Board activity as of late

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Posted By: leon

Hmmm...I get put into a little bit of a difficult position sometimes. There is no doubt anything I say will have some folks upset at me. Won't be the first or last time. This board is run in a fair manner, I hope, with the primary focus of pre-war baseball cards and related topics (see first line at top of page). I try not to censor anything if at all possible. I think I have deleted about 1 thread that was on topic, in the last several months. I explained myself the day after. With that being said if you don't think these subjects are pre-war baseball card related I disagree. Heck, I sold a PSA 8 T206 common last night for over 2k. I think that's crazy but we're all crazy, definitely me included. The board will get back on track quickly just as it did a few weeks ago when there were the same cries to shut it down for a time. I am a little tired of all of the negativity too. Why is it this way? Money, passion, ego, human nature etc etc... I do believe there will be a response very soon from a grading company, and besides that thread, there probably won't be anymore allowed pertaining to these subjects for a time. We have more than enough going already. Maybe a few folks need to take a some days away if they are that stressed. It's ok the board will be here when you are a little more calm. I think some of these conversations have positive effects on the hobby and I honestly think there have been many peoples eyes that have opened a little wider due to them. That is a good thing. I still enjoy collecting and look forward to many more happy years of it...Thanks my friends.....

edited to say that there won't be any "new" threads allowed to be started...the board should not be "taken over" by one subject, imho...that is what I am trying to prevent...not sure if I am winning or losing though

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Posted By: joe

Leon I agree, see my post under Auction houses selling their own item.

Joe

Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: Bobby

Leon,

It seems like the board has become a witch hunt and altough important this needs to be addressed it is going a little over board. To me it seems the general rule here has always been buy the card and not the slab so if that is the theory or policy then the uproar should not be as vocal as it seems to be at the moment.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

The witch hunt has some very pointed questions related to our hobby. I think the questions are valid but it would be best done in a more controlled format. Perhaps we can open up a new section within our "friendly" confines of this forum, something like the BST or links page, but the focus would be on special topics. In this case topics/questions related to auction houses and grading companies.

FORMAT:

Invite all companies to participate.

Have the board determine which questions to ask the companies.

Allow the companies to answer/respond.

Post all responses at the same time.

Have one round of rebuttal quetions (again the questions would be determined by the board).

End of discussion.


BASIC RULES:

The board selects the questions and rebuttal questions.

Nobody but the moderators are allowed to respond on the thread. The only reason for this is to keep the thread focused and not have the companies/participants feel like they are going to get lynched.

This format may keep the companies/participants coming back to participate in future forums focused on their hobby specialties. This board could truly have a positive influence on the hobby. It could be "the place" on the web where tough questions and interesting issues are addressed by hobby related companies.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

In fact.

Of the posts currently on the first page, 34 threads have nothing to do with the current issues being chased up regarding card alteration by auction houses and the idea of ownership of material by the auction house selling it. That's out of 50. And 5 of those threads have no posts as they await the answers from the auction companies.
Just wondering, instead of being uncomfortable with this current issue, you might be more involved with the other issues up for discussion?

And though you may find the topic uninteresting, don't assume it to be unimportant. So far, it has only been a couple of days, and the information that has arisen has astounded many in the hobby, and these are long, long, long time participants. Please don't ask those who would wish to try and do something good for the hobby, to just shut up because the issue is not one you have interest in. Maybe allow us just a couple more days, out of, say, the next 100 years, to hopefully try and do something really positive for all collectors, whether you understand that to be truth or not.

Sincerely
Daniel Enright

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Well, if you want to bury this topic I suggest you follow Judge Dred's recommendations. The topic will die, life will go on and the hobby will be all the poorer for it. And the people who hate graded cards can celebrate and talk again about how they love the hobby more than us and it serves us right while at the same time content in their minds that they killed the opportunity for fundamental change.

This isn't just a side topic--this is the crucial issue facing the hobby today.

Jim

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Posted By: leon

With all due respect, it is imporant, but certainly not crucial to me. I don't collect high grade cards and quite frankly don't give a rats ass if a minor wrinkle was taken out of one of my vg cards. I think it's crucial for you, and high grade collectors, but not so much for a lot of us. It's a problem and that's why I have let it go. Just not as big a problem for a lot of us....I really want to get back to talking about what I love to collect, the cards.....so will be pushing a little to get back to that enviable place. I will definitely let the answers come out and so forth...but I am pushing to get back to the cards...Thanks for your understanding..

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Leon,

With all due respect it not just about the wrinkles. Please read my post again. Its about trimming, restoration, disclosure, a code of ethics for the hobbhy, dealers signing on to this--Its the central issue facing the hobby.

Dave,

To address your post on my locked thread, I think that over time virtually all cards of value will be graded. The ungraded cards will largely be ones that have been altered but cannot get into a graded holder.

Will graded cards go down in value--certainly if collectors lose confidence in the ability of the grading companies ability to detect alterations they will--which is why serious collectors appreciate what I am doing here.

Jim

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

And, I am sure their are some others (albeit a few) on this Forum salute you, too.

JIM C

Let's face it.....many of us "lost confidence in the grading industry" a very long time ago....
Starting with the "altered" Wagner.....and then the "faked-up" Joe Doyle error (that was
"professionally" graded) and the numerous mis-labelled Graded cards that certainly question
the integrity of the Grading industry.

I have cracked open graded cards ("5's" and"6's"), only to find out that they didn't pass
muster for even VgEx candidates.

So, once again, I ask you.....who are you kidding ? ?

And, are you a lawyer;and, what authority gives you the legal right to conduct this inquiry ? ?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Ted,

Who am I kidding????

Who are you kidding????

Are you oblivious to the outpouring of support for this effort????

And this excludes the mountain of e-mails that I am getting at home from people who don't post here.

You can still have your topics you want to chat about--I will never respond but it doesn't mean you don't have the right to post them?

Read Daniel's response--the majority of posts are still about what they have always been about here.

I am trying to take the initiative to clean up the hobby and it has overall been met with much enthusiasm--however there is this small group who hates graded cards and believes we are not as passionate as they are about the hobby.

Jim Crandell

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I remain astonished... those crying (not tears, but as in "hue and cry") about grading of cards, and auction folks cleaning or improving the appearance of cards before grading or regrading.... What will happen is nothing. And if I'm wrong, if something does happen, it will backfire on them. A line will be drawn on a calendar, and all cards slabbed before that date will be suspect (and for good reason). Folks getting those pretty cards in old slabs regraded will be shocked at the true condition of their cards, and they will regret this entire mess.

Knowing this won't change how folks feel or think, again I say that if folks would learn about cards, and collect cards, not slab labels, this problem would be alleviated.

I was going to post a thread about stock certificates for card distributors, I have a DeLongs and American Caramel. But I am taking Ted's and DJ's thoughts to heart, I'll check this site out in January and see if things have gotten back on track, that is a track more to my interests.

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Posted By: T206Collector

Thank you Leon and Ted for hitting the nail on the head.

It is impossible for me to read any of these posts without thinking that the high grade collectors are trying to save the integrity of their collections given the thousands they've poured into PSA high grade holders, when there are a very good many of us that think it was crazy to do that because of all of the concerns now being raised.

I don't think they're trying to clean up the hobby so much as they are worried about the state of their collections. I also think that such puritanical views towards collecting are only widely accepted by the high grade collectors, who collect high grade cards for reasons that many don't subscribe to for reasons other than wealth management.

From a personal standpoint, I don't buy PSA/SGC/GAI 7 or higher because I presume impermissible alteration, notwithstanding what a grading company says.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Frank, I consistently resent the implication that because I choose to have some of my cards professionally graded that I somehow don't know - or don't care - about the actual cards. It's insulting, and frankly I'm tired of reading it. If you don't want to embrace grading that is entirely within your rights. But please stop insulting those of us that do. It's tiring, it's presumptuous, it's misinformed, it's insulting, and frankly, it's boring. I don't recall anyone here EVER getting on you because you choose not to grade your cards. And yet virtually every time I read a post from you I need to sift through your invective about how the way I've chosen to build some of my collection is wrong. Please. You're more intelligent than that. You have more to offer. How about sharing some of that knowledge instead of insulting me for not having it?

As far as the issue in general, I don't see where legality, or the need to be a lawyer, enters into this. This is an issue of consumer confidence, and I think a lot of people support this effort - those of us who understand that this issue doesn't only affect collectors of high-grade, slabbed cards in particular. Sure, I could do without the drama and the multiple threads and the inciteful questions from every collector with an axe to grind or an agenda to push, and I think that's what Leon is getting at in this thread. But the issue itself is about people wanting to know what they're buying. Nothing more, nothing less, and I don't see harm in asking the questions.

-Al

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Posted By: T206Collector

Al,

I share your views with respect to the "grader-haters," but like I said in a previous thread, to me it is very simple:

(a) If the alteration is 100% undetectable, what you don't know can't hurt you (or the resale value); and

(b) If the alteration can be detected, then if it is in an SGC holder, SGC will give you your money back.

Why does the card collecting world need more? The only problem, in my opinion, is if you have a lot of money invested in cards not graded by a company that offers such a money-backed guarantee.

Paul

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

1st.....you said...."there is this small group who hates graded cards"....this is not really so.
Some of us have Graded cards in our collections and some of us are not adverse to acquiring
Graded cards......which we usually crack open and insert the cards in plastic sheets in our albums.

So, who are you to pre-judge how we think and how we collect BB cards ?
I, for one, have been in this hobby for over 30 years, and I really resent your un-informed opinions
of my collecting practices.

Now, I gave two significant and questionable Professionally Graded examples, the "famous" Wagner
and the "infamous" Joe Doyle error. Can you please address these two examples ?

And, given these, how can we ever really have 100% certainty and confidence that the Grading
industry is providing us a valid product......can you answer that please ?

Also, I asked you if you are a lawyer by profession....and, I think a lot of us would like to know that ?
Can you please provide an answer to this ? ?

We have a lot of lawyers on this Forum, and if I am not mistaken, the area you are "treading" on, in
conducting this inquiry, has a lot of legal ramifications. Which, I don't think anyone here has considered.

TED Z

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

I am a lawyer, and Ted with due respect I don't know what you are talking about, why does Jim need to be a lawyer to ask questions of baseball card dealers? I really don't get it.

On a related note, it seems to me if there are folks that don't like the questions being asked, or don't care, they should just not read these threads. When I see a thread that doesn't interest me, or indeed one I think is stupid, I don't jump on the thread to bash it. So why do people feel compelled to bash Jim?

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Posted By: Jay

Leon--Although the vast majority of my collection is not slabbed I still think the points that Jim has raised are important to the hobby and, within limits, he should be allowed to keep raising these and related issues. I think the questions raised so far are less about the grading companies (they can only grade what they can see) and more about the ethics of those auction houses and dealers that we all frequent. These aren't just graded card issues; these are hobby issues. Almost any industry has codified what practices are generally acceptable and what practices are not. The collectibles industry needs the same thing and this could be the start of a movement to establish such a code. It may stub a few toes along the way but I believe that the end result will be a net benefit for all of us.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Ted,

I am not a lawyer, I am asking people for responses to basic questions and being very respectful in doing it.

I started collecting cards 50 years ago so please don't lecture me about your time in the hobby.

There is a small group that hates graded cards--its led by Frank--ask him.

No doubt there are altered cards in graded company holders and perhaps the two you mentioned are among them.

We will never have 100% certainty but by raising these issues, getting dealer responses about their practices, establishing a code of conduct bin the industry, publicizing those dealers that endorse our criteria and increasing awareness among grading companies about our concerns we will make a difference. Heck, we have already made a difference.

Collect what you want and post what you want but for those of us that want to make a difference in the future of the hobby, please go back to what you were doing previously.

Jim

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Jay,

Exactly.

That is the middle-end game here--to bring that about.

I have spelled that out in black and white--that this in the longer term is about an industry code of ethics--not just taking out a wrinkle. However first we have fact-finding which most of us find fascinating.

Jim

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Why the discord here? Why should what we collect interfere with the quest for honesty?

It boils down to this: I am a collector. I am concerned about cheating in this hobby and no I am not a "high grade collector"...the great majority of my T206 cards are PSA 4 -5. I have bid with many auction houses and that gives me a right to ask questions. I am not a lawyer. I am not conducting an inquiry. Neither is Jim. To suggest that a customer of an auction house asking questions about that company's policies has "legal ramifications" is ridiculous.

If you find these threads bothersome, walk on by.

Frank

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Posted By: joe brennan

I understand the passion that this subject brings up.
The one glaring omittion in all of this is the alterer himself.
As long as there is money to be made, thieves will continue to alter cards.
If one method is detected they will try another until that what they alter cannot be detected.
We are not talking about collectors who alter, rather thieves who alter to fool grading companies and steal from collectors.
No matter what business there is, ( and yes this is a business) people will try to bend the rules and will get away with it from now until the end of time.
No matter how much fist pounding and chest beating goes on about grading companies, they are what they are.
As long as graded material is the guide for prices it shall be used for sales on line because we cannot always touch or see what we buy before hand any more.
It a human industry, filled with human opinions and human mistakes. As long as we all know that before hand, we can hopefully enjoy collecting what we like.

People said it was a million dollar wound. But the government must keep that money, cause I ain't never seen a penny of it.

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Posted By: T206Collector

I think it is a grading card issue. Indeed, card grading has become so popular precisely because of the issues raised here. It may be the most important issue facing the hobby today -- but it was also the most important issue facing the hobby 20 years ago when PSA started. These issues made PSA relevant.

The grading companies have established a code of conduct in what they will grade. Without third party grading there is no way to enforce the code of conduct. If you don't like the fact that PSA/SGC/GAI will slab cards with erasures or removed creases, then lobby PSA/SGC/GAI. Then do not buy ungraded cards from dealers unless you personally trust them.

If you put down more than $50 on a card that has not been graded by a company with a money back guarantee -- in an auction house, at a show, etc. -- then you are operating at your own risk.

In short, the "code of conduct" is here already precisely because of the concerns raised on this Board. If you don't like the Generally Accepted Grading Principles adopted by PSA/SGC/GAI then you need to lobby your third-party graders for a change in their policies.

What's wrong with the following from SGC's website?

SGC Rejection Codes:
Code Description Tag
A Altered ALT
B Bleached BLE
C Color Added COL
E Power Erased ERA
G Minimum Graded Not Met MIN
L Too Large to Holder (Oversized) LRG
N Miscut MIS
M Cannot/Do Not Grade NO
P Pressed PRS
R Rebuilt REB
S Too Small to Holder (Short) SML
T Evidence of Trimming TRM
X Counterfeit COU
Z Resurfaced SUR

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Posted By: JK

I am not a high grade collector. Nor do I really care deep down if one of my sgc 50 cards has had a pencil mark erased or a wrinkle taken out if it is something that will never come back (big if, I know). Nevertheless, I appreciate what Jim is trying to do. I'd like to have a little more faith that all of the cards Im buying are not altered in some way or another.

As I mentioned in a previous thread I have a much bigger problem with Frank and Ted continually bashing us collectors who like graded cards. How arrogant to assume that we know less or appreciate the hobby less because we collect graded cards. I am also knowlegeable about the issues I collect (and will learn about those I dont before I do). If Frank and Ted spent more time trying to share their professed knowledge rather than berating those of us who collect graded cards we would all be better off. As I asked in another post, if we are supposed to be here to share knowledge, why is it, Frank and Ted, that neither of you even bothered to respond to Al C's post regarding (I believe) T207 card backs that he discussed in another one of Jim's threads? Once again, I respect Franks and Ted's position on graded cards even if I dont share it. But I really dont need to hear about it anymore.

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Posted By: Mike

I am tired of this as well.... Sometimes I buy raw cards. Sometimes I buy graded cards. Sometimes I buy raw cards and grade them, Sometimes I buy raw cards and don't grade them. But in spite of all their flaws and problems, I probably would not be shelling out big dollars on many cards if it were not for the grading services. The bottom line is people need to educate themselves. It is no different in the art world, the antique car world, etc. etc. But getting back to cards, it was amazing how many cards that I had bought in the very early ninties, that I later tryed to have graded, that turned out to be trimmed. Bought them at the nationals, from dealers we all know. Did they do it to me on purpose? Did they not know? who knows.....I won't buy from them any more. I guess if I have to choose between not having them, and having them, I will have them.(The graders) I tend to buy higher graded cards. Not for investment reasons, as I rarely sell anything. But because they are harder to locate, and more of a challenge. Quite frankly, I like nice looking cards. Pin holes, large tears, round corners, and creases don't turn me on that much. I pass on many grade 5's. in hopes of locating a 7. Obviously, sometimes a 1 or 2 is necessary, because that is all there is. Sometimes a 2 is great. But cutting people down because they choose to collect higher graded material, seems rather childish to me....who cares.

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Posted By: Joe Tocco

I'm shocked that some people apparently fail to realize that this issue here is much more global than pressing out wrinkles. The issue is the integrity of the major players in our hobby, and that effects every one of us. Transparency in the operations of major auction houses is a good thing, even if you don't have the money to buy from them. Transparency in the standards of grading companies is a good thing, even if you don't use their services. Transparency directly relates to collector confidence, and collector confidence leads to a stronger hobby for all of us. Maybe I'm overstepping my bounds here as an infrequent poster, but I feel strongly this effort should be seen through to its end.

Joe

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Joe is right. There should be no sacred cows here. If fraud is afoot, I don't give a damn if it's some sleazeball in the shadows doing it or some "big" name in the industry. I have found that some of the most purportedly decent and ethical men have been deeply involved in fraud. These are tough questions to be asked and because of the money and importance to the industry, they should be answered. I think we need to differentiate between the ins and outs of the auction process and altering cards, however. Let's focus on what auction houses are doing to their cards before selling them and the relationships they have with the graders. Let's focus on those that are doing the altering themselves. Of course, it's easy to lie but eventually someone will become disgruntled and rat the card doctors and crooked auctioneers out. If an auction house does not want to be bothered answering these questions, we should boycott their auctions. Remember: we have the power to alter their behavior by not giving them money, it is as simple as that. I have also found that the greediest of people are usually the most likely to commit fraud or allow fraud to go on during their watch. Let's keep the heat on and act, as much as we can, in tandem.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Hey T206, i think it is important that someone have a direct go at this question or statement of being re card alteration, as it is one you have made regularly - and quite fairly, through every thread that has come up the last year or so regarding the topic:


"......... to me it is very simple:

(a) If the alteration is 100% undetectable, what you don't know can't hurt you (or the resale value); and

(b) If the alteration can be detected, then if it is in an SGC holder, SGC will give you your money back.

Why does the card collecting world need more? The only problem, in my opinion, is if you have a lot of money invested in cards not graded by a company that offers such a money-backed guarantee."



So,

I would begin by asking why we collect vintage cards to begin with.
Foremostly, I would hazard a guess, is the very story of baseball itself, of the people and players whose life stories were the very fabric of the game at its inception. Indeed, in many ways they were the game, and living at a time when larger than life characters were to be enjoyed and celebrated - unlike today when they are eschewed for being selfish or detracting from the group efforts of the ultimate acheivement, so called 'winning'. Winning what, I'm not quite sure. Certainly not my heart, as the game today holds as much interest for me as a block of 10 week old cheese.

And then would come the cards themselves.
How many times have you looked at your 60 plus year old cards, just savouring everything about them. Their shapes, the color, the image, the images behind the image, the time stamp on the back or on the flip that catapaults you to that different age, and most importantly i think, their imperfections. Isn't it the rounding of corners, or nicks in them, or staining, or rubs, or toning, or smell, or feel, or texture, or thickness or thinness....I mean they captivate you. And they got to you by going through hands untold, and stories untold, and now they are yours. And everything that they are screams survival, so you love them.
And then, through all this texture, you come across a card you know, except his/her face is different. She's still sharp around the edges, her surface and image jump off the surface, unbent and feels solid, and you just marvel......how? how did she make it? and there are all the same untold stories, but they seem all the more amazing becuase it just seems so incredibly unlikely, truly, a miracle in the paper world. And again, everything she is screams survival, so you love her.
And in the midst of all the variations that exist for every card in every condition, every single one of them is a story. A brilliant, never to be truly known but fun to daydream story, and you are the custodian.

So, when you grab a wipe to clean off a booger, you remove a story. When you take bleach and whiten, there goes a story again. Trim an edge, and 60 years vanish. And, when you press and remove a wrinkle, it is as though to me you are trying to remove the laugh lines around my wifes eyes, as each one was got by love and incredibly story of survival and triumph, and seperates her life story from every other beautiful lady on the earth. I don't want shiny new cards in holders that will survive into the next millenia, and worse, I don't want to create new looking cards from stock that is so much more beautiful in it's exact form. If you make every card look like a 3 to a 7, where are the stories?
That isn't license to disrespect perfect looking vintage cards. If they survived that way naturally, its a truly incredibly story. And it isn't license to have a go at people who spend a whole lot of dough on them. Thats just pathetic and arrogant and mean spirited.

So, perhaps you don't care if every card looks roughly the same. But we do. So we can collect poor/fair cards, or any others whose story appeals to us, and pass them along to someone else who understands as we do.

If it's just that what you don't hear or see doesn't hurt you, well that speaks very much to a societal view. Many can be happy if the world directly about them is nice, and not be overly bothered by others stories. And then there are people who feel and listen to the larger world around them and its problems and suffering, and wish not to block it out and would have the rules of behaviour look after everyone, even if they never meet them. And they know they can't save everyone, or stop the hurt, but that doesn't stop them wanting it so, and doing what they feel they can to help create that world.

So, please.
Don't judge what you truly seem unable or unwilling to understand.
None of what is trying to be achieved will ruin your collecting, unless your aims are to create 2006 topps cards out of 1909 stock. The efforts can only try and help, and preserve the best we can. And those trying to do the wrong thing, well, at least they will have opposition and need to weasel even further into the dark to continue their acts of greed and avarice.

Sincerely
Daniel Enright

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Dan, I would have no problem if the story about how the booger got on the card is lost...

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

JOSH

One thing you cannot accuse me of is...."not willing to share my expertise" with people on
this Forum. I have been on for less than 2 years, and many have complimented me on the
many posts I have made regarding meaningful information on a variety of vintage card sets
And, I have made some negative comments regarding Grading industry; but, show me where
I have personally "bashed" (to use your word) collectors who mainly prefer Graded cards ?

Also, don't forget who instantly responded to you with copies or Lipset's E-card article from
an old BB Card mag.

Jim C

You are not shy about asking questions and demanding answers from people; however, I
asked you just a few questions and you really haven't answered any of them ? ?

And, I don't think I am lecturing you....that's your take.

I started collecting BB cards as a kid in 1947. Then after 4 years in the Air Force, and after
College, and while bringing up a family I returned to collecting BB cards. And, since I was
fortunate enough to recover my my collection from my youth.....I could say I have been with
this hobby for 60 years. But, then that's just incidental.

Look, you do your thing......I will continue to post the Threads on this Forum, that I believe
are worthwhile contributions regarding vintage cards.

Good bye....since you will not answer my questions....why should I waste my time with you.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Ted,

What question didn't I answer--lets see am I a lawyer--no--are there altered cards in holders--yes.

Its obvious there is overwhelming support on the boards for what I am trying to accomplish.

You shouldn't waste your time with this--you should post about vintage cards where you undoubtedly have a lot to add and stop criticizing what we are all trying to do where you have nothing.

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Posted By: Mike

I agree Jeff, I want no bodily fluids on any of my cards. My wife is a grade school teacher. I know of what I speak. ( An attempt at a little levity, for what is becoming another battle zone)

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Posted By: cmoking

Leon edited his original post and added:
"edited to say that there won't be any "new" threads allowed to be started..."

That's fine with me. I understand not wanting the forum to be overruun with threads on the same topic. For those of us that care, the threads exist and will continue. I really don't care much about the little arguments that arise in personalities (as can be seen on this thread). Those arguments aren't new, we can all read them every week. But I do hope more transparency comes out from the auction houses, that certainly happened with Mastro. Transparency is good for collectors.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

I appreciate your decision, and would just say that the only reason Mastro or any other company might feel compelled to change questionable practices is becuase of the stature of this site, and that the posts can be viewed and discussed live in such a public place. If you were to 'side-show' this issue to a seperate forum, or curb the discussion, what possible likelihood is there that any of these corporations will feel required to answer reasonable questions?

daniel

ps. Calvindog, maybe we can set a 3mm height limit over which you can topple said booger, and under which the snot remains grounded?

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Posted By: cmoking

As for low grade collectors not caring because they think this problem is only for the high grade collectors - don't forget about this card, with before, after and current scans. The card is curently in a PSA 2 holder, and is currently up for auction. If you were an interested buyer of the card, even if you didn't care about the number on the holder, would you care to know what it looked like when it was in its PSA 1MK incarnation? I care. If you don't, (in all sincerity), that's great for you. I do think most people do care. Unfortunatley the knowledge of the transformation in this particular card is an exception.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...for the response, Daniel. It was very well written and thought out. But I think it glosses over a major problem -- most of the alterations in the hobby have already taken place and we will never know about them. We will never know whether the vintage cards we collect today had erasures made or scrap book removed in the 1930's, 1940's, 1950's, etc.

To create the kind of plan for going forward that is being discussed today forgives all of the prior alterations, like a historical game of musical chairs, and leaves the current holder/possessor of the cards with a greater ethical obligation than existed years ago.

It would be great to understand the history behind the cards, but what is really going on here is certain people want to believe that their cards were preserved the best since 1909 or thereabouts. But there will never be a way to determine whether this history that you want to believe is the actual truth of the history of that card. The best we can hope for is a third-party service that does the best job possible certifying a standard that is acceptable to most vintage card collectors.

Just one more question please -- you may not like the "what you don't know won't hurt you" philosophy, but how do you possibly expect to know what has happened between 1909 and this very minute with respect to your cards?

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Posted By: JK

Ted,

My comments regarding "bashing" are probably more accurately levied at Frank - though I havent gone back to read all of the posts again. All I know is he continually makes snide comments about our knowledge about cards, our enjoyment of the hobby, etc. I know I dont interrupt his threads to tell him that he is engaging in a worthless exchange of irrelevant information because the grading companies have done all of my work for me.

I also dont believe my post states that you never contribute. To the extent it did, that was not my point. I know that you do contribute and yes, you did dig out that article for me which I very much appreciated. However, my problem is with the willingness to make repeated posts on threads about grading while many of the threads dealing with topics that you and others presumably would be more interested in reading/contributing to receive luke warm responses. To be clear, Im also not suggesting that it is your's or Frank's sole responsibility to respond to all threads. It just seems like there are many threads that seek out others to contribute actual information regarding the cards and they dont get much, if any, response.

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Posted By: T206Collector

It's not that we wouldn't want to know the history of a card's condition before every purchase; it's that there is no way to ascertain the history of your cards. For example, we don't know when the crease was first made; we don't know when the mark was first put on it; we don't know how the corners were worn; etc. We don't know how many owners the Lajoie has had from PSA 1 MK to PSA 2. We don't know who made the erasure. All I am saying is it doesn't matter who did what when, by currently sitting in a PSA 2 holder, we know that the card has a lot of condition issues -- one of which may very well be an erasure on the reverse.

The best we can hope for is a third-party service that upholds the standards that a majority of us accept for grading cards; and then consistently grades them that way. If PSA is your chosen service, then lobby PSA to uphold the standards that you want and then avoid making purchases that are not certified by PSA.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

you're right. I can in absolutely no way be sure of how the cards we have have been cared for, or altered.
I also cannot be sure the sistine chapel was not repainted, shakespeare's works not re-written, my dream 58 corvette not a glue together job chasis and pieces from other cars, my children not hit because there are times when they are out of my sight, my remeberances of history inaccurate because everyone else has their own slant, etc..
You do the best you can.
I think, with the current card alteration debate, we are attempting the best we can do. Highly imperfect, but trying nonetheless.
I also am perfectly happy going forward from this date as year dot in the asolute knowledge of what has happened to the cards in terms of alteration. Lets call the past the past, and nothing we can do about it. The present and future, as Rahm Emanuel said on the Daily show last night, those are things we can affect. If the cards are agreed to be in a known condition today, and we can prevent or REDUCE ENORMOUSLY going forward the cards that get altered, that is a huge step in mainting a reasonably honest story of the cards and their history.
If restoration is the way to go, ala comics and paintings etc., until they are all in pristine original condition, I'd rather buy a reprint for $2.

Sincerely
Daniel

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Posted By: T206Collector

Daniel,

Thank you again for a thoughtful response. I disagree with you in the value of such an effort, but we are in agreement on the fact that we can only impact the present and future. Given that, I still believe that having your cards graded by a reputable source, utilizing a standard that you believe in, is the best way to preserve that reasonably honest story you want to achieve.

Paul

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Well I'm a state court district judge, been on the bench 13 years, so I guess that qualifies as "a lawyer" for some of you. Generally, non-attorneys dislike lawyers and don't think they know more than other folks, and being a lawyer doesn't impress other lawyers, either. It usually makes your parents and clients feel better about you, but that is about it.

Now, to be clear, and without intending to suggest that anyone is unintelligent generally, or in their collecting habits... the wisest, most sagicious baseball collector who collects graded cards does so at his own peril if he doesn't study the card instead of only the label. And if these brilliant, intelligent baseball card mavens would study the card itself and ascertain a return policy, then they would have fewer problems. I've never intended to suggest that collectors of graded cards are ignorant. I do recognize that some of you who think that was my intention have attacked me personally, and when I pointed that out it was acknowledged that I didn't personally attack back, and that the attack on me remained without appology. So it seems some slab collectors lack civility. Civility is something this board won't impart upon participants.

One of my favorite cards is worth about $4. If my house caught afire, I'd definitely want to carry it to safety, much more so than other cards that are much more valuable. I'd move it before my T200 premium. But I don't collect cards because of their value. They aren't an investment (and I don't want to get that crap started again). I collect cards because of their association with the history of the game. I find that more enjoyable than collecting a card because of some number assigned the card when it was slabbed by someone else. I don't "get" that, and I understand that some of you don't share my approach. In the entire scheme of things, folks starving in Africa seem a bit more significant that someone bleaching a T206, soaking it for a long time, gradually stretching out the borders, then trimming the edges so the card is still "large" but now with sharp corners, so the card can end up in a PSA 8 holder. And my $4 card is less important that that.

I don't lose my retirement savings in the Chicago commodities market because I don't do any investing there. I don't consider myself sufficiently informed to do that successfully. I do think I know a bit about old baseball cards, so I don't mind spending a few dollars there. I trust my opinions and knowledge about the cards MUCH more than I do any of the grading folks. I think that a lot of the old cards that have 7s, 8s, and 9s on them would not regrade that way if graded again and if the grader were to look for indications of bleaching soaking stretching recutting and the like. A well soaked, well stretched card is thinner, any of you use a micrometer lately on a T206? I have... but it is difficult to measure the thickness of a slabbed card unless you liberate the little fellow.

So I do appologize to anyone who thought I have ever suggested they were unintelligent because they collected graded cards. Sincerely.

And if some sort of commission or standard for grading-slabbing takes hold, then you guys need to send everything in to be regraded. Heaven help you, the only thing worse than paying to have a card graded by someone else would be to do it twice.

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Posted By: PC

Been gone for a while, but I see Frank and Ted are spreading their cheer again. And for the record, I also agree completely with Jim's and Josh's assessment of their behavior. Not sure what their problem is, but I got tired of reading Frank's insults and even more tired of Ted's aggressive posts and endless self-aggrandizement, so I stopped participating on the main board and have been generally skipping past most threads on my way to the BST.

I agree completely with what Jim is trying to do, and I commend him for doing it (I also commend the auctioneers for participating). This is stating the obvious -- Jim is one of the premier collectors among us, and if he has concerns with the hobby (in general) and his collection (in particular) then I want to hear about it. To be honest, I've personally read enough about Piedmont and Sovereign backs ... I already knew there were a lot of them. But the conversation among the auctioneers and bigtime collectors like Jim, Hal, Leon, Jeff and Barry is just starting, and this is a unique opportunity for the rest of us to listen in. Keep it coming guys, because all of it helps the hobby.

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Posted By: ramram

I'm in your "court" Frank (excuse the pun). Well said.

Rob M.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Frank:

Not that this is the thread for this, but I'd like to explain to you why I prefer to have some of my cards graded.

I have been collecting cards on and off for almost 30 years. I'm happy to say I do not wish I'd collected longer, because I'm happy to be 37 years old and don't want to wish any more years onto my age.

When I re-entered the hobby a few years ago, I was thrilled to discover the wide range of cards available on the internet, through various sources. I was simultaneously dismayed to re-discover the huge range in grades assigned to cards by sellers of raw cards. Cards described as NMT would arrive at my doorstep in EX condition. Cards described as EX would arrive in VG condition. And, once in a while, a card would be accurately described. Unfortunately, you can't always tell from a scan, and equally unfortunately, you can't always count on a seller to accept a return.

What I discovered was that if I purchased a particular card in, say, SGC 60, I could feel confident that I was going to get a card that was graded independently by someone other than the seller, that was reasonably close to EX condition. I also discovered that the third-party evaluation helped me if I was a seller, because buyers could trust my description of the card more. Sure, when I sell a graded card, I try and descibe it anyway (despite what it says on the flip), but the number sure makes people more confident.

The other thing I discovered was that I don't like the way cards look in plastic sheets in binders. I also don't like the way they look in card savers in a cardboard box. I LIKE the way they look in slabs, either in a box or elsewhere in my card room. I generally don't like to tuck my cards away in binders - I like to live in the middle of them, store them all around me, on display, like pictures. Whatever I am doing in my card room, I am always looking at cards. It's kinda cool. I'm talking on the phone, looking at Monty Ward or Charlie Comiskey or Mickey Mantle or Johnny Bench and I feel like I'm surrounded by history.

It's also sorta neat that I can put them in a set registry, so that if other people ask me what I have in my collection, I can point them somewhere on the internet where they can see for themselves.

And if I happen to be looking at a card and my clumsy hands drop it, or I drip some ice cream on it, or I have some dirt on my fingers, I don't have to freak out that I just damaged something that cost me a few hundred dollars. It's fairly well protected. It couldn't survive a house fire or a nuclear war or anything, but in the event of either one of those occurrences, I wouldn't be worried about my baseball cards anyway.

That's why I like graded cards. It has nothing whatsoever to do with slab collecting. And there's a lot of other people with equally valid reasons.

Sorry to get so off track, but I've been waiting for an opportunity to explain this, and this seemed like as good a time as any.

-Al

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Posted By: JimCrandell

PC,

Nice to hear from you again.

Getting around the obstacles on this board is tougher than fixing things in the hobby(did not mean you Leon).

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Posted By: Jeff Prizner

You're such a slab-head Al! Sure, those are all very valid reasons to get cards graded, but what do you do when you get the urge to touch, smell and taste your cards. You're SOL buddy!

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I eat plastic, Jeff. And I smoke the flips.

-Al

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Posted By: JimB

Frank said,
"I collect cards because of their association with the history of the game. I find that more enjoyable than collecting a card because of some number assigned the card when it was slabbed by someone else. "

Would all you slab collectors who collect cards because of the number assigned to the card when it was slabbed by someone else please identify yourselves?


Frank, if you are honestly not trying to be offensive, you are really not doing a good job.

JimB

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Posted By: T206Collector

[Would all you slab collectors who collect cards because of the number assigned to the card when it was slabbed by someone else please identify yourselves?]

I am trying to put together a complete set of T206 cards graded by SGC in 40/VG/3 condition or better. I think he was targeting this kind of practice. Sure I buy the card, but I also like numerical grades -- I just try to find cards that satisfy both SGC and me.

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Posted By: Mike

I couldn't care less what number gets assigned to it. In fact I don't recall ever looking at the numbers. Until now...Nope. Don't mean a thing. And why would they?

The grade, I do look at. Not the serial number. He wasn't clear on that.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Heck I am working on 150 vintage or semi-vintage sets in psa 8 or better so I qualify but I will generally pass on weak 8s or an expensive card that looks suspicious to me.