Graded Card Moral and Ethical Issue

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Posted By: James Gallo

Ok so I want opinions on this from an moral and ethical side as well as what collectors and dealers think. Is there an expectation here.

Card A is sent to grading company A. They deem the card to be trimmed and it is returned uncased.

Card A is then sent to company B who grades and cases the card.

So in a sale format either on ebay or on BTS here are my questions...

Should the seller state that the card was refused by one company. Is this morally, ethically wrong and for the betterment of the hobby should it just be stated as it is above.

If the seller does not state that the card was refused by one company and the new buyer tries to cross it (assuming it doesn't cross the second time) should the seller accept the card back.

What are the opinions of this type of thing. I know I have crossed several cards and often the grades have dropped 1-2 levels at least.

Let's hear your thoughts.

James Gallo

Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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Posted By: Kenneth A. Cohen

Your hypothetical poses an interesting dilemma. After a great deal of reflection and thought, I can only come away with an even greater conviction that grading sucks.
Ken

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Posted By: jay behrens

While grading companies, especially PSA, slab trimmed cards from time to time, they also kick back cards that they think are trimmed, but are not. I have a card that was kicked back by PSA as trimmed even though I couldn't find any eveidence of it being trimmed and it measured full size. I submitted it to SGC and they graded it. To me, it's just more proof that PSA has no clue what they are doing and SGC is the only company that I would ever trust with a vintage card.

This is the card in question



Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: barrysloate

While the seller should state it, I think by doing so he would negate any chance of selling the card. Who would bid on it? Theoretically, company A could have been wrong in calling it trimmed, and company B could have seen correctly that it wasn't. It is an ethical dilemma, so I say follow your conscience.

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Posted By: T206Collector

There is no reason to list everyone's opinion on a card in a listing.

If the card is graded by one of the three companies, it is a liquid asset and can be traded without any further mention of grade or condition.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Grading companies screw the pooch all the time; we all know and laugh about their errors. The only question is whether you have facts in your possession that tell you the card was trimmed. Did you trim the card? Did you see it trimmed? Do you know it is trimmed? Do you think it is trimmed after examining it raw? If your answers are "no" I see no need to reveal that some twinkie junkie looking at his 1000th card of the day thought it was trimmed.

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Posted By: Cat

If company B is PRO, then you should state what company A declared.

If company B is PSA, SGC, BVG, or GAI, I would assume that company A was just being cautious and conservative.

I never ever ever see folks declare warnings for cards that they used to have in lesser grade holders. I have never seen this statement, or one like it, in any auction: "This GAI 4 used to be in a PSA 2 holder."



________________

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Posted By: Jason

The card is what it is encased in.
As everyone keeps repeating, "Buy the card, not the holder"
But of course, the opposite of that is just as simple: "sell the holder, not the card"
Right? Can I get an amen?

If you go too far down that path, then you are found trying to average the grades from the card's history of results..like "PSA says it's a 2, GIA says it's a 4, I think it's a 6, and PRO gave it a 12, so, I am asking for a price equivalent to a 7..." Huh?

In the end, you gotta sleep at night, so follow your gut.

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Posted By: leon

Now you can never say "never" concerning someone saying a card resided in a better holder....best regards

http://www.network54.com/Forum/376259/thread/1157915522/last-1157915522/D304+Young+SGC+AUT%2C+E97+proof+SGC10%2C+etc

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Posted By: Cat

Leon:

I learn or see something new every day on this board.

BTW, that sure is a nice card...AUT or otherwise.



________________

http://www.audiocomedy.net/soundboards/jacket.shtml

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Posted By: Joe D.

no ethical concern.

If SGC says the card is trimmed, and PSA says it is not and slabs it with a grade -
I see absolutely no problem with selling it with the PSA grade.

Remember, no matter who the grader is, it is just an opinion.
I think it is vital that more than one legit grader exists so that one man's (grading company's) opinion is not the end all be all. If you as a collector do not agree with a grade, it is important that you have options.

I know of some T206 cards that were taken out of 100 year old sealed cigarette box only to be deemed trimmed by SGC... which of course they were not!

So from the sellers perspective... if one graders opinion is better than anothers -- go with the better opinion and no worries.*
*my one exception is... if you yourself altered the card and know it to be screwy and try to pass it -- that is messed up!

From the buyers perspective... buy the card not the holder.



Edit to say: Rereading the thread... it seams T206 said it perfectly, and with brevity. Can't beat that.

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Posted By: Cobby33

No need to disclose. It has been properly graded. What may or may not have happened in the past is moot.
If a previous grading company said it was fake, perhaps a 3rd opinion would be needed, but, the scenario here, IMO, needs no disclosure.

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Posted By: James Gallo

A few additonal details.

I did not trim the card and do not believe it to be trimed. The grading companies are 2/3 of the big three.
Very interesting to see how things work out and I guess this was the type of answer I was looking for.

Gotta love this board...



James Gallo

Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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Posted By: bruce dorskind

Companies don't grade cards. People do. And different people have different
opinions, especially on matters as subjective as grading.

In the coin hobby, grading companies often run full page advertisements to
announce that they have hired "a top grader" from a competitor.

It is difficult to imagine, given the number of cards (not just pre WWII cards) graded,
that it is possible for any service to be 100% consistent in their grading standards.

Any card dealer who has worked in the numismatic profession is well
aware that "cracking the case" is a regular exercise for many collectors and dealers.
What is remarkable is that coins are often "cracked out of the holder."
and sent back to the same grading service. We have heard that as often
as 10% of the time, "cracked holders" receive a higher grade.

In fact, if the grading services did not regularly "raise the grade level," no one would
"crack the case," and the services would lose an important source of revenue.

We are not endorsing this process, simply making an observation.

The ethical issue raised by James Gallo, also requires that one address a second issue.

Suppose card A is graded a "7" by Service #1. The collector believes the card is
"a blazer" and decides to send said "7" to Service #2. Service # 2 grades the card
an "8." Does the collector or dealer have an obligation to share this information
with a potential buyer?

Clearly not....think about the concomitant implications of this course of action.

Remember, when one buys a graded collectible, one is buying an opinion. The question
then is how much faith should one have in the "opinion" of the people who are grading
one's cards?


Bruce

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

I agree: no disclosure.
There is nothing to "disclose".
We all know that grading companies will view things differently at different times.

So will we. I recently looked over a batch of cards which I graded months ago and thought to myself "Gil, you were feeling optimistically that day".

No big deal that my opinion varies, no big deal for others, either.

Sometimes it is easy to identify a trim job, sometimes it is not.

There are sellers who treat every "business" transaction as an opportunity to maximize profits. Similarly, there are sellers who view each business transaction as an opportunity to establish a relationship of mutual trust.

I remember Leon's B/S/T offering - and I felt a little Rizzutoish when the term "Holy Cow" entered my mind.

Sometimes it seems as if we are viewed by each other as non-adversarial. Or worse: colleagues. When we are lucky, we can become acquaintences (except for T206Collector).

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Posted By: jay behrens

Mr Grammar, you still have not explained why you improperly refer to yourself as "we" instead of "I". I would think that someone so hung up on everyone properly speaking the Queen's English that you of all people would know the difference between we and I.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

One should have no faith in the opinion of another. One should strive to employ a system which relys only upon measurement.

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Posted By: Richard

One could also argue that this proves SGC has no clue what they are doing and that PSA was the one who caught the trim job.


"While grading companies, especially PSA, slab trimmed cards from time to time, they also kick back cards that they think are trimmed, but are not. I have a card that was kicked back by PSA as trimmed even though I couldn't find any eveidence of it being trimmed and it measured full size. I submitted it to SGC and they graded it. To me, it's just more proof that PSA has no clue what they are doing and SGC is the only company that I would ever trust with a vintage card."

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Posted By: jay behrens

I trust my skills at detecting trimmed cards more than I trust PSAs. Nothing I saw on that card indicated that it was trimmed. Given the corner wear on that card, if was trimmed, it was trimmed decades ago.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I'm going to say the same thing I have been saying for a long time- nearly everyone on this (and many other) threads admits that it is up to each of us to make the final decision as to grade, eye appeal, etc. of a card. Why then is this hobby so beholden to the opinions of the grading services? Why can't the collectors take more of a role in determining what the proper grade of a card is?

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Posted By: leon

Please cut the crap with Bruce on the board. Enough is enough. It seems like everytime he says something you are at his throat...and then eventually he throws one back and we're off to the races again...I understand you want an answer. Here it is. Many companies say "we" to make it seem like a larger company. It's not the end of the world. I understand all that has been said and done, between ya'll, but please don't start anything else...and I will make sure he doesn't start it with you. If ya'll want to email sweet nothings to each other that's up to ya'll, but neither of you are going to make slight remarks or inuendo's (I used that word twice on the board today) to each other anymore on the board...or at least give it a break . Do me a favor and honor my request....thanks man....

edited to add Jay is still one of my fave board members...I just want a place anyone can post without fear of being attacked (as much as possible in "internetland"....) and thanks for taking it as a good sport....really didn't mean to be such a di** ....you're rubbin' off on me ....

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Posted By: quan

what's the measurement on the wagner? looking at it i don't think it's quite up to standard size for these cards. now the e92s/e101s/e102s are notorious for being poorly cut, most noticeably e101s imo as I see alot of them short like yours...but that card surely is not a regular cut.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Barry Sloate!
Please elaborate on this inquiry: "Why can't the collectors take more of a role in determining what the proper grade of a card is"?

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Posted By: jay behrens

Another board member has an e101 Wagner that is almost an identical twin to mine in cut and corner wear and his is also graded, but by PSA. Through the plastic appears to measure 2 5/8 x 1 1/2

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

If the card is not trimmed and you know it, you aren't required to disclose that
it was rejected. If you think the card is or might be trimmed, you should disclose.
In between is gray area-- though, for me, when in doubt, I would disclose.

The only real problem is if the card is trimmed. If you describe in auction an
untrimmed card as untrimmed, there's no issue.

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Posted By: Joann

I don't think you need to disclose anything - if the card is currently slabbed, it graded. Anything prior to that is just debatable opinion.

As to refunds if it doesn't grade elsewhere in a cross-over, no on that too. I think that anyone that cracks a card out of a slab does so at the risk the card may never see that grade again, for better or worse. That's on the person that cracks it out, not the person that sold it to him.

Joann

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Posted By: joe

Leon, I know you spanked jay, but he is funny sometimes.

Joe

Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: jay behrens

Hey, what do you mean some times? Don't make me make you my next target

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Cat

I agree with Barry that collectors should take more of a role in determining "grade." I like to add cards to my collection that look good. This card is a good example of a card that looks good to me but the technical grade is "2". But I care very little what the holder states.




PS. Could someone explain the difference between a "screamer" and a "BLAZER" so that I may apply the correct technical grade to my cards. Also, why is "BLAZER" seemingly always in caps. Is a "blazer" lower than a "BLAZER."



________________

http://www.audiocomedy.net/soundboards/jacket.shtml>

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Posted By: Cobby33

Jimmy is sweet on blazers.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Its just like wimmen, man. Go for whats up front 'cause it looks good, but ignore the back + other stuff - and what do you have for the long run?

The real stuff is more like Mike Wolf says: quality throughout, even if lesser, but even + throughout.

Lets talk real grading.

Where are you Barry?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Cat, that card is sweet; the upper left wrinkle obviously killed the grade. But what about the E95 Plank in the Goodwin auction with paper loss on the back that managed to get a 5 from GAI? How is that paper loss so much less significant than your wrinkle? As for a BLAZER, everyone knows that he is the cousin to the bump-up known as "++++++." Every BLAZER is also a numerical grade with the added 'plus' signs next to it. I've also noticed that certain sellers only have cards that can be described with "+++++++." How lucky are they to have only such cards in their collections?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Gilbert- I guess what I am really feeling is a level of frustration. I feel confident that I can grade a baseball card as well as any of the graders. I do think that they are much better than I am in detecting altered or trimmed cards. Yet if I give an opinion on a card that differs from what the slab says, I would lose that argument 100% of the time. The grade on the label is an opinion, but that opinion is given tremendous weight. As such, I've practically given up grading cards anymore. I send them in to be slabbed and sell them as per the label. I just can't fight it anymore.

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Posted By: Lyle

since I trusted and relied on it heavily during our recent transaction and I was not disappointed .

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Posted By: barrysloate

Thanks Lyle, and good point. That was ungraded and I had the opportunity to describe it without somebody else telling me what it was. Those days are few and far between.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Barry: the frustration would only exist if your grading differed from theirs, otherwise it would be a reinforcement of your opinion.

I therefore conclude that your grading criteria or method sometimes differs from theirs. In what respects is that?

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Posted By: David Vargha

Geez people, either get better at viewing scans or hold back on the "graders don't know what they're doing" stuff. Cat's card is rife with wrinkles in the lower half as well and has a spot of paper loss on the shoulder. That is a "2" every day of the year. It may present well, but it's a 2 and nothing more.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: barrysloate

Gilbert- I'm not sure exactly how my grading differs from the grading companies since each grading company in some ways differs from each other. But I will say that ten years ago when I put vintage cards up for sale I spent hours going over a collection before running an ad. I tried to be as accurate as I could. Now I just send them in and pretty much let the graders do the work. I am more on automatic pilot in that respect. Again, there are some very good things the grading companies do. I just think every collector should learn how to be a grader too. But it's really not necessary anymore.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

I agree that grading companies and their efforts are not operating to the detriment of our hobby. Actually, the opposite is the case. Recognizing the power which they wield in the eyes of most collectors, it is important that their criteria reflects the view of collectors.

Although the foregoing is true, any change from the methods or guidelines currently in effect, would impact the perceived validity of all previously graded cards. Therefore, the collector is virtually powerless to effect any change.

Therefore, all one could hope for would be an alternate authority who would implement their own criteria for assessing a card’s condition. That is, yet another grading authority, which would employ different standards to card evaluation. A “collectors take more of a role in determining what the proper grade of a card is"

This potential is not unprecedented in the collecting field. And the establishment of a collector grading philosophy applied to a portion of the coin collecting community has met with tremendous success.

However, it is unclear exactly what card collectors want that they do not already have. For example, several have voiced a preference to change nothing. Lipset has indicated a divergence in opinion related to virtual pristine Old Judges being substantially downgraded due to manufacturing characteristics. I feel that too much weight is placed on some evaluation parameters, while insufficient is placed on others. And I am sure Barry, and others could identify specifics; if there was a possibility that such an effort would go somewhere.

In the coin hobby, the collector grading is not a profit generating entity. There are no slabs. There are published criteria and methods and prices and rarities and populations by grade and specimen.

Does anyone want their cards graded differently?

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Posted By: warshawlaw

sell raw cards. If you elect to sell graded cards, you are selling a system of grading with them, whether you agree with its outcomes or not, and the customer is buying their opinion, not yours. I dislike GAI grading. I find them to be invariably overgraded. I do not accept their system. If I was to sell a GAI-graded card, however, I would sell it as such and not expect anyone interested in it to accept my opinion about it over theirs. If you choose to handle the holder, recognize that it comes with baggage.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Coins are the grandaddy hobby of grading. PSA and SGC's parent companies started as coin slabbing outfits. Nothing valuable in coins sells unless it is in one of their slabs.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Warshawlaw: you make it sound as if numismatics is controlled by the International Brotherhood of Slabbers Union.

I assure you that some of the hobby's most important coins exchange hands without the slabbers getting close to them. And coins of lesser significance do too.

For example, essentially all of the top pre-1800 cents have been photographed, cataloged, graded (by hobbiests), and are tracked. Their whereabouts are usually known, but not always. However, when they reappear, it is noted.

This is the functioning of the Condition Census - a tabulation and ordering of each of the best examples of each variety. There is no need to have your coin in the PSA registry. If your coin qualifies for the Condition Census, it is there whether you like that or not.

The best of the hobby's oldest coins are well documented, unslabbed and change hands that way.

Welcome to the reality.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

but the major grading services started on coins years before cards, have graded millions of coins, and have had a major impact on the coin collecting hobby.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

True. They came and helped save the collector much the same way that they did in the card hobby, but earlier.
And they still provide an important function.

Although you can not yet use Photoshop to produce a passable counterfeit coin, that does not mean that authentication is unnecessary. Similarly, since grading coins does not take tremendous experience (they are way more durable than cards), that also doesn't mean that assurances are unwarranted.

However, in the opinion of many, special considerations have to be brought into play when evaluating early American copper coins. These considerations are in part attributable to several factors:

- we could not yet manufacture sheet copper and had to purchase all of this stock from England. Variances in the composition of the copper (other metals alloyed) has impact on the functionality and deterioration of the resultant coin.
- we could not manufacture coins with much automation. I believe that the rolling of copper sheets were driven by a geared mechanism powered by horses walking around and attached to a huge wooden wheel located on the second floor of the Philadelphia Mint. Similarly, each die was hand tooled. So they were used well beyond the point at which they were already broken - both front and back.
- numerous other special considerations also apply.

Grading companies do not always welcome special cases which then require special expertise. The result was as our hobby may be now with the Old Judge cards, unable to accurately grade the items because hobby experts will not accept the slab grade.

This status resulted in the establishment of standards which for this issue, achieve more widespread acceptance than that available from commercial services.

Edited to add Joe G's speculation: "would it be accurate to say Old Judge cards are small pieces of imperial cabinets? Is it not true that due to the difficulty of developing these larger photos that it was typical to have varying quality? That is, some areas over or under developed while other areas of the photo would be crisp, near perfect? This could partially explain why it is a special treat to find a crisp and clear Old Judge (not to mention the issues from taking pictures of pictures, reusing same photos for years, and surviving the elements for ~120 years)".

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Posted By: barrysloate

Adam- if I sell raw cards I leave a ton of money on the table, and when people send me raw cards to sell for them they usually ask me to help get them graded. Can't fight the system anymore. Not saying it's a bad system, but a flawed one that just carries a bit too much weight.

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Posted By: Steve M.

ungraded T206's. Too much risk that they will be judged trimmed and not get a numerical grade. Seems to be a prevelant view on ebay judging from the low prices raw cards sell at.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Steve- that is where I think the grading services are most useful. If they can prevent the aggravation of your buying trimmed cards by culling them out and not slabbing them, they are doing their job. However, saying one card is VG and another VG-EX, and with some saying there's even a middle grade called VG+, that's just too subjective for me. Those grades can all be interchangeable depending on who is doing the grading, so it's hard for me to put a lot of weight on that part of the process.

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Posted By: MINE'S MINT

actually i disagree with barry on the point of..

"If they can prevent the aggravation of your buying trimmed cards by culling them out and not slabbing them, they are doing their job."..

this is not entirely true.. if they DID slab all submitted trimmed cards as being either trimmed or authentic.. (regardless of who the card is of, not just hofers).. it would help to ensure that the card you are buying is in the condition as marked.. granted this would not stop people from cracking cards to either resubmit or sell as raw untrimmed cards.. but at least it would help to maintain a sense of honesty in the hobby since almost no one will sell you their freshly rejected submission still in its high priced PSA issue "evid trim" top loader.. and as stated by steve the raw t206 market is indeed suffering because of doubts in regards to a cards integrity.. encapsulating all submissions even those that have been compromised and marking them as such is the way to go.. not to mention that by encapsulating a card you both help to ensure its saftey and keep the submitter happy.. i find that alot of collectors who dont care if thier card is trimmed just want it slabbed for thier collection.. because more often then not trimmed cards still have amazing eye appeal (most appearing near mint).. and seeing as both beauty and price are in the eye of the beholder in this hobby.. these authentic grade cards will basically determine their own value in the market.. id much rather buy a slabbed card marked as trimmed over a raw card that i suspect may be trimmed.. just my opinion..

psa/dna authenticated signature -> Richard M.

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Posted By: Cobby33

Agree with Mike on the point of slabbing trimmed cards and labeling them as "Aut." Grades don't matter too much to me (although when I was in school they did)...But it is worth the peace of mind to know that a card I have, trimmed or not, is at least not faked.

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Posted By: MINE'S MINT

actually my name isnt Mike.. its Richard.. im new to this board.. my log name is M-I-N-E'S MINT.. inside joke.. but either way its nice to see someone else who shares the same outlook on this issue as i do..

psa/dna authenticated signature -> Richard M.