t206 old mill sl double overprint scan

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Posted By: robert a

Hi folks,
I wanted to post this scan (from Jerry Totino)of the SL double overprint so that we could compare it with the single overprint. After looking at the 3 of them next to each other, I'm not sure if there is any rational reason for the upside down overprint. Any thoughts?
By the way, I hope Louis doesn't mind that I posted his card again.
Robert

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Posted By: fkw

I have always thought the "single" upside down overprint was an accident by the printers that wasnt caught. And the "double" overprint was when the printers again accidently put the sheet in upside down and when they saw the goof they did it again the right way.

I never knew the overprint was red. Now I see It is the same exact overprint commonly found on Sweet Caporal cards, so it is really just a printers goof. It shows that the Old Mill Southern Leaguers cards were printed in the same factory as the Sweet Caporal 150 subject cards. I guess they only goofed a couple sheets with that overprint. Very Rare and interesting.



Frank

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Posted By: Anonymous

no way were these overprints intended to be on an Old Mill back. Wrong color to start with, upside down, and the bar isn't even long enough to overprint the original factory designation on the cards.

Neat cards: yes.

Bad day at the print shop: yes.

Super rare back that should be listed as the most rare of all T206 back variations: NO.

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Posted By: Jerry Totino

Based on the few old mill examples I have seen there appears to be 2 distinct patterns relative to the overprint bar color and the old mill back itself. In particular, the black overprint bars seem to only come with a black old mill back. On the other hand the red overprint bars (1 or 2) appear to come with only a brown old mill back. Based on this observation I'm not so convinced that these printings were unintentional. Why would the printer go through the trouble of changing the overprint bar color if it was a one time freak printing? There are no other overprint bars in T206 that make use of the black color. If these overprints all had red bars I could buy the theory that the bar was intended for a different back/sheet and was printed by mistake. As I mentioned before why would the printer go through the trouble of matching the black overprint bar to a black old mill back.

Additionally, the 2 black old mill overprints I am aware of are not hand cut. They are factory cut to standard size.

I have never been able to locate a brown old mill that was not trimmed on 1 or more sides. I would be very curious to know if the brown old mill overprints follow the same pattern (i.e. hand cut)

Any thoughts?

Jerry

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Posted By: fkw

Is there actually a black overprint? I may be wrong, but I think the one that looks black (card on the left) is actually a B&W picture of a red overprint card. The overprint is exactly the same in size, fac/dist # etc. as the red one. Does anyone have a clear color picture of a black overprint OM back?

Im not a T206 factory number expert, but Why would they intentionally overprint a Fac 25 2nd Dis VA. Southern Leaguer OM card with the same factory (Fac 649 1st Dis NY) as the Sweet Caporal card??

BTW The card on the right Greminger is the same card that is pictured in Lipsets "T" card book


Frank

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Posted By: barrysloate

How many of these red overprints are known? I've handled countless T206 but never even saw one of these until this thread started. They are really striking.

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Posted By: Jerry Totino

Frank,

I own an Old Mill Overprint that has a black bar. The scan you are looking at in the above post is not my card, but I can assure you that the bar is definitely black. Thus, there are 2 distinct color type combinations for this back (i.e. black bar with black old mill back and red bar(s) with brown old mill back).

Jerry

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Posted By: robert a

Frank,
Of course, I'm not an expert either, but why are any t206 overprinted?
I figured that the product (in this case Old Mill SL cards) were sent from the VA factory to the NY factory for distribution in the NY area. The NY factory decided to overstrike their line over the VA line, but did it backwards. As discussed in the eariler thread, the red ink (and brown ink) are the same colors used on other cards that came out of the NY factory (Sweet Cap, Hindu). One sheet might have been a correction of the upside down strike (which still missed the original line). I think the brown with red overprints are printers scrap. The Greminger looks hand cut just like the blank backs that I have.

It would be nice to know around how many are out there of each. Again, more than a few collectors include these on their back checklists, but not sure how many actually exist. They are "striking" though!

Merry X-Mas everyone!

Robert

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Robert,
A couple of things:

1. Southern Leaguers were never distributed in the Northeast.
2. All of the cards were produced by the American Lithograph Co. in the same factory, then distributed to the Tobacco factory for insertion.
3. The fronts and backs were not printed at the same time.
4. The Old Mill over strikes are simply printing error's nothing more. There are less than 6 known Red 649's, and less than a dozen Black Over prints. And none, and my opinion were ever inserted into packs.

Are the cards rare? Absolutely! Valuable? Yes. Should they be included in a "rare back" set? Not in my opinion.


Happy Holidays Brian

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Posted By: robert

Hi Brian,

First of all, Thanks for chiming in and giving me a much needed lesson/reminder on how these were created and distributed.

So, please correct me if I'm wrong. All T206 card fronts were produced at The American Lithograph Co. (in New York), but then sent to separate factories who were in charge of putting the tobacco ads on the back, placing the cards into the packs and distributing them to the surrounding area. Therefore, Southern Leaguers were partially printed (the fronts) in New York, but were never distributed in the area?

If they were never distributed in the NE, why do the cards have the NY factory overstrike on them? Are you saying that the Va factory accidently overprinted a NY factory line twice on the card?

By the way, do you think Old Mill and Lenox Brown should be included in a rare back set?

Robert

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Robert,
All of the printing was done, front and back at the American Lithograph company. Then the cards were shipped to each factory for "targeted" distribution. Where the Tobacco factory was located had no baring on where the cards were distributed.The Hindu brand is a perfect example, it was produced in NY, but wasn't sold there. It was strictly a Southern Brand, and in fact a deep southern brand with most advertising and distribution in the Texas and Lousiana area.
I would be happy to discuss the process further, but my lovely wife is holding a screw driver and pointing at all of my childrens Christmas presents that need assembling.

Happy Holidays Brian

Robert, I can tell by the tone of your post, that you believe I was talking down to you in some manner. I can asshure that was not my intention, and I wish you a very happy Holiday.

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Posted By: robert a

Brian,

Thanks again for the info. It has been a great help. I'm here to learn and usually learn as I go, so perhaps my tone was more suggestive of my lack of confidence due to my ignorance with the set. I really didn't mean to suggest that you were talking down to me. I've enjoyed your posts and look forward to more.

Cheers.

Robert