Larry Frisch Grading

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Posted By: Mike Mattison

Has anyone bought from Larry Frisch. If so how do his grades translate into a SGC/PSA grade.

Thanks,

Mike

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Posted By: Lentel

I remember being disapointed with the grades he gave cards, but it has been 7 or 8 years since I bought anything from him. He doesnt have that much older stuff anymore

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Posted By: Paul

His grades don't match up with current grading standards, but his staff is very candid about it on the phone. Yesterday, I called and asked what I could expect of a card that is graded "about good." I was told that I should simply assume it would be as bad as I could imagine. Unfortunately, the people who answer the phone are not at the same location as the cards, so they can't pull the cards for you.

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Posted By: Stan

Clipped corner and pin holes is a 5 or 6 by their grading standards.

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Posted By: Peter Baldes

I've bought from them a few times. I usually purchase cards graded VG or higher. They seem to be more accurately graded. I once bought a card listed at GD/VG and it had a clipped corner and a small tear. PSA and SGC would give it a Fair rating tops. Usually Fritsch grades a step to a step and a half above what a grading service would give, but beware of "EX, with back damage".


--Peter

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Posted By: Darrell

caramel cards and they were below expectations -- I had them come back as SGC 10 and 20 -- both were listed at least a grade higher in the catalog ---- but service was good and price decent for what I bought - good luck - D

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Posted By: cmoking

based off of my experience only, I know subtract roughly 1.7 grades from his stated grade. This way I know more about what I'm getting. If their catalog says EX (which means PSA 5 to me), I cut it down to a PSA 3.2 ... maybe a SGC 40.

edited to add: the great thing about them is that they are willing to take returns and very quick about sending back refunds. When I returned some cards, my refund came back within a week of when I sent the cards back. I've returned 3 out of 13 cards I've ordered from them.

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Posted By: T206Collector

Do not affect their grading standards. Be very wary.

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Posted By: dstudeba

Neither do 1 inch tears in the card. I have fortunately been able to avoid him for the last 3 years.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

Colgan's from them. Some of them were very tough or tougher team versions that ONLY he has for sale. You have to temper that a little with the fact that as everyone's stated above they are typically 1-2 full grades worse than what's advertised. Paper pulls on the back of Colgans don't affect the grading too much either. If they have something you want, you may be forced to get it just because you may not see it for a long time from anyone else. I filled some much needed holes in my Colgan's collection. Overall, I was pretty disappointed but unfortunately, for now, forced to keep them if I wanted to plug the holes..........

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Posted By: Mark Turner

he stated it a ex/nm but when i got it there was writing on back that he did not state. i had it graded and came back psa 5 (mk). never bought from him again.

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Posted By: Mike Mattison

Thanks for the input. I was looking at a couple cards that he had listed as poor, Abt GD, and VG. So if I order them I should expect very poor, poor and poor, with the chance of missing parts, and the smell of laundry detergent.

Just how I like'm. When's the next beaters thread?

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

But I thought Mike might enjoy seeing this beauty, and imagining what he might be in for,


Fritsch graded this (and I quote) "VG w/piece of top border missing." But I kept it because the price wasn't out of line by current standards (as opposed to the grade). They are always good about accepting returns, and I do continue to buy from them occasionally.

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Posted By: Bob

The guys there are good to deal with over the phone but the caveat is that they do not have the cards in front of them so they can't answer questions. Their cards are graded old old school, i.e. writing on the back doesn't affect the condition of the card otherwise. If you stick with a minimum vgex or ex, you usually get nice cards, if you tell them you don't want a card if it has writing on the back they'll check that for you. Lower than vgex is a crap shoot. The guys there are very cordial and nice to deal with and they have a great return policy.
One more caveat, avoid the "About" grades, as in "Abt VG" or "Abt EX" this usually means the card looks Very Good or looks Excellent except for something noticeably wrong. Not always, but sometimes. I got an Abt EX card which I kept because the price was great and it was very scarce. The card was almost NRMT (otherwise) but had paper loss on the front.

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Posted By: Brian McQueen

I'll say a few nice things about Larry since many of the "points of concern" have already been covered off on.

His staff - Alan, Russ, etc...is very helpful and always willing to describe the card as best they can over the phone since they can't send scans. Their return policy is fair and quick as well. Plus, I like the convenience of using a credit card instead of having to mail a check.

As far as dealers go, their selection is really very good. Tougher issues like e103s and t216s are regularly found with them. And they have HORDES of cards from some issues. I've used many a card from Larry to fill a hole in a set. However, as many on this board will tell you, I'm not a very "condition-sensitive" individual. But normally his cards work out pretty well for me and I don't have to return too many.

He does tend to ignore the backs of the cards in grading however this actually works both ways and can play to your advantage. I've bought cards from them in the past that have shown up with tough overprints or interesting back stamps (ie..Toytown) that add value and uniqueness to the card. These are examples of things also not included in his descriptions or reflected in price. Yes, I'd say it's probably preferably that a dealer take the back of the card into account when grading, but I wanted to mention this since it's highly possible that you're pleasantly surprised by cards you receive from him as well.

Anyway...just a couple of positive points

-Brian

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Posted By: Brad Green

I don't know that I've bought anything from Larry Frisch, but he does have (or has had) some fairly hard-to-find cards. As far as his grading, the "Ex, with crease" grade always made me wonder.

Larry's opinion on graded cards is something that I remember. About 7 or 8 years ago, I remember reading an interview in the Sports Collectors Digest with Larry where he said that when he buys graded cards, the first thing he does is break them open. Then, a few years after that, SCD started grading cards. Who did they ask to be a spokesman for their new grading company? None other than Larry Frisch, who once said that he always broke graded cards out of their cases. Pictures of Larry and his son Jeff were always found in the Sports Collectors Digest saying how great SCD's grading was.

I know... People have the right to change their mind about things. But, I always thought it was a little ironic...

(Edited to add: I bought my first card from Larry Frisch today. That's ironic!)

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Posted By: John S

I purchased my first T206 from Larry 20 or so years ago. Since then I have had a around a dozen transactions and have learned to downgrade items and then determine if I would be willing to pay the price. This Phillippe E254 was described as VG+ which I interpreted as creasing. It probably should been noted that the card had a rusty paper clip mark acroos Deacon's face. I kept it because the price wasn't too bad. Larry has no pressure to change his style because he continues to provide material (that I assume was accumulated years ago) that most other dealers cannot match.

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Posted By: TONY

I recently bought a small group of cards from the 40's.. most were graded fairly.....I returned 3 out of 13 cards due to horrendous registration problems......got a prompt refund...
Larry still uses 1960's grading standards best i can tell.....but beware of cards with problems, many cards graded like ex with pinhole, tiny piece missing otherwise vg-ex......cards like this are probably 3-4 points overgraded....if your sending these type of cards to PSA etc your in for a shock when you get the cards back....Larry doesn't embrace grading, no wonder, check for ultra high grade cards, not many to be found....also prices on some not tuff to find issues are multiples of current market values...he obviously sells to people who never heard of ebay.....also has anyone every sold him a card?......I have asked around & have never found 1 dealer who sold him a card...just curious how strong of a buyer he is.....since he has so much inventory he paid a 1¢ each for.....it must have to kill him to pay 50% or more to buy a card for resale

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Tonygalo,

You wouldn't be Tony Galovich would you?

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Posted By: JimB

And people wonder why 3rd party grading caught on????
JimB

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Posted By: David

I don't know about Larry Frisch's grading, but I always get a chuckle when I look at their complete 80's and 90's Topps set prices in their SCD ad. You can't give those things away nowadays. I can't help wondering if they actually sell any of those sets.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I had a very bad experience with Larry at the first show I ever attended. He was very rude and had not time patience to tlak to a kid (17 years old at the time) about cards or haggle on price. I have nevr bought a card from him since and he's never had a card that I had to have, so I basically avoid him at all costs.

Sadly, that first show, I met a number of great dealers and collectors, Mansco Perry being the only one I remember, yet I remember the biggest jerk I met at the show better than anyone else.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Brian Campf

Larry Fritsch is a great guy. He's a real gentleman and is as nice as they come. He also enjoys talking with collectors. Larry always has terrific material. As for grading, we all know that it is completely subjective. If a card isn't what you expect, Larry has a very fair return policy. His staff are always courteous. He's been a leader in the hobby for years. I'd buy from him any day of the week.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

That Larry Fritsch's grading criteria differs from that of PSA, does not necessarilly make PSA wrong.

Who was here first?
Who has handled more cards?
Who is most consistent?
Whose guarantee is best?
Etc.

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Posted By: Ricky Y

I've only purchased Topps cards from him as I was working on baseball sets back as a teen. I used to order them by series back in the 70's. I think he just broke open his cases of vendor boxes to sell them. I recall them being advertised as EX-MT which covers a wide range of condition. I got my share of OC cards but that never bothered me and still don't....ecxcept for those diamond cuts..I hate those that tilt!

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Posted By: Sean

I have purchased a few cards from him; I have to admit his over grades all cards in his catalogs by today’s slabbing standards. The higher grade cards usually are closer to the grade he lists but anything "ABOUT VG" can get a poor grade from SGC or PSA.
The return policy is great and they do have some very nice guys who work there, but get rid of the Larry Jr. Bill coupon...

Sean BH

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Posted By: quan

super inventory, super nice. he gets those tough cards that you won't find elsewhere. only fault is the overgrading. if you buy an EX card, expect a VG grade, but usually the pricing is on par with the VG grade. If you don't like 'em, return them and expect a check within a couple weeks...maybe even with a hand-written note apologizing and saying on your next purchase he'd knock 10% catalog price.

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Posted By: jay wolt

"Larry doesn't embrace grading, no wonder"

Larry & Jeff sure embraced SCD Authentic grading when they
first came out. They were the poster boys for that company.
In evry issue of SCD & Tuff Stuff there were full page ads
showing Larry or Jeff holding a '33 Lajoie, a '52 Mantle
and so on stating that their grader of choice was SCD...jay

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Posted By: MikeU

More accurately, SCD singled out Larry to become a submiter to validate their operation. All the marketing and backing of grading by Larry, was simply marketing by SCD of their most visible and important client. I think the concept was a great idea for SCD. It also made sense for Larry to have an open mind and try grading. Unfortunately, there was simply too much industry interia with the other grading companies for a single visable client of SCD's to really make a difference.

Larry has been around longer than anyone, as far as a large retailer is concered. He has never had any controversy surrounding him that I am aware. That is some significant longevity and trust, that simply can not be ignored. Some lenient raw grading and high prices should never overide the positives he has contributed. If he was not so open on his return policy, I think that people could have a legitimate beef regarding his grading. Otherwise, have some respect for a legend, even though he does not grade paperloss and writing the same way as the grading companies.

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Posted By: Jay

I have purchased cards from Larry over the years and for the most part have been very happy with what I got. Obviously, others have been too. The last few times I called in to order cards from his catalog, on the day I received the catalog, they were already sold. Larry is a hobby HOFer if there ever was one.

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Posted By: Boccabella

I've been to their office which is basically in a wooded area of Wisconsin, outside of Stevens Point.

I don't believe Larry is that actively involved anymore..at least not with the day-to-day stuff. I could be wrong, but I think he probably deals with the big time collectors & major transactions they're involved with and the rest of the staff handles the catalog orders, etc.

They've very slow when you submit an order in their want list service and the catalog doesn't seem to be updated like it should be. I got frustrated when I'd order things and they didn't have them even though the catalog had just come in the mail. The whole operation is rather old-fashioned but the method has worked for them for about 3 decades so who are we to argue? I think Larry is a collector at heart and really prefers to do business that way. And as has been pointed out, they are pretty prompt with refunds.

I was hoping to somehow get a peek at what they had in storage (unopened) when I was there but they told me most of their stuff was at "another location".

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

you buy his holder and not the card. How many rare cards
could he have in stock left to sell is the main hope that
we should focus on. He isnt the only one that needs an
ultrasound to see a crease !

Be glad there are cards to offer us, somebody has to deal
with us all. Wish he would let his real prime time schtuff
go, haa?

One of you single guys should see if he has a daughter left...
cause with all the millions they just made in mastros last 2
auctions.....my guess is that Larry and Jeff are going to
"BLOW-UP" from eating too much and shumbudy could get that
COLLECTION !!!!

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Posted By: Bob

About 20 years ago one of my partners in the Southern Find (so-called by Mastro) of T213 Coupon cards, sold his entire personal collection to Larry. His name is John England and he used to own a card shop in Fort Smith, Arkansas over Vivian's Book Store on Greenwood (now both long gone alas). John kept his store inventory, although he eventually sold it also and quit to collect jazz records, but the great personal collection went to Larry for major bucks (at that time). At one time John had one of the most, if not the most extensive Zeenut collection ever compiled. I am assuming that that may have been where all Larry's Zeenuts came from although they are mostly gone now. John also had complete runs of almost all major tobacco and caramel card sets. He began vigorously collecting back when almost no one else was.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Sounds like he sold at a good time. Twenty years ago the first sustained wave of appreciation was winding down. I wonder how jazz records have done in the past 20 yrs. It maybe time to switch back.