs....and even Blank-Fronts (I have such a card).

TED Z

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Posted By: Dylan

Did you send the card in with it already in the sgc holder? Perhaps psa just looked at what was on the holder and never really tried to evaluate what set its from. Plus its been brought up many times that psa will place whatever set designation the submitter has written down on the slab without checking if its correct. Either way i dont trust psa to get it right in the slightest. So really all your card has going for it is that ONE grading service said it was an E90, but we haven't seen a scan to prove that it was ever in an sgc holder as an E90, so thats speculation. And SGC is not above making mistakes even though i generally hold them in pretty high esteem. So if thats all you can bring to the table as proof your card is an E90, its pretty safe to assume its an E92(not to mention ive been tracking E90 and collecting the set the last year and never have seen, let alone heard of a blank backed E90)