Stolen Collections

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Posted By: T206Collector

There is currently a thread about a stolen collection in or around the Chicago area. What is the status of the Houston theft? How about Ben Fisher's theft, some of which once turned up in Montreal? Any others?

Have we had any success in catching and prosecuting the evildoers? But more importantly, have any cards been returned to their rightful owners?

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Posted By: Ben

Thanks for the timely post, t206collector. About 6 months ago, I recovered 4 cards from my stolen collection after they showed up on ebay. Unfortunately, the detective I had investigate the case came up with no leads to the bulk of the collection - the four were purchased from someone at a flea market @ $50 apiece. So nearly all of it is still floating out there somewhere, unfortunately. It's a timely post because in a matter of days, I'll be taking off to work overseas for the year, and chances are I will not have an opportunity to keep an eye out for the cards like I have been doing for the past few years. So I hope nobody minds if I post some of the scans here along with a link to my old website at the bottom (which may crash if too many people try to load at once).

Here are some scans of the more distinguishable/valuable cards from what was stolen in february of 2005:



old website link (may crash) http://www.geocities.com/mc_big_ben/tobacco_cards

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Posted By: T206Collector

I really think there should be a permanent link with uploaded photographs and "last seen" with- and where-type information for everyone's stolen cards. It will keep the image of the stolen cards in collectors' minds and, eventually, they will turn up somewhere.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Wow Ben those are some beuties pretty devastating im sure, well ill have an eye out.. how long since they were taken?

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Posted By: Ben

The theft was in february of 2005, so approaching 2 years now since it happened. Here's a link to the original thread that was posted shortly after I discovered what happened:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1108939280/

I almost want to avoid bringing it up because it brings back some painful memories, but I figure it might help for a recovery if they do show up someday (a longshot, I know).

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Posted By: Rhys

I know this is a card forum and not autographs, but I will relate this story while we are on the subject just in case anyone comes across any of these.

A close friend of mine was selling autographs on consignment for the widow of a collector and had the entire box of about 5,000 3X5 cards stolen in NW Indiana/Chicoland area. They would be easy to spot as the man who aquired all of them in person was named Ken Reimann and he had most signatures personalized to him. Since Mike Gutierrez bought all of the signed baseballs, I bought everything else, and NO 3X5 cards were ever offered for sale, if ANY of these 3X5's start to pop up anywhere they are stolen property as well. There were 14 Vince Lombardi's, 10 Roger Maris', over 30 Mickey Mantle's etc etc. About $30,000-$50,000 worth on the open market.

I know some stuff was filed with the police and insurance companies but lock it away if possible in your memory, any 3x5 cards signed "To Ken Reimann" are stolen property and please send me an e mail if you find any.

Rhys Yeakley

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Was the flea market local to you, Ben?

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Posted By: anthony

i have a hypothetical question...lets say i bought one of the stolen cards at a card show (which i havent) and i tried to sell it on ebay or this board. then someone on this site brings it up that is was stolen before i bought it. i for one would want the card or cards to go back to the original owner but what about the cost that i put out to obtain it?

for a card thats maybe $100-$200 isnt that big of a deal for me for the owner to get it back but what if i paid a premium for a $2500+ card?

just asking because i dont follow the stolen card list nearly as close as some. but i am in the market for 3 expensive cards.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Anthony- you would have no legal right to sell a stolen card so you would have to refund the money to the buyer, take the card back, and then go after the person you got it from. Ultimately it would end up with the original owner. Nobody is allowed to profit from it. You would be out the difference no matter how much you paid for it.

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Posted By: anthony

barry, i was thinking that if i still had the card then someone brought it to my attention. you're saying that i just have to give it to the owner and eat the $ ?? there's got to be some law written somewhere that protects the buyer (lets say myself in this case) from just handing over a stolen card to someone because it was theirs at one time. wouldnt i have an argument that possession is 9/10th's of the law? was this original owner already paid by insurance? now he gets the insurance money and the card?? and i'm out $2500??

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Posted By: T206Collector

Think about it this way -- if the law was that you did not have to return stolen goods, then there would be a disincentive to make intelligent and informed purchases. If it were not a requirement that the subsequent innocent purchaser return the goods to the original, then you would never have a reason to ask for receipts and return policies -- but worse, the thief would be encouraged to sell the items, because he would have no requirement to make restitution to the subsequent innocent purchaser.

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Posted By: anthony

unfortunately you are right in that the law is more interested in deterring crime...seems a little unfair for the unsuspecting buyer, i just hope i never buy a stolen card or at least i never learn about it. you've heard the saying, "you'll have to pull it from my cold dead hand"? i would hope that wouldnt be my statement if i did buy one...i'm just glad i only have 3 cards left in my collection to obtain, i'll have to keep an eye out for that stolen card list...thanks for input

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Posted By: Rhys

The saying possession is 9/10 of the law is correct. When you possess something you are given the presumption of ownership and your claim of ownership is good against all claims except those that can prove superior ownership. In a case like Ben's, he has scans of the cards and reported the theft to authorities etc. If one of his cards pops up at a flea market and he is proven to have a superior claim of ownership, you will be politely shown that although 9/10 is great, it is better to be the 1/10 with proof that that the card was stolen.

The only way to protect yourself in this situation would be to follow the legal chain back to the guy you bought it from etc. In a perfect world it would all link back to teh criminal and everyone would get reimbursed. In the real world, you just get screwed.

Rhys

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Posted By: Martin Neal

I had the unfortunate experience of losing about 60 t206s to a thief. Luckily, for me, they tried to sell them at one of the local card stores. The owner knew I collected them and called me. Subsequently we set up a sting with the police and caught the guys.
It may be just in my locale, But it is my understanding that a fund has been set up to reimbuse anyone who has purchased stolen goods.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Anthony- I'm pretty certain that if you bought a stolen card you would lose all your money and have to return it to its rightful owner. You could go back to the person you bought it from and try to collect your purchase price, but that is the best you could do. You simply have no right of ownership of stolen material. This kind of stuff goes on all the time, trust me.

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Posted By: Bob

Ben- Is the D311 Smith one of the cards that is still floating around out there or did you get this one back? The reason I ask is that I am looking for this card so I check constantly on ebay and elsewhere and I might be able to run across it. I am assuming the guy is not stupid enough enough to sell it with the card still in the slab.
tbob

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Posted By: Ben

Bob- Yes, the D311 Smith is still out there, somewhere. I've recently updated the old website so that everything that remains there are stolen cards only. There were a few stragglers there that survived the theft, and I omitted them to avoid confusion. I'm glad I kept the website, as it will be a useful tool should any of the cards show up in the future. Thanks very much for keeping an eye out, Bob. I'll need the extra sets of eyes more than ever this year being overseas and not nearly as attentive to ebay and cards in general.

Gil- the flea market was in the Montreal area, closeby to where I used to live. I have since moved, so no, it is not local. I wish the detective had persued that venue, but I wasn't surprised that he didnt considering how the police department did next to nothing before I was in touch with him.

Thanks

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Posted By: Mark

In most (or at least many) U.S. states, an innocent purchaser can keep the card. In legal jargon, he's called a "bona fide purchaser for value without notice" and has superior ownership rights to those of the victim. The victim still has recourse against the thief.