How much of a premium does the Nagy label bring?

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Posted By: Richard

Some of the "Nagy Collection" E92's that ended tonight seemed to bring some really strong money. Either I am behind the times on the pricing, or the Nagy label brought a considerable premium.

Are people willing to spend significantly more for the "Nagy Collection" designation on the flip?

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Posted By: steve yawitz

I was wondering that too. I was close on one of those cards, but not even in the neighborhood on most of them. I guess it's a combination of provenance and the interest generated by offering such a large number of cards at once.

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Posted By: joe maples

I won 2 of the cards tonight, the e92 Jennings and the e92 Schmidt. I paid more than I wanted, but have not been winning any bids lately. The caramel cards are still selling very well. The Nagy label had no influence on my bidding. I already own items that I bought from Frank Nagy years ago.

Joe

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Posted By: JimB

I like to think that coming from the private collection of one of the hobby pioneers adds some desirability to the cards, but it is probably hard to quantify. I may be a bit biased since I won some of the Nagy E94s in the Mastro auction.
JimB

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Posted By: Kelly

I won the E92 Bridwell. I paid a bit more for the card, but it had nothing to do with the Nagy label. I rarely see this card in gradeable shape, so I paid stronger for it than any other SGC50. I now have only 7 cards left to complet my set. It is kind of neat to see his name on the label, but had zero influence in what I paid.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Did people pay a premium for the Harris Collection of T206 cards (encapsulated and designated Harris Collection by PSA)? I think people did pay a little more for those cards so having the Nagy name associated with cards certainly wouldn't have hurt the value of the cards. Now that PSA Mr. X thing was pretty ridiculous (IMO) because nobody knew who Mr. X was when the cards were sold. I guess it's always kind of interesting (as a conversation piece) to say So and So owned this piece of memorabilia before I did. I have a couple of pieces from the Barry Halper auction that I consider more interestig because of the collection from which they came.

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Posted By: cmoking

It reminds me of an episode of a King of Queens sit-com. Arthur (the father-in-law played by Jerry Stiller, the same guy that played George Costanza's father in Seinfeld) isn't interested in a woman, until he is told by the woman that she once slept with Frank Sinatra. When he heard that, he was all over her!

Nagy, Harris, are obviously incredible collectors. The fact the cards once belonged to them doesn't change the card for me. But I can see how some people may care a little. The prices on those auctions last night were strong, even for the low graded ones (SGC 30, SGC 10).

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Posted By: identify7

Sinatra is a name known by most people, Nagy by far less. Purchasing a card with the provenance listed on its holder is a form of "buying the holder".

Although both the provenance and grade have staying power, depending on whose provenance is associated with the card, it may increase or decrease in value over time. That is, if Mr.X was identified as Sinatra, for example, the value of that holder would likely outperform the same card holdered in a Nagy identified slab, because Nagy's importance will diminish as new unknowing collectors enter the hobby and the dinosaurs leave; while the Sinatra legacy will be reinforced by society. imo.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I wouldn't pay any premium for a Nagy card, but if I were selling it I wouldn't hesitate to mention it. Then the next buyer can decide what it is worth to him.

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Posted By: Marc S.

I was surprised to see the E92 Dockman Magee SGC 40 sell for $415 last night. It was definitely a very nice looking 40 - but I picked up an E93 Nadja Magee SGC 40 six weeks ago for $235. Did I just get a really good deal, or was that Dockman Magee out of whack?

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Posted By: cmoking

I picked up a E92 Magee PSA 4 for $200 last week. I thought that was a fair price. I think the prices on the one last night was sky high.

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Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)

On most items, it would be a nice plus to have it from the Nagy collection, but I would not pay a premium.

Maybe on a real expensive item such as teh T206 Wagner, but not on a common E92.

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Posted By: Scott Gross

To answer the titled question ... up to 3X ... (put up a raw, trimmed, back damaged e92 common, and see what you get) ... Happy Winter Solstice to all ...

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Posted By: .

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Posted By: JimB

My Mastro lots just arrived today and they have the "Nagy Collection" on them. I personally like it.
JimB

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Posted By: robert a

It's not just the Nagy label, it's the sgc authentic thing.
I've never seen e cards that aren't significant in any way with the authentic label graded by sgc.

Like scott said, cards outside of these holders that have a vintage trim and other damage would bring far less.

Robert

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Posted By: quan

so is the AUT label a good thing? if an unslab trimmed VG e92 dockman common brings about $25, slapping an SGC AUT label plus a known pedigree on it somehow makes it a $200 card, then I don't think so.

I don't want the AUT label to somehow legitimizes trimmed/altered cards where it'll bring the 2nd boom in the prewar vintage card craze. AUT should only be used for special/unique/scarce items, not a common e93...and I see SGC not being consistent on what they choose to slab as authentic and some they just reject as trimmed or altered.

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Posted By: Richard Masson

I know it's irrational, perhaps, but I feel better knowing its a vintage trim job, rather than a Copeland era (or even more recent) trim job.

Grading companies should have started slabbing trimmed cards as authentic long ago.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Copeland era trim job? Sounds like you feel Copeland got taken to the cleaners (or the hedge clippers).

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Posted By: Richard

I don't think that SGC slabbing "AUTH" means that it is a vintage trim job. It just means that it is trimmed. Does the combination of "Nagy" and "AUTH" mean vintage trimmed? I don't know the history of Nagy and his buying habits, but how does one know if it is something that he acquired in his early years vs. his later years?

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Posted By: barrysloate

SGC AUT does not necessarily mean trimmed. If a card was issued too small to meet their size specifications, the best it can get is an AUT holder. That does not mean that SGC automatically feels it is trimmed.

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Posted By: Richard

Barry - I understand what you are saying and agree. I was just trying to make the point that whatever caused the card to be slabbed "AUT" with a "Nagy" name, how could one determine if it was something that was done long ago vs. more recently. Just because it says Nagy does not mean that its shortness/alteration/trimming etc was done back in the early 1900's.

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Posted By: robert a

Hi richard,
I just happened to use the phrase "vintage trim." It doesn't really matter (to me) when a card was trimmed anyways. My point was only that these trimmed cards seemed to have brought a little more money because they were encapsulated.

Barry: When I submit cards that are too small for minimum size, sgc sends them back. Do they only do it when they feel like it or do you have to call and ask?

Robert

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Posted By: barrysloate

You can't determine when or if a card was trimmed, but didn't Frank Nagy assemble this collection a very long time ago? And despite what Richard Masson feels, what difference does it make if it was trimmed in 1962 or 2002? The result is the same- unless you put a premium on a vintage trim.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Yes, I believe you have to say to them "if any of these cards don't meet the requirements, please put them in an AUT holder." Of course that tips them off that you feel something is wrong with one or more of the cards you submitted, but it still beats getting them back unslabbed.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

I am only a sheep, see other thread, but I fail to understand the difference between a "vintage trim" and a modern one. Who cares with what intent a card was trimmed? Either it has an original factory cut, or it was trimmed subsequent to being issued. If anything a more recent trim may be less conspicuous. EDITED TO FIX TYPO AND TO ACKNOWLEDGE I SEE BARRY JUST POSTED A SIMILAR THOUGHT WHILE I WAS COMPOSING THIS MESSAGE

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Posted By: Richard Masson

I am odd, I know, but I actually don't mind a really attractive, creaseless, colorful vintage card with slightly small borders over a graded card with visible significant defects, especially at one tenth the price.
"Vintage trimming" and cards originally cut slightly too small are to me indistinguishable. Nagy bought his cards years ago and was not condition conscious. His "authentic" cards are probably just that-

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Posted By: Richard

I would also rather have a nice looking slightly trimmed card over a beat sgc 10 at a fraction of the price. But these Nagy "AUT" cards received incredible bids.

The one I was hoping for was the Lajoie Cocoa which was very visibly trimmed - probably about 1/8" gone from the bottom. It sold for something like 330. Nuts.

Edited to say - I agree, trimmed is trimmed no matter when it was done. Especially when 1/8" is gone.

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Posted By: leon

I would take nicely worn corners over a vintage, or any other era, trim....anyday...as I would assume anyone would..wouldn't they?

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Vintage trimmed? Could you imagine being a kid back in the early 1900's and complaining to your dad that the Cocoa card you got was short or shorter than others? Maybe collectors cut down the larger size E cards to match the more prevalent T206 cards. I honestly believe that some cards were just cut differently than others. The idea of a minimum size requirement for grading may be good in most cases but it has probably precluded authentic factory "short" cut cards from being encapsulated some 90 years later.

Oops, another deviation from the main topic, sorry.

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Posted By: Richard Masson

No, not at all. You're right on target.
Many of the Nagy AUTs I have appear Ex-they've been handled and "used" since whatever alleged trimming occured.
They are not the offensive 1/8" short specimens with sharp corners, an obvious attempt at deception.

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Posted By: Richard

1/8" cut off is not someone trying to deceive. 1/8" is a lot to be missing, especially on a small caramel card. When I said that the Lajoie had 1/8" of the bottom lopped off, I was trying to say that it is a hell of a lot of card to be gone. If someone was trying to shave edges to clean up a card, there would be something like 1/32" gone.

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Posted By: Anonymous

perhaps some collectors (not you flippers and investors) have been discouraged by the escalating prices of vintage cards and would rather have a card that is authentic and has nice visual appeal in all respects except that it was trimmed (possibly to fit a binder sheet) rather than a creased and dirty low grade example...

...and seeing that a legendary collector was also content to own such a card...thought it was worth a few "irrational" $$ to obtain it

edited with great sadness:

..it's not too far fetched to think that some bidders on these were counting on PSA to slab them in 5/6/7 holders

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Here is an interesting prior thread on "trimmed cards" that seems to be relevant again:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1126101429/POLL-++Trimmed+Card+Prices