one grading company says Trimmed, another says not

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Posted By: cmoking

When one grading company grades a card as trimmed, but another puts a grade on it...what are your thoughts? (between PSA SGC GAI as the graders)

- look for worst...so if any says trimmed, then it is trimmed.
- look for the best...if one puts a number on it, then go with it
- trust a specific grader's opinion over any others (be it any of the three)
- another alternative

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Posted By: Jim F

I don't want to start anything and I don't know which companies you are talking about but, I have first hand knowledge of many trimmed cards that were rejected by PSA and made thier way into GAI holders. Jim

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Posted By: cmoking

I'm not trying to start a controversy between the 3 grading companies...just wondering what people do. I have seen cards go in all possible combinations (i.e. PSA says trimmed, SGC grades it ..... SGC says trimmed, PSA grades it...etc.)

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Posted By: identify7

Go with whatever your objectives are: if you do not accept trimmed cards, reject all cards that each of the three graders do not agree on. However, all cards not in full sheets are trimmed. Some have been additionally cut. Like with the Polar cards: there is a degree of uncertainty with many assessments. If you want a guarantee, then pre-war cards may not be your best choice for a hobby. Want more cliches?

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Posted By: Marc S.

With the exception of GAI [I do not submit to them often, just once] - I have had examples with both PSA and SGC were cards were rejected as trimmed once [sometimes even twice] that were encapsulated the following time.

What do you do? <Shrug> - what can you do? At some level - if you believe in SGC [or PSA, or whomever]'s ability to grade properly - perhaps they were erring on the side of caution the first time. On the other hand - mistakes do slip through. Every company.

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Posted By: Jim F

It's inevitable that trimmed cards will find thier way into all holders, but when REALLY bad trim jobs keep finding thier way into the same companies holder it is not a good thing. Especially when that company is considered to be part of the big 3 and people are spending more and more for cards graded by this company. Jim

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Is the card trimmed and being encapsulated or is it untrimmed and being wrongfully rejected? Unless you can answer this question, you cannot answer the question of who is right.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I once sent a card to a major grading service that was returned with "evidence of trim", disagreed with them, resent it back to them two months later and it came back holdered. Do I have to reveal this when I sell it? To be perfectly honest, I didn't. I felt they were wrong the first time but got it right the second, so my conscience was clear.

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Posted By: tbob

Jim- I don't mean to start a thread abvout PSA but I can tell you of a number of cards rejected by GAI for trimming which wound up in PSA holders as graded. I think you can not single out any one grading company as more tolerant than another, at least as far as the Big 3 go, as the general rule. Personally, I see more pre-war cards which appear trimmed in PSA holders than SGC and GAI combined, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

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Posted By: scott ingold

Ditto what tbob said.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

I know Rob Lifson thinks both SGC and PSA nmake mistakes sometimes--and he'll sometimes mention them on the catalogue page too!---he seems to considier a grading company as a kind of "second voice" to add to his own opinion.

There's is one rule he follows, though--two strikes and it's out..not three. Y'don't send a card in a third time--either to another comopany, or re-submitted to one of the same companies...it is, if rejected by two comopanies, ungradable.

Whatever THAT means!

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Posted By: Jim F

TBob. I'll repeat, every company has made and will continue to make mistakes and there are bad cards in every company's holders. And again, I don't want to start anything. But mark my words, there are more bad cards percentage wise in 1 company's holders than the other 2. The one thing that everyone really has to understand is that there are a lot of dealers/collectors out there trying to beat these companies to make a few bucks. Unless a card is being graded by the most experienced graders on staff, bad cards will continue to get through. This is one topic that I honestly do not feel comfortable discussing on an open forum because it really does more damage than good to the hobby. Jim

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Posted By: Jim F

cmoking, sorry, I think i hijacked your thread. Jim

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Posted By: Anonymous

Here is an idea. If you are worried about having trimmed cards in your collection, why don't you learn how to look at a card and determine if it's trimmed yourself. I have been atacked here for pointing out edges on cards that appear trimmed so I don;t bother anymore.Down the raod, PSA's biggest nightmare will be when and if their collectors actually learned how to evaluate cards for grade and trimming.

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Posted By: cmoking

sometimes it is impossible to tell with my own naked eye, even with eyeglasses. maybe you have superior eyesight to me....good for you.

I'm trying to keep this from being a PSA vs SGC vs GAI thread. You're the one that brought it up. I do have cards graded by SGC that were rejected by PSA...and by the naked eye, I can't tell. I've also had cards rejected by SGC and graded by PSA...and I can't tell some of those either. I'm looking for help...you claim you have been attacked...your post sounds like an attack to me.

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Posted By: WP

CMOKING. Have you given it an honest try. Take some stacks of EX to EX-MT raw cards and study them, fronts, backs and the grain. Then try to look for trimming.

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Posted By: cmoking

yes I have...thank you very much.

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Posted By: cmoking

I've found that trim jobs aren't as simple as sizes. Cards just weren't perfectly cut in the same sizes in those olds days. There is more to it than that, and I can't see them sometimes. So help me. Got any ideas what I can use to look at? I'd have though those grading companies had superior technology and were using them to identify trimjobs on those cards that do fit the size requirements....but when they are inconsistent with each other, that's what I am questioning.

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Posted By: cmoking

one grading company says yes. another says no. Is it?
It looks exactly as it does in person as in the scan. I cannot see the sides because of the holder. Can you tell? If so, please point out the telltale signs, or lack thereof.

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Posted By: WP

It is not meant to be an attack. It's hard for me to tell you what to look at. I am assuming your primary focus are Goudey issues. The sizes vary tremendously, I would say 99% of Goudeys were cut the same way and have a flat grain with diagnol "cut lines" in them. Again my advise is to get your hands on some cards that you know are not trimmed and study the edges,

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Posted By: WP

I cant for sure but I see no signs of trimming in the scan.

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Posted By: cmoking

ok Wally...I'm calming down...my apologies.

It is cards like this that I'm talking about. Where it is just not obvious - from a scan or in person, yet one company will say it is trimmed. But the size is fine, the edges/corners don't look different, everything looks normal to me. What could they see that they think it's trimmed. And yet, another reputable company says is fine. It is issues like this that I am wondering about.

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Posted By: cmoking

this card was in a PRO 7.5 holder. So that's what worried me. I won't say who (PSA or SGC) graded it and who said it was trimmed, because I'm not trying to create a stir between those two. But the fact it was in a PRO 7.5 holder to begin with makes me wonder....yet it looks fine. Both companies received the card ungraded, not in another holder.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

King,

If it's PRO encapsulated then there's a very good chance the card could be trimmed. I wouldn't submit the card in the PRO holder for a crossover because there's a good chance it will be rejected (guilt by association).

I've submitted cards to PSA that were rejected for being trimmed. I resubmitted some of those later (back to PSA) and they graded them with 8's the second time around.

In a lot of cases it just could be a matter of "when" the card will grade rather than be rejected as trimmed.

Everyone knows the saying about cards and slabs... "buy the.... "

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Posted By: cmoking

Fred, just to make it clear - the card is no longer in a PRO holder. It was in a PRO 7.5 holder. Now it is in a legitimate companies holder - but only having been rejected by another legit company for being trimmed.

Why did I send it to two different companies? Because I couldnt' tell what the heck the first one was seeing. And I wanted another opinion. I figured if I get it back as trimmed again, then there is clearly something I'm missing. If I get it back graded...well, I don't exactly know what to think...and that's where I'm looking for help.

It sounds like the answers most are telling me is:
- no one is 100% sure on some cards. it's a tricky game.

And that sounds wierd...because the value of a PSA 8 vs Authentic or SGC 88 vs Trimmed ... is so large...and yet, it seems there is a fine line between knowing exactly if it was trimmed or not. That's scary from a buyer's standpoint. That's scary for me.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

the bottom right corner has a little waviness to me.

GAI is very careful and I do like them, just not
the ugly holders.

None of the big 3 are going to be right all the time.

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Posted By: David Vargha

Without inspecting it in person, the thing that jumps out at me is that the upper right corner is so sharp compared to the other three.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

King,

Sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you don't. I guess people that have submitted a few cards have run into what you have at one time or other. It's kind of disheartening if you're a purist because you're a bit conflicted after a grading company rejects it the first time. If once you don't succeed....

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Posted By: FYS

My understanding is that PSA uses trim rejections somewhat arbitrarily to increase revenues. It is assumed that a majority of the cards will be resubmitted, which drives up profits. Same reason for some of the inconsistent grading. Grade some low and you know there will be some resubmittals. Absolute brilliance! Public companies with large market share and a religious following can afford and must take part in questionable activities to improve share price. PSA clones, please put your guns away and understand that I am trying to add humour to this always serious debate. Happy Holidays and enjoy the cardboard!

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

If a card is in a PSA SGC or GAI holder I start with the presumption that it is not trimmed or otherwise unacceptably altered. If it is disproportionately short, or if I learn that the card has been rejected on more than one occasion for trimming or something else, I start to question it even though someone has slabbed it. Given that most cards I buy are not rarities, if it starts to bother me too much, I will just sell it (or return it if that option is available) and buy another. And while it is a somewhat difficult question, on balance I don't think a seller has an obligation on a slabbed card to reveal its grading history, unless specifically asked.

The way I see it, you have to be practical. Although there are people with a significant degree of expertise on these matters, there are still cases that are not clear cut (no pun intended), and inevitably mistakes are made as well. Indeed, does anyone know what standard of proof the grading services employ? To analogize to my favorite profession, do they have to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt a card is untrimmed before slabbing? If they have some doubt, but it is more likely than not it is OK, do they slab? Does anyone know?

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Posted By: FYS

The fact of the matter is that all three companies will make mistakes. There are variations because of different graders and different individual company policies. A newer grader may reject a large percentage of cards, because their comfort level is not there and they would rather error on the side of caution. You could also say the reverse and the new person lets too many trimmed versions go by. Someone noted reasonable doubt, I am sure all companies have this subjective grading outline. This will change with every person and every company. Even the same person can change year to year. So there will be variability.

The real question is: Who makes the least amount of mistakes and who will guarantee to pay you back when they do make a mistake? There is only one answer to that question fellow collectors. So the choice is relatively easy, but sunk and switching costs prevent many from making logical choices. I am confortable spending the money because SGC will make less mistakes than me and they will give me my money back if there is an error.