Another Joe Jackson T5 cabinet question

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Posted By: David Smith

In the other thread about the T5 Joe Jackson cabinet, someone posted pictures of the Mile High card and the Mastro card. They also posted several other T5's for comparison. I have never physically handled a T5 cabinet or a T5 postcard, either, so I do not know what they feel like, if there is a difference. So, could someone have taken a T5 postcard of Jackson and glued it onto a mount and created a T5 cabinet of Jackson??

I wonder because a postcard might not have the white around the photo area that the T5 cabinet card photos have. This might explain the difference in appearance between the two T5 Jackson cabinets and why one might be totally glued to the backing.

Just wondering.

David

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Posted By: Millerhouse

David,

The "postcard" versions of the T5 photos were published sometime later than the Pinkertons (some team names, for example, are changed to reflect Federal League teams), are on a stock that is even thicker than most postcards and tend to have a grainier appearance than the original photos. By contrast, the original T5 photos are on fairly classic photo stock paper, much thinner and generally portray a sharper image. To me, it would seem impossible to mistake the two.

Obviously, one could try to glue one of the reprints onto a T5 mount, but the result would look rather silly. (Without pulling out one of my "postcard" versions for comparison, I'm not even certain that the sizes would match up well.)

There seems little doubt that the expensive T5 of Jackson has an original T5 photo on it. However, if it is totally glued down, as I suspect it is, it has been doctored, which makes me suspect, even more, that there is a problem with the border also. If I were an unsuspecting purchaser, I'd be more angry about this than about the appearance of another T5 shortly after the auction. No matter how unique you might think something is in the pre-World War I card business, you never know when someone is going to find a cache of them undiscovered for years in someone's attic.

Dan

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Posted By: davidcycleback

The postcards and cabinets are both period. The cabinet cards use real photos that have no dot pattern in the image. The postcards are ink and printing press press prints and have a dot pattern in the images. So one could identify a postcard pasted to a mount.

The T5s were made in a variety of ways, including use mounts of different color and thickness. So variations are to be expected.

I too found it interesting that some cabinets have photos with white borders and some do not, and was struck that the Jackson came in both variations.

It used to be that the postcards were inexpensive, but these days the Cobbs and Mattys are getting pricey so there's no pressing need to try and enhance their value.

In case someone wonders how we know the postcards are period, some were used as postcards and have postmarks from the time. I remember a collector came to me with two blank backed postcards. He wasn't sure if the blank backs were genuine, and mentioned the back of one had a handwritten letter, address and 1910s postmark. This was the first I had ever heard of any of a specific postcard being mailed. The postmark not only showed that his was vintage but that the postcards in general were from the 1910s.

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I guess the only question now is if the guy who spent $180,000 on the T5 Jackson will be taking out his magnifying glass to double check that it isn't a postcard.

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It should be noted that there have been sold some original unmounted T5 photographic prints. I don't know if they were unused or what's the story with those. I supposed there's always the chance for shenanigans with those. Though amongst the unmounted photots I've seen, I've never seen a big star player, much less a Joe Jackson or Ty Cobb. If your T5 Cobb has known to have been around for a number of years, ala sold in a 1999 Lipset auction, you can probably assume there's no issue ... And I know that at least one of the Jacksons was sold in public auction a good number of years ago ... For many years, the T5s were often ignored, somewhat obscure, even amongst vintage collectors. It is only just recently that they've zoomed to the stratosphere in price.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

I believe if you look at all of the T5's pictured here or elsewhere you will find that they all have a small 1/8" (approx.) border. Only the Copeland Jackson(as it has now been traced back) exhibits the "cut to the photo" look. the piece was obviously cut down years ago and found it's way into that collection and now another.

Scott

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Posted By: Zach Rice

I've seen at least a handful of T5s without the white border that were at least thought to be original. One was a Walsh in a Mastro auction not too long ago. There was also the lot of 10+ players all of whom were members of the As. All of which were very beat up and it was apparent they all came from the same place. Two of these did not have white borders surrounding the photo.

Of the two Barry's i've seen, both of them lacked the white border around the photograph.

Here is the Walsh:

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Posted By: scott brockelman

All of the original ones I have seen have the white borders, are cut cleanly AND the photo takes up the entire area inside the frame line. The Waddell is a "Mini". Probably a sign of whittling.

Scott

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Posted By: fkw

Im not sure exactly when the T5s were issued, the SCD says 1911. The so called "postcards" are actually not a true postcard as there is no "Postcard" ID or stampbox, they are found with a blank back (sometimes used like a postcard), or a scorecard back. These Pinkerton "postcards" are from as early as June of 1912. I have seen or owned 4 that were used as postcards and have the postal cancellation marks to prove the age (1912-1913).

Like others have said, the postcards are low quality printed photos with a redish-brownish tint. The T5's are real photographs.

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Posted By: Millerhouse

The comments above about the presence or absence of borders on T5s led me to pull out my 19 T5s and make what I think is a very interesting discovery. Six of my 19 T5s are mounted on the less desirable, thin, construction paper-type mounting, while 13 are mounted on the more commonly seen and more desirable molded cardboard mounts. Fascinatingly enough, the six photos on the construction paper mounts have quite uniformly sized white borders: 3/16 of an inch wide. Five of the six photos are 4 inches wide, including the borders, while the sixth, a minor leaguer (Lefty George) is only 3 and 5/16 inches wide (though with identically sized 3/16 of an inch wide white borders).

Comparing these to the T5s on the more common molded cardboard mounts (like those of the Jacksons at issue), none of the photos is 4 inches wide, and, indeed, could not possibly be 4 inches wide without overrunning the fancy borders molded into the mounts. Some of my thirteen on the fancy mounts have no borders and some have a little bit of border, but none has a border 3/16 of an inch wide. This suggests fairly clearly that there was some variation in the size of the T5 photos and, more to the point, that Pinkerton had to cut some of the photos down in size to allow them to fit with the fancy borders cut into the heavy molded cardboard backings.

So, on the heavy carboard mounts, to the extent that white borders eixst at all, they are generally quite small. By contrast, it appears as though the original photos, with borders uniformly 3/16 of an inch had to be cut down to fit into the borders molded into the heavy cardboard mounts.

Dan

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Posted By: Glyn Parson

"There was also the lot of 10+ players all of whom were members of the As. All of which were very beat up and it was apparent they all came from the same place. Two of these did not have white borders surrounding the photo."

It was 14 of them (a few 19th century auctions ago) they were mine. none of them had a white border all had the brown border. they were hung in a very old tavern in the philly/reading PA area and were very very beat. As stated earlier all were only glued on one strip of the photo.

PS: I find the dark mounts to be much more attractive then the light mounts even on beaters.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

For cabinet cards in general, not just the T5s or baseball, it was not rare for the photo studio to cut the photographic print to fit into the embossed shape. If you look at a 1900s cabinet with an oval photographic print, you can often see that it was carefully handcut.

What I find funny about the T5s is when the photographic prints are pasted on crooked.