Slabbing Cards From Uncut Sheets

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Suppose you have a full production run (i.e., with full colors and backs) uncut sheet. Is it possible to cut cards from the sheet and have them slabbed? I pose this question not in contemplation of cutting up a sheet but solely for the purpose of valuing it. It would seem to me that if you have a pristine sheet with technically unblemished cards and it were possible to cut the sheet and have the cards graded as if they had been cut at the time of original issue, then the value of the sheet should be at least comparable to the break value of the unblemished cards. For example, as we know, there are uncut '33 Goudey sheets in circulation. Suppose in one of those sheets the cards appear essentially perfect (SGC 96/PSA 9). And suppose the value of the cards slabbed as such total X. Does it follow then that the sheet should be worth at least that much, or should the sheet instead be valued on an entirely different basis?

All thoughts would be welcome.


Edited for grammer

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Posted By: Dylan

This isnt quite the case, as i understand some of the grading companies wont touch cards that arent factory cut. However if one of the big three or four does then id imagine the value could be based in that sense, but youd also have to have the ability to cut these things without error.

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Posted By: Ken McMillan

I woulb be careful doing this one. Uncut sheets would be quite rare (even more rare than cut cards), and hence more valuable. I would consider having such sheet framed to preserve the integrity of the piece. Just a thought.

ken

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Corey: grading companies in theory will not slab cards newly cut from sheets. That does not mean it doesn't happen, though.

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Posted By: barrysloate

You could end up with 30 PSA 9's, or 30 cards in sleeves labelled "evidence of trim". The downside of cutting up a sheet would be so devastating that it would not be worth it. Most uncut sheets are already quite valuable, and by cutting them they might be worth only a tiny fraction. That's why I don't think there is a number that correlates to the individual cards. Sure, if you have a T206 Wagner on it it's more valuable than if you don't, but to assume a sheet is just a cut away from becoming individual PSA 9's is the wrong way to look at it.

P.S.- The word is spelled "grammar"

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Posted By: Joe Jones

I dont think Corey meant that he was going to cut up a sheet. He is asking what the value of all the cards on the sheet would add up to if they were in pristine condition.

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Posted By: David Smith

Here we go again, (hypothetically) throwing history to the wind for the almighty dollar.

OK, so let's say you go to a flea market in Pennsylvania and buy an old picture. Then, when you get it home, you want to take it out of it's old, dirty frame. While taking the picture out, you notice some old paper between the backing and the picture. When you take that "old paper" out and unfold it, you find you have a copy of the Declaration of Independence.

You are thrilled by this discovery but don't know if it is real. So, you take it to whoever an authority is and they declare the piece is real. Now, do you have it professionally framed and conserved or do you cut it up into little pieces and insert it into sports card packs???

Don't get me wrong, I am all for making money but there is a right way and a wrong way and to me destroying history is the wrong way. As far as originality goes, just ask automobile collectors. They have a saying that goes something like, "A car can be restored 100 times but it is only original once".

David

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Posted By: barrysloate

I know that, but let's tackle this from another angle. If buyer and seller need some type of gauge to determine the value of a sheet, there is nothing wrong with using the sum of the parts as a guideline. However, the likelihood is a sheet would not generate any individual gradable cards at all, as all the edges would reveal fresh cuts. And even if somehow you could pass the cards through the grading process, the chances of every card coming back a 9 would be about one in a million. There would have to be some blemishes, light wrinkles, or fraying in a 75-100 year old sheet. So while a few cards might come out pristine, the majority wouldn't.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Thanks for your response. I would, though, like to address a couple of points.

First, unlike something like the Declaration of Independence (the example you give), uncut sheets were originally manufactured to be cut up, so I'm not sure if doing it after the fact is as egregious a destruction of history as you imply.

Second, to be perfectly clear, I posed this question not with the intention of buying sheets to cut them up but rather to get some idea how the market would value them. It seems to me that IF sheets could be cut up and the cards slabbed, then, even though I would not be the one to do it, because presumably somebody else would, that other person would set the floor of the sheet's market value -- the break value of the individual slabbed cards, perhaps adjusted somewhat to factor in the risk associated with cutting it up.

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Posted By: leon

My guess is that if a sheet of 30 Goudeys were cut up, depending on the sheet, and they all got 9's and 10's....they would be worth more individually due to the registry. If it was a more obscure set, or run of the mill current one, then the opposite might be true. Great question posed....best regards

ps...Corey- show us some memoribilia

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Assuming that 9's exist of each card, and because of the extreme rarity of the uncut sheet, why not simply 'set' the value at 130% of the break up value - say averaging grades of 8's - and explaining the high risk of not achieving near those results overall if cutting up each card and the chance of non-grades to boot, thereby incentivizing retention of the sheet as a whole.
I mean, if you are the person who owns the piece, it is not the buyer who sets the price but merely what he is willing to pay for it. You don't have to sell it for that, but can wait for a buyer who similarly understands your way of thinking and is willing to pay the price you determine.
That way, a market for such pieces could be set (130% or any percentage over 100% break-up) and hopefully set precedence that will encourage long term preservation of such unique hobby items.

JMO.

Regards
Daniel

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Posted By: JimB

I remember about 7 or 8 years ago Mastro auctioned off a high-grade group of T204s which they said came from an uncut sheet that Frank Nagy bought and cut up. SGC (or its earlier incarnation) graded them. PSA would not grade them. They were real beauties. I bet a lot of them have crossed over to PSA by now.
JimB

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Posted By: leon

I don't condone cutting full sheets of vintage cards up and have never done it. I like my full strips and think they are much better as they are....regards

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Posted By: barrysloate

Would anybody who purchased a rare sheet at auction, say for tens of thousands of dollars, dare take the chance of cutting it up, knowing that the cut cards could potentially be worth just a fraction of the cost of the sheet? So I think it is entirely theoretical.

Edited to say Jim and I were posting at the same time, and after reading his post, I will assume the Ramlys were cut up at a time when the stakes were lower and sheets weren't all that expensive. And if those cards were graded, it was another example of carelessness, because an examination of the edges would have revealed freshly cut cards.

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Posted By: Dylan

Realisticaly speaking, uncut sheets of vintage cards are very rare, and have significant value due to their rarity. While it may be true that IF, and its a big if, all the cards on the sheet were pristine, and IF you got SGC or PSA to grade them, which I believe their policy is not to slab cards that haven't been factory cut in the first place, the sum of it parts may be worth more then the piece as a whole. But uncut sheets are large and therefore its the norm to see edge, corner, and surface wear unless it was preserved from the moment it came off the printing press, which is highly unlikely. Suppose such a sheet did exist though I would find it improbable that they would be encapsulated anything but authentic. Not to mention that having the nicest uncut sheet of goudeys or D303's known of would fetch a hefty sum at any major auction house.
---edited to fix grammor---

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I think the valuation is simply not a realistic thing to determine based on the slabbed values of the component parts because the rarity is off the scale.

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Posted By: JimB

Barry,
I seem to remember in the description that at the time, as you mentioned, nobody placed a premium on uncut sheets as they do today. I would never advocate cutting up a sheet either.
JimB

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Posted By: barrysloate

If Frank Nagy did it, we could be talking 1960's or even earlier.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

There are dealers who are cutting up vintage sheets and getting the cards slabbed. Lots of money in it or they would not be doing it.

Greg

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Posted By: barrysloate

Greg- what kind of vintage sheets are we talking about, because there just aren't a lot of them out there. There was a bunch of E93 partial sheets sold recently. Are those the ones? Also, how is it that the grading services are not inspecting the edges of the cards and seeing fresh paper that is not the same as the front and back?

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Why is it that strip cards with razor sharp corners and edges (being graded as 8's or higher) can pass the scrutiny of the grading companies. Those cards were hand cut at some point in time so how is it that the grading services grade those cards. Not to try and give anyone any ideas but...
people can give the more valuable cards an "oversize" cut so that the cards wont be rejected for being too small. The larger borders make for a better chance of being graded. There are also ways to may near perfect cuts with lasers. How does someone determine "fresh" cut paper from paper that has been cut many years ago? Especially on a really clean card.

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Posted By: Steve Dawson

Fred,

My understanding is that the grading companies will grade a single hand-cut strip card (or 1970's Hostess card, etc), but not a Topps, Bowman, Goudey, et al. hand-cut post-issue from a sheet for the following reason...

The strip, Hostess etc. card was originally issued in a strip, panel, etc., and the collector was to cut the cards apart. Therefore, the card was "correctly" issued and cut. It doesn't matter how long it took for the card to be cut off the strip or panel.

The Topps, Bowman, Goudey, etc. card was meant to be originally issued as a single card, not in uncut form. So therefore, a card cut post-production from a sheet was not "correctly" issued in the first place, as it was not cut by the issuing company and put in a pack or whatever.


Just my understanding and thinking about the grading process.


Steve

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Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)

Barry, I think that the E93 partial sheets were blank backed.

It really comes down to how the cuts look. I think that it would very difficult to imitate a vintage cut.

To answer the question, it is obvious that the market values sheets much less than what their PSA9/PSA10 cards would fetch. There have been several Goudey sheets sold that would confirm this.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Harry- you are absolutely correct, so that leaves us with a very small population of uncut sheets. Greg, is this confidential or could you share it with us?

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Posted By: JimB

Those recently auctioned partial E93 sheets are not in decent enough condition to make it worthwhile.
JimB