Questions for Doug Allen

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Doug,

We all appreciate your input to this board. As you know there is tremendous concern about card alteration in the hobby and as president of the leading auction house in the hobby would appreciate your responses to the following:

1)Rob Lifson recently described the altering of cards as an "epidemic". Do you agree with this and if so what are you doing to combat it?

2)Rob also said that some of the most sophisticated work on cards has been executed by employees of auction houses that also deal in cards. What is your reaction to this?

3)What will Mastronet and its employees do (if anything) to improve the condition of cards that are consigned to it? Please adress the following
--cleaning card--such as taking glue off
--taking out creases
--erasing pencil marks
--pressing cards
--trimming
--bleachoing/recoloring

4)Do you use restoration services on cards such as Paul Messier or Graphic Restoration and what exactly will they do for you?

Thanks for your attention to this and my best wishes for a successful auction.

Jim Crandell

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Posted By: George Counter

This one should cover #3 and #4
A fine courtesy from Jay Miller & Mastronet back in 2004

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1102513863/WHAT+IS+THE+KEELER+ROOKIE

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Posted By: barrysloate

Excellent questions Jim, and I for one will be following this thread closely.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

From my observations, Mastro uses someone to clean up some items. The cleaning that I am aware of has been on non-card items. I also see that they regularly disclose that items have been cleaned in the auction descriptions.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Disclosure of restoration is entirely acceptable. I believe Jim is concerned with the possibility that altered cards may have been graded and found their way into holders. This is what should concern anybody who has a lot of money invested in high grade cards. We all want to know whether these allegations can be substantiated or not.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I was merely offering relevant information, and not expressing my value judgment. If I did offer a opinion, I would have noted that said disclosure is good.

I do not know all that goes on at Mastro. However, I know that the main card guys are Pete Calderon, Kevin Struss and Derek Grady, who are all as reputable as there are. If the former head grader at SGC (Grady) is checking out the cards, that's as good as one can expect. Do I think all three would keep mum to collectors about nefarious practices? I do not.

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Good questions Jim. Unfortunately, I doubt that a response will be forthcoming.

Frank

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Posted By: Doug Allen

I would be happy to answer all of your questions......see responses below:

1)Rob Lifson recently described the altering of cards as an "epidemic". Do you agree with this and if so what are you doing to combat it?

I believe given the high value of graded cards the attempts to alter cards and get them graded is an epidemic. We basically do three things..(1) we handle a tremendous amount of raw cards so our experts including Derek, Kevin, Pete, Lee and now Joe examine raw cards prior to submission for grading to ensure they are original and unaltered, (2) We use two independent grading services to grade cards in order to get an independant opinion on the grade and (3) We review cards in their holder and if we have concerns with them we will not sell them...two quick examples (A)I have an "E" card of Young graded ExMt by a respected grading service. I will not sell it...I believe it to be trimmed...we are working to get the card bought back by the grading service (B) We have a 15 Cracker Jack graded NM-MT that has a pencil mark noticeable on the front of the players uniform. The grading company missed it. We are working with them to correct the error.

2)Rob also said that some of the most sophisticated work on cards has been executed by employees of auction houses that also deal in cards. What is your reaction to this?

I disagree with this. The only auction house that I know of that has employees that handle significant volumes of raw cards for grading is Mastro Auctions and I can tell you that we do not do "sophisticated work on cards". We service our customers, we maximize the grades but we do not do "sophisticated work".

3)What will Mastronet and its employees do (if anything) to improve the condition of cards that are consigned to it? Please adress the following

Let me first react to the general question. Mastro Auctions will take raw cards and prepare them to grade. In my mind what this includes are practices that are accepted by grading services suck as laying down corners that may have "flipped" during handling, removing wax residue from the surface of a card and pressing out a light wrinkle that does not break the surface of the card.

Here are my reactions to the following processes....

--cleaning card--such as taking glue off

I have no problem with removing paste that remains from album removal especialy vintage paste that rarely damages the surface of the card.

--taking out creases

I have no problem with taking out light creases or surface wrinkles that do not break the surface.

--erasing pencil marks

I have no problem erasing "light" pencil marks. I believe dark ones impact the surface of the cards and therefore are better off left alone.

--pressing cards

This needs to be defined. I have no problem laying down corners or "flips" caused by handling.

--trimming

I am totally against trimming cards

--bleachoing/recoloring

I am totally against bleaching/recoloring cards

4)Do you use restoration services on cards such as Paul Messier or Graphic Restoration and what exactly will they do for you?

We use Paul Messier for photo restoration which is disclosed.

We use Graphic Restoration to do restoration of display pieces which is disclosed.

We rarely use anyone to do work on cards...the one exception is the card with Glue that was removed from the surface which was talked about extensively on the Board. Although I stand by the process I do believe we made a mistake in not disclosing the work.

I hope I have been responsive to your questions.

All the best,
Doug

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Posted By: davidcycleback

So you don't deny bleachoing.

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Posted By: Jay

David--If you read what Doug says he indicates that he is against bleaching. Hats off to Doug Allen. One may agree or disagree with his positions but he is man enough to get on the board and spell them out.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

It was a joke.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

David, for what it's worth, I laughed.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Doug,

I appreciate your direct answers.

The one thing that surprised me was that you are willing to take out a surface wrinkle or a light crease. I would consider this card alteration and unacceptable.

Couple of more more questions if I may--how widespread do you think the issue is of trimmed cards in holders(GAI,SHC,PSA). A few or a large amount?

Secondly, has the ability of card restorers to get cards past the grading companies surpassed the ability of the grading companies to detect this.

Thank you again.

Jim

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

I too believe that removing even minor wrinkles comprises alteration. Doug, even if you disagree, you must admit that the question is both unsettled and important to collectors. That being said, why doesn't Mastro simply disclose the "work" performed on each card, so the collector can factor that into his bid?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Um, for the same reason that Mastro charges $75 for a catalogue and bumped its BP to 20% after consignment.....

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Posted By: Doug Allen

Here are the answers to your most recent questions.....

The one thing that surprised me was that you are willing to take out a surface wrinkle or a light crease. I would consider this card alteration and unacceptable.

Response - I agree if it is a deep crease that impacts the integrity of the paper or card stock....absolutely agree. If it does not compromise the integrity of the paper I don't have a problem with this.

Couple of more more questions if I may--how widespread do you think the issue is of trimmed cards in holders(GAI,SHC,PSA). A few or a large amount?

Response - I will only speak to SGC and PSA as they are the services that we use on a consistent basis. I don't believe the issue is widespread. I believe it happens. Actually, I have experienced both of them stepping up and buying back cards when it is clear they have made a mistake. I have witnessed this on many occasions.

Secondly, has the ability of card restorers to get cards past the grading companies surpassed the ability of the grading companies to detect this.

Response - I believe the good cards grading companies continually work to keep up with trends of restorers.....long ago card grading companies went way beyond just measuring cards to viewing the edges, the cut and the surface of the card. I agree the "doctors" are getting better but so are the grading companies.

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Posted By: Doug Allen

This is a forum to discuss Vintage Baseball Cards.

Individuals are posting legitimate questions and I am posting legitimate and honest responses. This answers come from a person who heads a company responsible for the sale of close to $50 million of sports collectibles annually, a great deal of which is comprised of vintage cards I believe I can add value to discussions. I have real life experience handling some of the best cards in the industry. In the last few years I have had the honor of wading through colletions built by hobby pioneers including but not limited to Richard Egan, Frank Nagy and Lionel Carter. Friends such as Leon, Brockelman, Brian Daniels, and many others know the passion I showed 20 years ago when I entered this hobby as a collector and how this has continued even to this day when as I have been able to turn my hobby and passion into my job.

My point....I don't appreciate cheap shots from the likes of Jeff Lichtman who never have anything positive to say.

Correct me if I am wrong folks but if my responding to legitimate questions allows people like this to make continual derogatory comments then I will gladly bow out.

Regards,
Doug

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

and thank you for your time, but would you please answer my previous question too?

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Posted By: Anonymous

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Posted By: Doug Allen

We will disclose work on cards that are altered. Perfect example the Altered Plank card in the current auction. Since we don't believe the work I previously described as alteration there is nothing to disclose. Since I don't believe removing wax from a card is alteration I don't want to get into decriptions like "Graded PSA 8 NM-MT light wax removed from surface and top right corner layed down"

By the way usually it is rare that high grade cards have light surface wrinkles or light creases....this is usually more common on cards that display advanced wear at which point the crease is consistant with the overall card.

The reason I state this is the number of high grade cards that display a surface wrinkle or crease is pretty minimal.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

Whew.....guess we know why Doug doesn't stop by for lengthy discussions anymore. I appreciate the candor and really only confirmed what we all suspected anyway. To think that other auction houses don't do some of the stuff Doug's talking about or worse would probably be incorrect as well......

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

I disagree. The comments here have not been unduly harsh. Moreover, the question is not what Mastro perceives to be alterations. If a seller believes that any change in condition to a card would reasonably and/or materially affect a buyer's decision to buy, he needs to disclose it. This board has certainly made it clear--many/most believe removal of a surface wrinkle is improper. Presumably, they also would want to know if such removal has taken place--I damn sure would. So Mastro does not get to define any sort of hobby standard that wrinkle removal is not an alteration as an excuse for not disclosing it (not just Mastro, but anyone).

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Posted By: Jay

Why is Doug the only one being put on the hot seat here? How about similar responses from Lelands, Heritage, REA, SCP/Sotheby, Memory Lane, Mountain High, Scott Gaynor, Barry Sloate, Hunts, etc. Lets see what the industry considers acceptable. While we are at it, I would also like to know if auction houses would be willing to disclose in their catalogs if they, or a member of their firm, have an ownership interest in any items in their auction.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

I detect some jealousy a little here. There are a couple a names above that Iam sure that would never disclose anything, but be one with a poke shot. I look forward to every Mastro auction. The way they go about our hobby is done with 1st CLASS.

Iam sure that some here NEVER bid on anything , but do not have
any problem on assuming how things go. I have had enough key situations to rely on my faith in their integrity to us.

I still hold a "MAJOR CARD" won from Mastros ,that slipped by all of you by say 5-6 times less then its value, I suppose I gained this item through their pure negligence.

Edited cause my paragraphs never line up with a darn

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Posted By: barrysloate

I awoke to find a serious discussion took place while I slept, so let me make a few pertinent comments. First, I saw my name in Jay Miller's post, and I would be happy to list the lots from my previous auction that I owned if anybody really cares to know. My position is I do purchase inventory throughout the year and need a venue to sell it. It would not make sense for me to put together a catalog auction and then send my pieces to someone else to sell. I know some feel there may be a conflict of interest, but I am happy to go into more detail if anyone requests.
To Doug Allen: I greatly respect your willingness to come on the board and answer all these questions in a forthright manner. I may disagree with you that ironing out a light crease is an acceptable practice, but it is really up to the grading service to detect that and make a judgment call, so let's say that is not a big issue.
But I do have a much greater concern, and there was one tiny phrase you used that opens a whole can of worms for me. You stated: "We service our customers...we maximize the grades." In theory, Mastro Auctions can not maximize any grades if the grading is being handled by an impartial third party. My question therefore, and it is an important one, is to what degree does Mastro Auctions pressure the grading services to reexamine a card when they are unhappy with the grade they receive? And to what level do the grading services capitulate since they are dealing with what is likely their number one client?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Doug,

Thank you once again for your direct answers.

I am interesyed in your response to Barry's question but also have one additional follow-up.

Rob said in his letter as you know that some of the most sophisticated work on cards has been executed by employees of auction houses that also deal in cards and you responded that the "only house that you know of that has employees that handle significant numbers of raw cards for grading is Mastro Auctions and I can tell you we don't do sophisticated work on cards".

Unless I am not reading this right, a senior ex-employee of Mastro is accusing your employees of doing sophisticated work on cards. Moreover, it is a senior guy who has huge respect in the hobby.

Thank you.

Jim

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Posted By: Doug Allen

Hey Barry....let me respond to your inquiry....Let me restate your comment/queston in its entirety

Barry wrote.....But I do have a much greater concern, and there was one tiny phrase you used that opens a whole can of worms for me. You stated: "We service our customers...we maximize the grades." In theory, Mastro Auctions can not maximize any grades if the grading is being handled by an impartial third party. My question therefore, and it is an important one, is to what degree does Mastro Auctions pressure the grading services to reexamine a card when they are unhappy with the grade they receive? And to what level do the grading services capitulate since they are dealing with what is likely their number one client?

We can maximize the grades when it is a third party.....now with these comments rememeber for our company vintage cards are anything before 1976 so a lot of this will relate to early Topps and Bowman cards....here are ways we maximize the cards:
#1 Selecting the right cards to grade. With 50s commons going through the roof as well as high grade Goudeys, etc. it is key you identifify the right cards to grade. Case in point we recently handled a guys 1957 topps set in ExMt condition. His expectation was $5 to $7k. Derek Identified a dozen high number commons that were blazers and got them graded. They all came back 9s with two coming back 10's. We broke them out of the set, replaced them for a couple hundred bucks. The set still went for $7k, the commons went for another $6k...you maximize the grades when you know what to grade.
#2 As indicated earlier we employ techniques that have been found to be acceptable by grading companies and the industry in general. Case in point we recently handled a collection of Goudeys where the collector had inadvertantly flipped a corner when he put his high grade hall of famer in a CardSaver....we layed down the corner and it was graded a NM-MT by employing techniques that are generally accepted in our industry and by the respected third party grading services.
#3 Relationships - it is true that we are very large clients for both PSA and SGC but rest assured they still independantly grade our cards and unless it is a big raw collection that they know is ours the graders don't even know who owns the cards. On the other hand our team includes very respected credible employees which makes them take note when we do want to argue a grade. Actually it goes both ways. Earlier I used an example of a major grading service slabbing a card in a NM-MY holder that had a pencil mark. That is a card we got graded for our customer. We pointed it out to the grading service and cracked the card out of a holder....we are not in the business to sell over graded cards. This also provides us crediblility when we argue for a cards they seem to have undergraded.

Let me emphatically state that we have no undue influence over the grading companies.

Now that I went through all of that....in direct answer to you questions. A very small percentage go through the review process. I would say if we get 100 cards back maybe 5% of them get reviewed....of these cards. Of these ultimately a small subsection get upgraded. I hope that answers your question.

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Posted By: Doug Allen

Jim,

Now let me handle your question....which is a sticky one.....

Jim said - Unless I am not reading this right, a senior ex-employee of Mastro is accusing your employees of doing sophisticated work on cards. Moreover, it is a senior guy who has huge respect in the hobby.

Response - Rob would have to answer that question. I was just stating the fact that if you go through all the major auction companies Mastro, Hunt, Lelands, Sothebys, Heritage, REA we are the only firm that employs a full time staff/team totally focused on cards. You guys know my team Derek Grady, Kevin Struss, Pete Calderon, Lee Iskowitz...there is no one behind a curtain!. These guys are honest guys with great reputations in the hobby.

Sorry but I am not going to put words in Rob's mouth and he has not come to me directly with these concerns. I believe I still have a good relationship with Rob and would expect he would call me directly to voice them.

All the best,
Doug

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Doug, I spend money on your auctions on a regular basis--in your world isn't that "something nice to say"? I've also got over 25K in bids in on your current auction -- let me know if you want me to withdraw them, I'd hate to make you sad. Also, I've never denigrated your auctions themselves, just your lame responses to questions as to why you raise prices the way you do (i.e. charging $75 for catalogues when certain auction houses eat these costs and certain ones do not) - you always claim that it is about the rising costs associated with putting out "a first class auction" but never acknowledge that yours is a business designed to make money, period, and that is a large contributor to your raising prices. Your responses are misdirection at best. Honesty is really the best policy here. Somehow I think that we as consumers would rather save the money associated with Mastro purchasing packing tape for boxes with the word "Mastro" all over it. But that's just me, of course.

While you're being so forthcoming, perhaps you can finally publicly explain the logic behind raising the BP after taking on consignments without disclosing this to consignors. I'm sure the reason can't be because you're trying to "run a first class auction." You'll agree, of course, that the consignors are the ones directly impacted by this raise in BP -- and Mastro is the direct recipient of their lost money. I'm sorry you think that my criticism on this subject is unwarranted. Alas, you might be the only one on this forum that thinks that way.

Next, how do you determine if a crease "impacts the integrity of the paper or card stock"? How can a crease NOT compromise the integrity of the paper? Let me guess: if the crease is on a card consigned to Mastro then it does NOT compromise the integrity of the paper? Is there a scale you use to determine how deep a crease has to go in order for paper to be compromised? Why not note on every card that you do some sort of restoration with? What can be the harm - other than to provide more information to bidders? What can possibly be the rationale to refuse to disclose this information other than the obvious one?

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Posted By: Jason L

What a wake up call to a hobbyist who hopes to someday start collecting more seriously...to me this says, "why bother?"
I know I am a relative newbie here and a far smaller fish in the pond, but I must say,

Doug, thank you very much for your honesty. But I am truly disappointed to hear about undisclosed altering/doctoring/changing-whatever you want to call it. The integrity of the hobby is not what I had hoped for. Turns out cards in good condition are not as scarce as I had thought...fact is that the population of high-end vintage material is actually increasing as new finds are brought into circulation and prettied up for sale!

Jim Crandell, thank you very much for starting this topic. Very useful, and with only those first couple of paragraphs at the top of this page, I think you added value to the hobby pursuit. Looks like you saved me a ton of cash over the next 30 years!

BarrySloate, I think it's honorable to disclose which items are yours in your auctions, but entirely unnecessary.

Overall, this is truly depressing to see...I wanted to believe this stuff was real...I guess there's always a guy behind a curtain, isn't there?

Perhaps the other auction houses could also find the balls to come out to disclose their thoughts on these topics as well so that we may all understand what we are really dealing with...

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone

Jason L

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Posted By: barrysloate

Doug- I entirely respect your answers to points #1 and #2, especially the way you handled the consignor's 1957 Topps set. I think you went above and beyond to get him more money and in an entirely ethical way. I still have a bit of discomfort with answer #3. If Mastro Auctions resubmits 5% of their material for review, which is a considerable amount since you deal in the millions of dollars, isn't it implied that you feel the grade is too low and deserves to get bumped up? I know that is why everyone resubmits cards, but if I do it I'm probably sending them a card or two, if I do it at all. The one thing I just refuse to believe, and sorry if I am cynical here, is that notion that if one of the top auction houses submits a massive number of cards to be graded, that the graders have no idea who submitted them. I know that is what they state as policy, but you would have to be working with blinders on (and don't wear blinders when grading cards) to not know you just got a submission from a major client. Just the sheer size and quality of a submission would be a tip-off. And Doug, don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with Mastro Auctions sending in the biggest and best group of cards, but if I were a grader I could distinguish between a major client and a lower level one in a minute. And this is not an accusation, just trying to state what appears to be obvious. My biggest concern is that grading may not be the objective process it is supposed to be, and if so then I have no faith in it whatsoever.

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Posted By: barrysloate

For Jason, Jay, and whomever else may care- in my November auction I owned outright lots #11,12,13,14,15,47,60, and 65, and owned a 50% share in lots 9 and 10. The balance of the auction was consigned to me.

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Posted By: Doug Allen

Jeff,

I didn't ask you to be nice. I asked you not to take pot shots. I don't believe it is productiveor necessary. Because of my job I am wearing a pretty big target. If the concensus here is they are fair game that is fine I will simply bow out as it is not a productive use of my time. Responding to legitimate questions is a productive use of my time.....

In response to your questions.....

#1 This wasn't a question but let me state the obvious - One objective I have is for my company to be profitable. It is not the number one goal but it definitely in the top 4 or 5. Sorry if I never mentioned that before.

#2 I offered to talk to any consignor that wanted to discuss the raise in the buyers premium. My cell phone was posted here. I took every call and responded to every inquiry....sorry to Jeff Prizner as he took a while to hook up with but I said early on for competitive reasons I don't want to discuss this on a public forum. Again for consignors who have questions the numnber is 630-336-6650.

#3 Cards are made of multiple layers of paper. If a surface wrinkle or crease goes through mutiple layers in my estimation it impacts the integrity of the paper and is better off left alone. Also I would argue that a crease that goes all the way through a card is absolutely detectable 100% of the time and if a grading company examines the cards properly, pressed out or not it will be detectable. On the other hand a surface wrinkle or crease that only goes through one layer of paper again in my opinion does not have the same effect. It is important to note that thin paper card stock cards like Cracker Jacks are exempt. They are one thin layer of paper and any wrinkle impact the integrity.

Hope this is responsive.

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Posted By: Joe D.

I would like to say that reading through this thread, I have gained respect for and have a higher regard for you and Mastro.

You are a gentleman.

Regards,
Joe

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Doug,

Once again thank you for your answers--I realize you do not have to respond in a public forum. I have been a collector for over 20 years and I don't consider the removal of creases "accepted practice". In fact I still have graded high value cards that I bought in auctions in the early 1990s that I submitted and they came back a psa 4 because they have a very slight creaese on the card. An example of this is 1948 Leaf Joe DiMaggio. Another one is 1938 Goudey JoeD.I truly believe these would be psa 8s without the creases. I know a couple of your guys pretty well--and now know where to go to turn these into 8s if I want to sell.

Jim

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Posted By: Jay

Barry--Thanks for the answer as to whether you own any of the cards in your auction. Would you be willing to disclose this information in your catalog on an ongoing basis.

Doug-Would Mastro be willing to disclose which material in its auctions is owned by the company or its employees?

How about the other major auctions. Lelands and some other auctions are Johnny on the spot to disclose on the board when their auctions are up and running or about to close. How about some answers to the questions raised by forum members.

BTW, let me echo what Joe D said. I have known Doug for several years and he is a class act all the way. Airing issues like this ultimately improves the hobby which benefits all participants.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jay- I have no problem disclosing this in future auction catalogs, but a question I throw out to the board is does anybody care? Would anyone place less of a bid on an item because I owned it vs. a consignor? I am curious how people feel, so I invite all to respond.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

When this came up in the memorabilia context it made sense that buyers would want to know if an authenticator owned an item he had authenticated -- there is at least a potential conflict of interest there. But I don't see what difference it makes whether an auction house employee or a consignor owns a card that has been authenticated by a third party.

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Posted By: Jay

Barry--Good question. Personally, it probably would not alter my bidding. I am more interested in how "house" lots are presented versus those of "outsiders".

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

Is an auction house owning a lot with their employees bidding on lots against people who they know bid on certain types of lots.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

It takes some guts to come on a board like this and answer these kinds of questions publicly. I imagine that if I was PR or legal counsel to Mastronet I'd under no circumstances have allowed my executive to respond to this string, so my kudos to Doug for doing so.

Substantively, however, I am not thrilled with the answers, especially re ironing out creases and flattening corners. My understanding is that those kinds of alterations made for purposes of enhancing the value of a sportscard must be disclosed when the card is offered for sale. I happen to agree that they should be accepted parts of card conservation; my opinion is not consistent with the state the law in California and certain other jurisdictions. So, my question to Doug, if he would be so kind as to respond to it, is how can Mastro operate nationally and offer cards for sale into California without complying with California disclosure laws pertaining to alterations of sports cards for sale?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Tom- that's a fair point but I think it boils down to how much you trust the auction house, period. If you have doubts about how an auction house conducts business, you should not bid at all. If you have faith in them, then chances are they will handle everything properly. I have to tell you that I am more concerned with how my consignor's lots do than my own. I can live with a slightly disappointing price on one of my own items; but I am ultraconcerned that my consignors are happy. If they aren't, then I'm headed for an early retirement, because they won't be back.

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Posted By: Joann

I agree with Jay M that these questions should be posed to all of the major and mid-major auction houses. When I first saw Jim's original questions, I thought about posting that the questions should be sent to the houses who can respond via email to Leon, who could then post responses. I'm kind of kicking myself for not suggesting that.

I think it would be great if these questions were sent to the other auction houses for response. We, as buyers, could get aa sense of where each house stands on these issues. It would also keep Mastro from having to bear the negative comments alone, and for only having been forthright in responding to questions. That seems a little unfair.

Unfortunately, now that this thread has expanded to its current scope, I'm not sure the other places would be as willing to answer honestly. They have the benefit of seeing the hobby response to certain answers and issues, and it's hard to imagine they would jump in at this point.

It would have been nice to somehow have everyone answer in their own way, without seeing other answers, and then post responses simultaneously. Shoot.

Joann

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Posted By: barrysloate

Joann- many of the auction houses simply do not like to participate on a public chatboard, and their lack of a response should in no way implicate them in anything (I know you weren't doing that). So even an open invitation may only receive a tepid response at best.

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Posted By: leon

I am no lawyer but what are legal definitions of "restoration, alteration, etc..."? My guess is no matter what answer you give it can be argued. What Doug has said might have been done to cards I don't consider alterations. Maybe "cleaning up" is the right term. What does California law say about cleaning a card up? Also, I want to thank Doug for coming on the board and answering tough questions. I do think you are correct Adam, in that this is a no win situation for him (Hi Doug). I got my butt handed to me when I came out and stated what was going on. I think sometimes it's not so good telling people what is going on....at least for personal welfare. I have about 42 different bids in the Mastro auction right now. A lot of them are on graded cards. I have absolutely no issue with what Doug has said they do to cards...but that's just me...and a lot of the other folks in the hobby...including most grading companies. Remmeber, if you can't tell something was done to a card it can't be taken off for by a grader. For the record heavy creases, I am told by a very good card doctor, can not be taken out with no traces left behind. It's the surface wrinkles that can be dealt with in a positive manner. And again for the record I have never tried to take any crease or wrinkle out of a card and never had anyone try to do it for me....I just don't have a huge issue with it, as stated before.....I also don't have an issue with doing anything Doug mentioned they might do....to me it's not altering the cards.....but again, that is my thinking and not some others...regards

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Posted By: Jeff

If someone at a major auction house "takes out" a surface wrinkle from a card, then sells it, what happens in a few months when that wrinkle comes back like a bad burrito? Can the buyer go back to the doctor for another botox injection?
My point is that a card doctor can treat a wrinkle, but he cannot call it a cure because it may not be permanent. And since a wrinkle can be the difference between a PSA 9 and a PSA 4, this is a huge deal.
Is there a doctor in this house who can explain how wrinkles are "taken out?" Are there collectors here who have seen their graded cards acquire wrinkles after purchase?

[Archive]

Posted By: Doug Allen

...I am at the office for a few hours today (promised my wife and kids I would not hang out here all day)...I will check in later tonight to respond to additional questions on this subject.

All the best,
Doug

[Archive]

Posted By: whitehse

As a long time collector on a extreme budget, the responses here have made me glad that I can only afford "collector grade" cards such as 5's 6's, 7's and ocassional 8's of post war cards. ( I admire pre war from afar as I dont know enough about them yet to take the plunge....thats why I am here!)

I admire the thoughts shared by Mastro but to be honest if I had the money to bid on these high end cards not only from Mastro but other companies I just dont think I would be doing so. I guess it comes down to personal choice but my feelings are if a card has had a even the slightest wrinkle removed from it that means that card has "issues". A card in a slab, to me, should be free from any issues that would invade the integrity of the card. Removing wax, to me is no issue because thats something on the surface of the card. A wrinke, no matter how insignificant is just that.a wrinkle! I guess I feel when I spend my hard earned money on a card that has met the industry standard of a grade of 8 it should have met that grade without any interferance from anyone trying to maximize the investment or return for their consigners.

I am but a very tiny minnow in a ocean of big fish here but as someone who has to consider his spending choices very wisely, these comments make me happy that I cant afford anything that will maximize profits and minimize (potentially) my return down the road.

Integrity in this industry is sadly something that is not always present. I am in no way pointing fingers at a specific company or individual just the industry in general. I just wish we hd more disclosure so buyers can make informed purchases and be certain that the cards we have bought have achieved their assigned grade without any help!!

Ok I am done......Move along....Nothing to see here!!

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Posted By: ScottIngold

"I know a couple of your guys pretty well--and now know where to go to turn these into 8s if I want to sell."

Boy... Don't tell me thats not what a bunch of guy's are thinking right now.

But somehow i believe this is pretty common knowlwdge in our inoccent community.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Jay, Joann, others:

My thought was to get Doug to respond to these questions and then go to others. Ultimately, my goal is to get dealers in the industry to agree to a "code of conduct" that they would either sign or not sign.
Those that would not sign it I would think would lose business--those that would sign it would be helped. Maybe this is not feasible but I would like it to include what is ok and not ok to do to cards and have dealers agree or not agree to adhere to these practices.

What do you think?

Jim