Gehrig '33: Real? [With Back of Card Included]

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Posted By: Aron

If you feel comfortable commenting, wondering if you think this is a real card. I included the back of the card in case someone would like to comment on it.

Link: http://user.auctions.yahoo.com/user/ncauct?aucview=0x74

Thx

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Posted By: fkw

Its authentic or a fake made from a picture of an authentic card. The keys I look at are the top of the bat and the right side of the red strip extending into the border slightly. Most reprints will have the border clean and sharp with straight edges to the photo area. The paper, color, and wear/stains look good too. Frank

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Posted By: jay behrens

with Goudeys, a back scan is a must. If it has a the wet sheet transfer, then the card is good. A fakle will never have this feature.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I fully agree with Jay B., you can better determine if a card is real or a
fake by the back. Now, this card I would bet is the #160 card of Gehrig,
just because the higher # of him usually has a lighter blue background.
The #92 version of Gehrig has a slightly darker blue color.

There are really good reproductions of vintage cards out there, but the
backs of these cards reveal that they are not originals.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I don't like the corner wear now that I see both sides. Looks like someone took sandpaper after them. I also don't see the bleed thru, so I'd very leery of this card and get someone to examine it that knows Goudeys well or have it sent off to one of the slabbers.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

I'm guessing that the card is FAKE. Look at all the other cards this person has for sale. I couldn't imagine them taking little to nothing for them in a Yahoo auction.

Other than that I really hate that pinkish tone on the back of the card. It's absolutely possible that the scan could be a poor representation but that tone just seems to give it away. I've seen quite a few scans or pictures of fake Goudey's with this color tone to them.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

The linked to Yahoo seller is neither auctioning or apperears to have auctioned a 1933 Goudey Gehrig. Is this a preview?

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Posted By: Elliot

IMO, that's not even an original reprint. It's a photocopy of a real card, that after photocopying has had the corners worked on to make it appear low grade. Low grade=not worth slabbing in some people's mind, plus it hides the fact that it's a photocopy. Not to mention the typical warning signs of Yahoo auctions, etc. that other people have mentioned.

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Posted By: fkw

Below is a scan of a #160, but it will show that the blead through is not obvious on all cards. Of my R319s about 1/2 show the overprint from wet sheets..... not all. The card above could be a homemade fake made from the picture (scan) of an authentic card. You would need to see it in person to be sure. On the card pictured here (below) you can just slightly see the overprint of the red strip at bottom of back.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

I'm 99% sure it's a fake. Here's a real one....

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

The blue area should have square corners with white edging....not rounded like on the fake one:





Frank

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I think you people missed the point of my post. Did any of you think that perhaps the original poster is someone asking this board advice on how to make a better fake?

If Aron is a bidder/buyer (though the card is not for auction on Yahoo) and the seller is the linked to seller (though this seller isn't/hasn't offered a 1933 Goudey Gehrig), my advice would be to pass on bidding/buying. Simple as that.

In bidding, it's not just whether or the item looks real but whether you should bid. When the seller is a 0 feedback Yahoo seller offering the other 'beauties,' there's is no need to even look at a picture to decide whether or not to bid on an ungraded 1933 Goudey Lou Gehrig.

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Posted By: Brian E.

David:

I thought the same thing...I don't have much knowledge on the Goudey's but to me it looked like just another doctored reprint. I'm not familiar with the poster, so the thought crossed my mind that the person "might" be fishing for ways to improve bogus cards.

Brian E.

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Posted By: fkw

The card in the screwdown is not a reprint. If anything it may be a homemade fake made using a scan of an authentic card that was then printed out on an inkjet printer. They are seen on eBay often. These are the toughest auctions to be certain on.

A true reprint is far different, most are obtained from the Larry Fritsch Cards Inc. catalog. They will have design differences mainly in the cropping of the picture or the caption. On this Gehrig card the only way to be certain it is authentic is to see it in person and check the card stock and thickness.



Below is an example of the R319 Ruth #181 card
notice how the black line of the drawing is cropped where it hits the border. The whole picture has been cropped when the reprint was made.

Authentic on left/Reprint on right


Authentic on top/ Reprint on bottom




Frank

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Posted By: Shannon

The card is a 100% fake. Frank E hit the nail on the head.

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Posted By: fkw

The rounded corner is from the wear. There are no reprints with rounded corners to the photo. Frank W

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Posted By: Shannon

How do you get rounding on the light blue corners, they are suppose to be square

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Some sound legal advice to eBay forgers: "I don't know if it's real or reprint" is only a sound legal defence to the person who doesn't know know if it's real or reprint, not the forger. If you are the maker of the reprint, meaning you know exactly what the card is, you are legally required to tell potential buyers what it is if this information is financially material. Forgers have gone to prison for not telling the buyers the identity/history of the item, even though it was true that they 'never said it was original at sale. It was the buyer's idea that it was original.'

I think eBay forgers selling their own creations feel that they are protecting themselves legally by saying at auction "I don't know if it's real or fake. You decide if it looks good to you." However, in a court of law, the average judge will find this defense laughable.

Say there's a case of a counterfeiter of US dollar currancy who used his counterfeits to buy goods from local businesses. What do you think the judge will think of his defense, "I never told the cashier the money was real and he never asked. If the cashier thought the money was real and gave me a stero in return, that was his decision"?

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Posted By: fkw

The white area of the corner is where the blue was rubbed off.


Example....... both of these cards have rounded corners of the background color, but they are authentic cards.



Frank W

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Posted By: Glenn

Please don't interpret this as an implication that I think the screwdown card is real (I do not), but I think what has been interpreted as rounding on the corners of the blue area is partially an optical illusion and partially due to general corner wear. If you place a straightedge along the left side of the screwdown card you'll see that there is no white showing to indicate that the upper-left corner of the blue area itself was ever rounded. If you do the same along the right side, there is some white showing in the upper-right corner, but this is more likely paper loss from advanced corner wear than a different color on the original surface of the card. I believe, as almost everyone else seems to, that the card is a counterfeit, but I don't think when it was originally printed (the card in the screwdown case I mean), there was any rounding of the blue area.

You can compare it to this example that just ended on ebay, and you'll see as much of the same effect on the known authentic card.



Just wanted to defend those who have low-grade examples of the real deal.

edited to add: looks like Frank beat me to the punch

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Posted By: Anonymous

Thanks for the feedback every one. The card was on auction last night. I didn't bid on it because I was skeptical and it seems my skepticism was well founded.

Aron

P.S. If you're interested in learning a little more about me, you can go to

http://profiles.takingitglobal.org/Aron

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Posted By: davidcycleback

According to the Yahoo auctions search, a 1933 Goudey Lou Gehrig was not being offered in a Yahoo auction last night.

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Posted By: Joann

David,

I agree with your speculation that this forum would be a great place to learn how to make better fakes. On the other hand, I learn a ton from this site about spotting fakes, and would hate to see people stop posting the helps and hints.

I know that many collectors say that the best way to tell the difference is to see and handle many cards, both real and fake. But I'm not financially situated to do that, nor am I geographically located to go to shows regularly.

So I learn visually, and read this forum, and occasionally purchase excellent treatises by experts that describe different printing methods over the years, etc. and how they relate to card authenticity . I watch ebay auctions by seller "carbs" all the time - he sells reprints advertised as such and I have a photo file of his reprints for the different sets just so I have a reference, or can look up where the word 'reprint' appeared. I have the M101 compare and contrast photos from PC's caramel-card.com site in the same file.

So I do try to research it, and appreciate the value of this forum to learn. That doesn't leave anyone any closer to a good balance between teaching honest buyers like me and teaching dishonest sellers, unfortunately.

Joann

PS - I also agree with your comment on not seeing a picture. I do that often on ebay just for practice - see how far I can get in a decision without ever looking at the card itself. One thing I look for is people here appearing in the bid history. So to those of you who routinely bid on the initial bid levels...thanks! I see your names and feel better about authenticity.

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Posted By: Erick Lewin

Just look at all his other Hofer cards he has from all those sets...and they all have the same rounded corner wear. At least change some of them so that you might trick someone. He's not even good at what he does.

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Posted By: Aron

Here's the link to the auction from last night.

http://page.auctions.yahoo.com/auction/95315663?aucview=0x74

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I stand corrected. The auction didn't show up my searches.

For future reference, a standard rule is to not buy a 1933 Goudey Babe Ruth from a a seller you don't trust (and know). In general the same will go for a Gehrig. These cards are reprinted left and right.

Don't buy vintage baseball cards from people who don't guarantee they are authentic. In fact, don't buy any memorabilia from sellers who don't guarantee they are authentic.

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Posted By: Glenn

I see that the seller wrote "this is not a scam." I find this is a very good way to tell if it's a scam or not. People who are trying to rip you off will usually tell you, "Oh, by the way, I'm a scoundrel and trying to prey upon your gullibility," whereas honest sellers, being honest, just come right out and let you know "this is not a scam."

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Posted By: Joann

heehee. My favorite part was "you will get the card pictured". Oh. OK. Thanks.

J

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Posted By: fkw

The best (funniest) one of the auctions is the N300 with the white back (back should be black). Now that I have seen all of the cards the Yahoo seller listed, these fakes are homemade from photos of authentic cards, sometimes the toughest ones to authenticate. The only one that looks to be a reprint is the R319 Bengough. These are not well made so they stand out a bit to someone who handles these cards. A couple of the better ones are the R319 Ruth and Gehrig.