No Returns on Graded Cards

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

This policy is becoming more commonplace among eBay sellers. And to me it infers that a graded card is a commodity, which it is not. The following reasons are some which I choose to cite in support of the fact that all graded cards are not equivalent:

Because they are not.

Any observations or comments?

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Posted By: Gary Nuchereno

In the "old days" there were always guys who would buy a card and then whine and complain that it was not in as nice as condition as you thought it was. They would try to get a partial refund because of condition. One of the selling aspects of getting a card graded would be to eliminate that.
When you see that PSA 4 Lajoie, I think it is dis-honest to
sell that card as it is. I would be p***** if I got that card
and couldn't return.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

If the seller posts a good scan of the front and the back of a slabbed card, what more do you need to make an informed decision? As Gary accurately points out, there are people who will bitch about a graded card's grade and try to get a discount. My policy is no returns on graded cards for that reason. The grading doesn't eliminate subjectivity completely (the grader has some too) but if you trust the grader and see the scans you can buy with considerable comfort. I think it is a fair trade-off. That's why I am no longer buying GAI-graded cards except at a considerable discount to the price the same card would fetch in an SGC holder. I think GAi overgrades by at least 1 grade. I have never had a GAI-graded card that crossed to SGC at the same level after I've cracked it out and submitted it. SGC, on the other hand, I trust, so I am comfortable offering on their cards with a no returns rule. Others trust PSA or GAI; that's their choice.

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Posted By: Joe D.

If a scan is shown, and it is graded... why return other than buyer's remorse?

Asking for a return on a graded card is quite unfair by the buyer.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Graded or Raw.....it's an old game played by many dealers out there that think they
have a card already sold to a customer for a profit; and, they aggressively bid on it
on Ebay (and usually win it).

Then, for whatever reason, their customer declines the card, the dealer then decides
he doesn't want to be "stuck" with it, so he comes up with some "weasel wording" to
return it. This happens too often......but, the bright side to this "cycle" is......if the
original seller takes it back and re-submits this card on Ebay, then the real collectors
who were previously bidding on it have a 2nd chance at it.

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Posted By: David Vargha

Adam is correct. If the seller posts clear front and back scans and if he discloses any hidden flaws not detectable by the scans, then it is a very reasonable policy. But if the policy is in effect with anything less than full disclosure as stated, then it is only in place to take advantage of an unsuspecting buyer. Now at a card show, the policy is clearly fair because the buyer has ample opportunity to assess the card. Of course, material mistakes such as incorrect information on the flip would make the policy invalid.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: TONY

I sell a few cards on ebay graded & raw & offer a no questions asked money back guarantee & have yet to get anything returned....
Sorry to disagree to but I expect to be able to return a card if I'm not happy with it
I recently bought a card from a seller here & returned it....I think it's only the 2nd graded card I've returned ever.....
I use the privilege,,,,but don't abuse it..
NO returns on graded cards raises a flag for me to beware...
If u sell great cards or describe a item totally & properly your returns will be nil.....

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Posted By: Scot Reader

I think it is perfectly fine for ebay sellers to list goods with fuzzy scans, limited disclosure and "no return" policies. In such circumstances, a prospective buyer can simply email the seller questions and if the seller answers them can get an information advantage over other prospective buyers. The prospective buyer can then put in a low ball bid and sometimes win the item at a substantial discount. Where there are red flags there is also considerable opportunity.

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Posted By: steve f

Likely a sellers scare tactic to discourage the Ol' Switcheroo that can occur on SleezeBay. If pressed I'd bet the seller would likely give a refund to any credible buyer, I would. Of the hundred or so graded cards Ive sold, only one was returned by a buyer with a good rep(albeit minus shipping chg).

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

The people buying graded cards are paying for the service of the graders also and they put a trust in the graders. That is part of the reason we all send cards in for grading. If you personally do not like the grade applied, why is the problem of the seller?
I also agree that you need a good scan but as far as describing the card, if I wanted to go thru all that I would just sell it raw. The buyer should know the parameter of the graders grades.

Lee

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I don't sell graded cards, but I always assumed this policy was in place because, if the buyer has a problem with the grading, his problem is with the grading company not the seller. This is assuming the seller correctly identifies the card and any major unseen problems that are known to exist. If the card is a fake, the seller would have to accept a return even if it is graded.

Many collectors use grading companies as the arbitors of card grade, often sending in cards to a grader in order to check the grading accuracy of a seller and even of himself. So many sellers and buyers will consider the graded cards all ready pre-arbitrated. This doesn't mean that the graders are perfect, but that problems with the arbitration should be taken up with the arbitrator. Unless the buyer has the seller remove the card from the holder and make personal inspection, the seller isn't in a position to grade the card. I assume most eBay buyers would prefer the card stay in the holder even if it means there isn't a second grading opinion or better scan. And by preferring the card stay in the holder, in other words buying graded cards, the buyer is accepting that the grading is taken out of the hands of the seller. In fact, most collectors chose graded cards specificly in order to take the grading out of the seller's hands. By chosing to shift the physical grading away from the seller to graders, the collectors are chosing to shift the responibility for grading accuracy away from the seller to the graders.

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Posted By: Eric

I think there should be returns on graded cards. I also think people put too much faith that the grader has accurately assessed the condition of the card. Below is a link to a boxing card that I purchased on ebay and subsequently returned. It has been relisted by the seller. There is a noticeable surface crease on the front of the card that does not show up in the scan and, therefore, was not in EX condition (PSA 5)....at least not in my opnion. This crease was not mentioned in the original description of the item but is mentioned now. The seller agreed to refund me my money. How big of a scan do you need to see all of the defects in the card? and should I assume that cards graded PSA 5 have no creases or surface wrinkles when I'm bidding on them? I also notice that the seller now has a "no refund" disclaimer - that was not there in the original auction.

http://cgi.ebay.com/MECCA-T220-J-MACE-T-KING-PSA-EX5_W0QQitemZ320004225329QQihZ011QQcategoryZ55985Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

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Posted By: edacra

I can understand selling a graded card "as is", if only for the fact that a third party has taken a look at the card and given some verifying opinion. There's less guess work, and less potential that the description and photos don't always match. On the flipside, why not take the return? If they're not happy, you're assured to at least get the same card back, in the same condition. It just removes a lot of the usual problems with private mail order dealings.

Istil don't trust any of the grading companies though. Best to still use your eye. There's a certain bit of "as is" on a slabbed card anyway, since you can't smell, or touch the cardboard...and the plastic gets in the way.

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Posted By: Joann

It seems to me that grading companies include the ability to buy with confidence among their selling points. The whole point of the process is to remove subjective differences in opinion between buyer and seller. If you don't have that one simple thing, then pretty much all the grading process contributes is protection for cards and a competitive basis for registry participants.

Buyers buy graded cards and pay more for them precisely because the subjective opinion of the seller is removed from the transaction. So now the seller should also be responsible if the buyer also has a subjective difference of opinion with the grader?

I agree with points above that sellers do need to disclose substantial mistakes by the graders that would defeat the purpose of grading, and that it may be good business sense to accept a return anyway.

But I can certainly see why a seller won't take back a card as an obligation just because the buyer wants to claim disagreement with the grader. If the buyer gets to receive a card, decide whether the card's condition is worth what he paid, and return the card if he feels he paid too much ... then what do we need grading companies for? Isn't this the exact situation that gave rise to the industry in the first place? Can't have it both ways.

Joann

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Joann: As you point out "Buyers buy graded cards and pay more for them precisely because the subjective opinion of the seller is removed from the transaction". However, the seller's opinion is replaced with a subjective opinion of an independent party. Which is also good, if their evaluation criteria approximate mine.

But they do not. From my perspective, this assessment difference results in graded cards often presenting a bargain in incidences when the grading company's evaluation is more stringent than mine. And the opposite is also true.

Telling me "it is a 4" and presenting a scan which does not provide adequate detail, and a no return possibility policy, will result in no bid from me.

I simply want to buy what I like. I crack them all out anyway.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

If I like a card up for auction, graded or not, scans or not, I ask these simple questions:
Any creases, any wrinkles, any paper loss, any other surface or paper issues, and does it measure correctly for the issue? Ok, with graded I tend not to ask the last one.
If there are no scans available (or if they are just not good enough scans to satisfy my eye), on the auction site or from the buyer, I just won't buy the card - unless the card is so insanely scarce that condition doesn't matter and ownership only is my priority.
If he/she is unable to supply answers to my questions, I just won't buy the card.

After any and all of those issues are resolved, if the card is graded and I don't like it for whatever reason when it arrives, well, thats on me.
Because how ridiculous is it, with everyone's subjective preferences aesthetically for a card, that the seller is somehow beholden to supply YOU a card which meets exactly what you're after! It's not his responsiblility, it's yours to fulfill your madnesses and eccentricities.
Others may find the exact same card in the same holder to be exactly what they enjoy. Sellers are not there to cater to everyone's whims and tastes, they supply a product and you are capable of making your own decisions on what you need from a card.
Just imagine, I sell gil the card, no, he doesn't like it as a 4.....I sell leon the card, no, he doesn't like it as a 4......I sell Joann the card, no she doesn't like it either as a 4........3 months later and 6 potential buyers, untold miles in the unsafe hands of postal/delivery workers - UGH!!!
How long is a Seller supposed to peddle the card to every dificult so and so collector (obviously NOT a reference to our beloved leader and Net54 cohorts!) until one is magnanamous enough to accept it?

Of course, everything above holds strictly to graded cards.


Daniel

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Well Daniel, I would think the buyer's responsibility is to acquaint the seller with the existence of those preferences, so that the seller can choose whether the accomodation of these preferences is worth the effort to provide a description of the card's inadequacies, or a clear scan.

Maybe I am wrong in my assessment. It could be that almost everyone thinks that the criteria of the grading companies and their application, is just fine.

But gee, some think that holes, stains, centering, paper loss, creases, etc. are different, and some are more distasteful than others. Telling me "it is a 4" and presenting a scan which does not provide adequate detail, and a no return possibility policy, will result in no bid from me.

I simply want to buy what I like. I crack them all out anyway.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Gil,

I think you actually just re-stated my post.........

This is what I said:

"I ask these simple questions:
Any creases, any wrinkles, any paper loss, any other surface or paper issues, and does it measure correctly for the issue? Ok, with graded I tend not to ask the last one.
If there are no scans available (or if they are just not good enough scans to satisfy my eye), on the auction site or from the buyer, I just won't buy the card - unless the card is so insanely scarce that condition doesn't matter and ownership only is my priority.
If he/she is unable to supply answers to my questions, I just won't buy the card.


This is what you said:

"Well Daniel, I would think the buyer's responsibility is to acquaint the seller with the existence of those preferences, so that the seller can choose whether the accomodation of these preferences is worth the effort to provide a description of the card's inadequacies, or a clear scan.

Telling me "it is a 4" and presenting a scan which does not provide adequate detail, and a no return possibility policy, will result in no bid from me"

..............?

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

I apologize, E, Daniel. You see, I did not understand that it is required that I disagree with you, when I post.

I will endeavor to be more argumentative next time. Maybe a little confrontational, arrogant, self-centered, and perhaps throw in just a little extra obnoxiousness, just to round it off.