Thought I'd share an interesting blank-backed 1909 Obak.....

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Posted By: Brian McQueen

Thought I'd get some other opinions on one of my 1909 Obaks. The Jansing, a blank backed card, is pictured below and shown alongside couple other Obaks I have. The Lewis has a framed back, the Smith is "frameless" on the back.

I'm thinking the Jansing is printer's scrap although I am not positive. If you look close, you'll notice that the colors on the front are dull and the black border around the card is thicker than the border on the other two. Notice in particular that Jansing's skin color (face, left hand, etc..) is a greyish color whereas normal Obaks have some color to the face such as the Lewis and Smith cards in the scan. I'm pretty sure these are the typical characteristics of "printer's scraps" but am curious to hear what others might think.

I have a couple observations about the framed vs. nonframed backs as well. I've heard that cards with frameless backs are handcut correct? Any ideas what these might have come off of? I used to think that frameless backs were relatively tough however I took a tally in my own collection and it turns out I have 30 framed backs and 27 of the "frameless" variety. This ratio turned out to be much closer to 50/50 than I thought. Anyone else notice this trend?

Even funnier is that the LA players I have (nine) are all frameless and the Oakland players I have (eight) all have the frames. Anyone else have any peculiar observations with regards to these cards? All opinions are welcome. Thanks in advance,

Brian
redmaccie@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Brian

Brian,

I am not sure why this post didn't get some responses. Yours does look like a printer scrap. I have a blank backed Zieder 1909 that looks like a normal card, just blank backed. I will get a scan posted soon.

I have only handled about 200 1909s, and have seen a roughly 50/50 split between framed and frameless. I am sure Leon, Scott B, T Bob and others have more experience than this.

I have not noticed a connection between teams and back type -- that's an interesting finding.

Maybe Mark M. is reading and can offer his perspective...

Brian

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Posted By: leon

Scott B., Tbob, and Mark M, all have waaaay more knowledge of these than I do. I have owned about 50 or so and maybe handled that many more.....I think I might have a weird printers scrap '09 and will try to post it this evening...not sure about it though....

edited for typo

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Posted By: scott brockelman

At one time I was doing the 09 obak set both ways framed and frameless, I was near completion on both variations and finally saw no point in pursuing it, so I merged the 2. I probably handled 250-300 1909 obaks in the process(probably more) and found the population to be about 50/50. Most, but not all of the frameless appear to be handcut but well circulated, so i have no reason to believe they are anything but a legit card. I must add that i have several frameless with misaligned color runs, perhaps this was the first run and fraught with production problems. I do not believe I ever saw a framed one that appeared handcut.

Perhaps Mark Macrae can add more.


THERE I JUST ADDED A PRODUCTIVE POST AND AM ENTITLED TO BUMP ALL MY MISERSABLE BST POSTS

bullcrap- (mod dude)

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Posted By: Bob B.

My L.A. Beall and Smith Have frames. My L.A. Howard does not.

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Posted By: Bob

I would echo Scott B.'s sentiment that he has never seen a framed back which appeared hand-cut. I concur. I believe all non-frameline backs to be hand cut even though a handful have found their way in to SGC and PSA holders as apparently untrimmed. I have no way of knowing if these hand cut cards were released for distribution as Scott believes. My experience is that every non-framelined back 1909 Obak I have submitted was bounced back as trimmed and yet I have purchased a handful on ebay in SGC and PSA holders which made it. My only guess is that someone out there can do a damn fine job of trimming up borders to get past the grading companies.
The blank backed appears to be either scrap or possibly cut from a poster. I have M116s, T205s, T206s and T207s in my collection which are all blank backed and I believe all of them to be cut from posters because of the irregular borders, and not scrap.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

Bob,

I don't think the blank backs are from posters cut up, there are way too many of them circulating. Imagine another series where nearly 50% of the known cards were cut from posters, I don't think you would find 1% of them from any type of advertising.

Also I can't think they are printers scrap as most are fully finished cards, and not partial press runs, further if they were printers scrap they should have the same back as the framed, the frame most certainly wasn't added later.

Scott

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Posted By: Mark Macrae

From my experience, 1909 Obaks are the least "consistant" among the three years of baseball cards issued by John Bollman. A close second would be Series of 150 cards from 1910. Printing can vary dramatically with some individual colors missing, lightly impressed, or overimpressed. In addition, the size and cut can vary dramatically, as commonly seen on 1909 groups. Blank & wrong backs are known as well. Based on the 100 plus groups of Obaks that I've brought into the hobby from outside sources (Quantities ranging from 10 to over 2000 in each group) over the last 35 years, it is safe to assume that "handcut" 1909's were distributed to the general public in the year of issue. This is not counting the numerous "inside the hobby" cards that I've seen or owned during that timeframe, which also exhibit similar traits. I've only seen a small percentage of 10's & 11's which are handcut from the period. Most of those cards exhibit other missing characteristics indicating that they are most likely printer's scrap. Whether or not grading companies want to grade these should not be a factor in collecting them. Individual collectors have to decide for themselves what they want to collect. If you're going to collect abalone shells, you better get used to water stains.... Much like Scott B decided, I've opted to save the nicest of each card, regardless of back & only hang on to the most striking color / printing variances........... P.S. Leon, Does this mean I can list my 305 page catalog on the B/S/T thread ?

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Posted By: leon

only 305 pages.....not one more.....

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Posted By: warshawlaw

EOM

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Posted By: Bob

Scott- I agree with you, I guess I didn't make myself clear enough, what I meant was that the 205, 206 and 207 and 116s were from posters, not the 1909 Obaks. You're right, there's no way that many handcut cards could be from posters. You have to wonder if an early attempt at printing and distributing Obaks in 1909 resulted in sloppy hand cut cards and then later in 1909, the company realized that they needed for both aesthetic and economic reasons to be cut by machine, resulting in the traditional cut. Perhaps this might mean that the frameless ones were issued first and the framed ones issued second?
Bob

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Well, I sure don't know anything about the card. But the picture of Jansing looks more like they dressed up the old guy who takes the gate tickets and said ... "stand here, and hold this bat".