Lelands/Clemente family problems

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Slightly off-topic but i know theres both Clemente fans and Leland fans here,and thought it was an interesting read



Report: Clemente family upset with memorabilia auction

June 5, 2005
NEW YORK (AP) -- Roberto Clemente's family is upset that pieces of the plane he died in are being auctioned off, according to The New York Times.

Lelands auction house is selling a light metal piece of the airplane, measuring 19 by 14 inches at its largest point, the paper reported on its Web site Saturday night. That section has a minimum auction price of $1,500.

A gray steel propeller, 14 by 79 inches, has a minimum price of $1,000.


The high bid for the first piece is $1,650 and the high for the second is $1,210. The auction, which includes 28 Clemente-related items, is to end June 24.

Clemente died on Dec. 31, 1972, when the DC-7 he was on during a relief mission crashed after takeoff from San Juan, Puerto Rico. The plane was headed to Nicaragua with supplies for earthquake victims.

``It's disgusting,'' Roberto Clemente Jr. was quoted as saying. ``It's a shame that something so sacred to my family would go on the market like this. It's ridiculous. It has nothing to do with baseball. He's a human being. He lost his life. There's nothing funny about that.''

The Clemente family will talk about whether they should take legal actions.

Joshua Leland Evans, the chairman and founder of the auction house, did not return messages from the paper seeking comment.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I heard the story on the radio too and I was wondering just how pieces of the plane became available? Where have they been for the last 32 years? That may be the crux of the issue.

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Posted By: dennis

i would think lelands would be above this type of thing.i find it disgraceful and morbid.no one should bid but i'm sure some will. SAD!

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Ty Cobb's skull?

Babe Ruth's femur?

I will not bid on anything in the Leland's auction if they include wreckage from Clemente's plane.

Dan

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Posted By: leon

That auction houses, in good conscience, would at least contact the family and get their feelings on the subject before doing this....I know money is money....but humanity is humanity.....Clemente died while doing charity work and was obviously a great human being....it would seem that would weigh in for something....regards

edited for spelling

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Posted By: David Vargha

Ted Williams' head?

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: WP

Hollyfields ear?

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I just looked at Leland's website and both pieces have already gotten bids. Some people are morbid.

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Posted By: Anson

Shame on Lelands but, even more so, shame on the goofus who's going to spend $1500+ on a piece of the plane.

Michael Jackson's nose?

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Posted By: Mark

Capitalism.....Just GRRRRRRRRRRRREAT!

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Posted By: DJ

Talk about a Group overreacting. Sure it's a tad on the distasteful side but welcome to the 21st Century.

We live in a society where anything can be purchased. Last week a dinner fork that Derek Jeter used sold for $107. Neil Armstrong's barber is selling his hair. You can purchase swatches with blood stains from Lincoln's assisination. Thurman Munson's airplane parts have been for sale. Britney Spears' chewing gum that she chucked at a someone is always on sale. What about swatches from the Hindenburg. Or pieces from the Buddy Holly plane.

As sick as it is, it's also a part of history...baseball history.

DJ

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Capitalism it may be, but Lelands should have at least informed the family and gotten feedback first. It's not like this is a million dollar item...for such a small piece of change wouldn't some sensitivity be in order?

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Posted By: Anson

Overreacting? Hardly. I think it just illustrates how sick and twisted, not to mention money-driven, our society has gotten. The fact that you consider it overreacting leads me to believe that we've become so desensitized that it doesn't appear to be a big deal. Consider your own father dying in a car and some doofus trying to sell the pants he was wearing at the time of the crash.

Just my opinon

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Posted By: Andrew

Public Outcry:

Clemente plane fragment, yes. Kennedy November 22, 1963 items, maybe. Artifacts from Lincoln assissination or other popular pre-1900 figureheads, no.

“A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.” - English Proverb

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Just my personal view, but I think that dealing in material like this is classless.

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Posted By: DJ

Anson,

You are probably right. As a person who watches 'pop culture memorabilia real close, I have become used to this to a certain degree. I remember reading about a passerbyer scooping up pieces of glass from Princess Diana's mangled automobile and selling the bits.

I can tell you that I'm easily offended but this doesn't bother me much. I'd be bothered if it was Ted Williams' head or if it was bone fragments from Clemente or something of that nature.

To me, it's what the piece represents in a historical sense, the end of ONE life (where there others on that plane?) and is it of poor taste? Yes, I'm not interested. So we should wait until all of Clemente's relatives pass away before putting this up for auction as to not offend them?

To me, it's a 'sick piece of sports history' that some person will show up in his collection to friends as to say: "Hey Bob, What Is That Hunk Of Plane There?" and Bob will happily tell the story in a proud fashion.

The beauty of the human being is the opinion and I seem to be alone on this island.

DJ

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Posted By: qualitycards.com

Don't know whats worse, Lelands offering this to the public or someone actually bidding on it!
We have all shown off items from our collections be it autographs, vintage cards or memorabilia. But a piece of a plane that once held Clemente before he died, thats horrible!
I guess the adage will apply, there's no such thing as bad publicity. Maybe so, But I won't bid on any of their stuff...jay

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Posted By: barrysloate

Our society has become so obsessed with "owning a piece of history" that the boundaries of what really is a piece of history has been stretched to the limit. Not every fragment of our past has historical significance: I think we agree that Ted Williams' uniform or game used bat does, but that his frozen head doesn't. But if that mummified noggin' of his hit the auction block, there's no doubt that a shameless stream of bidders would get in line for it. It has become a national obsession- and we wonder why the rest of the civilized world hates us and looks at us with such contempt.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

One only has to look back at ebay on Sept 12, 2001 to see how low a person can go. To Ebay's credit they quickly pulled any auction having to do with the tragedies of 9/11. There was a person in Texas who tried to ebay a piece of the space shuttle....they got a knock on their front door from the FBI.

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Posted By: tbob

I remember watching ESPN recently and seeing Josh Evan's smiling countenance talking about Ty Cobb's dentures. If they had a better provenance he would have bought them. I fully expect to see the bath tub that Jim Morrison died in coming up soon on Leland's memorabilia auction.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think that bathtub is still in Paris. Will have to work something out with the concierge.

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Posted By: Julie

the death of a public figure should NOT be auctioned, sold, or otherwize used for prrofit.

Other stuff, like Elvis' hair, just seem silly to me.Except the other day when i heard it was a dentist who bought Cobb's dentures, and had them displayed in his office, I thought it was sort of neat...dunno why. relevancy, I guess.

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Posted By: martin dalziel

This is Lelands folks, what do you expect.

At the first National I attended in Atlanta, Josh Evans response to a Federal League silver brush that I had was "Get that esoteric bull**** outta here. We only deal in real memorabilia, not crap like that".

That comment has saved me thousands over the years. I've never seen a need to share my monies with a company headed by such a classless blowhard.

I hope this Clemente story makes big news and that people vote with their wallets.

Tasteless and Classless - typical Lelands.

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Posted By: DJ

I have to chime in because everytime I turn on CNN, I see the story involving John Reznikoff of University Archives being interviewed about the Neil Armstrong hair. I think I've seen it three times today and I wasn't looking for it once. For those of you who don't know the story, the very personal Astronaut's barber sold the hair to 'celebrity hair' collector John Reznikoff for $3,000 and Armstrong's legal team has contacted the parties involved. By no way am I comparing the Clemente piece to Armstrong's hair.

The question here, outside of the fact that you all think that Lelands crossed the line by selling this low dollar item with the item itself being of questionable ethics, is Lelands getting 'free' publicity from this and is this good for them?

Didn't someone say that there is no such thing as bad publicity?

Every news junket has picked up on this story.

Just curious.

DJ

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Posted By: scgaynor

I really don't see the problem with selling this kind of stuff. This is no different than buying a piece of Lincoln's bed sheets, a piece of coal from the Titanic or a gold coin from the Atocha. It is a relic that relates to a legitimate historical event, even if that event ended in tragedy.

I doubt the bidders want to buy it so they can spit on it everyday. They want it because it relates to a person that they admire and they want a unique piece that relates to their existance.

As far as asking the family for their opinion, I can tell you from experience that it is rare for a family to give an item their blessing unless they are getting a cut of the proceeds.

Scott

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Posted By: barrysloate

Good or bad publicity is not the issue. The children of Roberto Clemente lost their father tragically. If it hurts them to see these pieces sold, it should end right there. Leland's doesn't need the commission; they are quite successful. They should simply respect the family's wishes. I know Josh reads this forum; I assume he will have something to say on this matter. Scott, your message came up while I was typing mine, so I have to disagree with you. I know how families with famous ancestors like to capitalize on their fame, but I think this situation is different. There are no survivors of the Titanic; all Clemente's children and his wife are still alive. Big, big, difference!

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Posted By: scgaynor

Barry, I understand your point, but does it make it more legit if the owner waits another 50 years and then they sell it?

If the money were going to a good cause, would it be Ok to sell it? Is the problem that somebody is making money on the sale of these items, or just the sale of the items in general?


scott

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Posted By: Frank

Lelands simply has no class. If Nicole Simpson's slashed remains were available, they'd find a way to list them.

Frank

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Actually I think there are still living survivors of the Titanic.

After doing some googling, it appears that there are at least three Titanic survivors still surviving.

Dan

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Posted By: barrysloate

Scott- Let me put it another way. My brother was killed in a boating accident when he was fourteen years old. My parents have never really gotten over it, and if someone tried to capitalize by auctioning off the boat, they would be beyond devastated- and I would be none too happy myself. Fifty years from now we will all be dead, so it would be a different matter. I don't have to tell you the pain the Clementes went through when Roberto, Sr. died. Please cut them a little slack and respect their wishes. And that is where I am coming from.

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Posted By: Judge Dred

The publicity this issue gets will definitely benefit the auction bottom line if public perception agrees that Leland's in doing the right thing. The final realized prices on the items wont amount to much and Josh is a pretty bright guy. I'm betting that he'll pull the items off the block. It's not like there's a lot of commission to be made.

I know this sounds stupid but what kind of proof/provenance is being provided with these items?

I'm curious, if the Clemente family didn't say anything about the items up for auction would anyone have criticized the sale of these items?

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Posted By: barrysloate

I thought I read that the last survivor of the Titanic died a couple of years ago. She was 107 I think. How old are the survivors? That happened 90 years ago, so I guess they could be under 100. And who is to say they still don't feel the hurt if they were children who lost their parents that night? We don't know.

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Posted By: DJ

While I can't relate to Barry's situation, I can see where he is coming from as far as his distress about the auction. I feel for him.

Despite that, this is a piece of history that ranks up there with the Oswald bullet, the tipped over Wild Bill Hickok chair, the shreaded gun that killed Selena and more. Is it sick? Yes. Is Lelands doing something wrong offering this? I still don't think so and that's simply one person's opinion.

I like Josh and he has never done anything to me. He has always been fair with me. Maybe I'm on my own Island on that one as well.

Here's from 1999:

An Internet auction of pieces of a plane that crashed in 1979 and killed New York Yankees catcher Thurman Munson was stopped when his widow complained.

``How can people do this? This is so vulgar and disgusting. I guess there's a price on anything in life,'' said Diana Munson.

Fragments of the wreckage were offered through eBay, an online auction service. Five bids had been received ranging from 1 cent to $12.54 for small pieces of metal and 2-inch pieces of nylon harness.

DJ

Edit to add: I just looked up the Titanic count and all I could find is that according to sites from last year, there were three living members. From 2004 until today...who knows.

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Posted By: Jim Hoffman

This is the lowest of the low. I can't imagine any reputable auction house ever thinking that this is okay to sell. The consigner is profiting off of Clemente's death, and Josh Evans is right there, ready to take his cut of the action.

I will never, EVER buy anything from Lelands, and I hope we find out who the consignor is, so they can also be blackballed from ever seeing a cent of my money.

There are some great people in this hobby, and there are some real chumps.

Joshua Evans is a chump.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Wow, i posted this thread about a minute before i went to work and wasnt sure what kind of response it would get.I didnt really think of it at the time of posting but my initial reaction was who would bid on something like that.I think the problem is that people are willing to bid on stuff like that so auction houses will continue to offer them.I applaud auctions that dont sell stuff related to a famous persons death(or famous incident) just to make money off it.Eventho im not a registered bidder with Lelands, im not sure something like this would make me totally blow them off for good,but it will make me think twice about them.

In a situation like this i think only relatives would have the moral right to sell something like this and assuming theyre not money hungry,it would probably be very distant relatives who never even met the person in question.

If you follow ebay youll notice when ever a baseball player dies,his items are all over ebay,and the prices they get the first few days becomes outrageous.People who sell those items are no better than Lelands in this instance.I remember when Willie Stargell died,the amount of items for him on ebay went from 250-300 at anytime up to 900 the next night

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Posted By: William

Barry, your first post in this thread questioned where the piece of the airplance has been for the past 32 years.

Atleast twice over the past ten years, a guy from Puerto Rico (I think) had setup at J. Paul show in Pittsburgh and had the piece of the airplane on display. I don't believe it was for sale, just for display.

From my understanding he hired divers to recover some of the wreckage.

I assume the piece in Lelands auction is the same piece on display at Pittsburgh shows, but who knows if it is the same piece or how many pieces this guy has.

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Posted By: barrysloate

A plane could shatter into a lot of pieces. Who knows.

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Posted By: Adam J. Moraine

Josh Evans,

PLEASE put the dignity, and class of the late Roberto Clemente, as well as his family before your own capital gain. You already have more millions than you know what to do with. Why benefit and capitalize from such a tragic event? DO THE RIGHT THING, JOSH!

Best Regards,

Adam J. Moraine

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Posted By: DJ

I doubt that one pleading response (or even the opinions here) will get Josh to do the right thing.

I think the Clemente's will put a stop to the sale and the item will probably be pulled.

I like the fact that several of you say you will refuse to ever bid on any more Lelands merchandise. While Lelands isn't really a place to go for 'vintage cards', would that change your tune if suddenly they had a great find cardboard find? Hmmm...

DJ

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Posted By: Bryan

Let's just hope one of the big card manufacturers doesn't buy the pieces and turn them into memorabilia cards.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

DJ,Josh Evans reads this board,occasionally posts, and im sure hes read how many people read this board per day, and its alot higher than you would think.He also knows many are not only bidders in Lelands but also potential bidders and while its not a consensus opinion,it is overwhelming in favor of the auction being in poor taste.I wouldnt doubt the power this board has among auction houses that deal in the vintage card/memorabilia area.

Altho im a huge Pirates fan and therefore a Clemente fan,i didnt start the thread to make a statement towards Lelands choice to auction this item.It has however turned into that thread and when so many people agree,its happened for a good reason.I believe some sort of statement will be released about this topic soon,but probably not here,at least at first.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

what the hell kind of conversation would one say when mentioning the pieces???

hey son do you see this piece of metal?...yes dad...well now see this 55 Topps rookie card of this player here... well he died in a plane crash and this is a piece of metal from the airplane in which he was flying in !


not in the least bit exciting to me. Matter of fact one has way too much money in pursuing these items.

They should be taken to an ocean in a secret way and disposed of.


good evening
-Dan

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Posted By: DJ

John,

I'm aware that Josh reads this. I'm also aware that only 30 lots in his latest catalog is dedicated to pre-war vintage cards out of the thousand+ lots.

The question is: Why didn't Josh make some kind of 'removal announcement yet' (40+ negative posts here and all the 'bad' Press) and what kind of press did he think he was going to get from this by putting the piece into the catalog? Did he think it was a good idea? Did he think that everyone would embrace this 'amazing find'? He's been in the business long enough.

The post above is correct. What do you tell your children with any piece like this? I guess you don't. Do you pass it on to them? Is it their graduation present?

You tell your buddies at work (who think it's cool, but question the authenticity) and they tell their wives who think you are an idiot with too much money to waste.

DJ

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Posted By: leon

Does Josh know who you are? Just curious as you have more than crossed the line of what the board allows for anonymous posts. Please let me know.....thanks (privately will be ok too)....regards

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Posted By: john/z28jd

I cant answer any of those questions for Josh but i can say your post that only 30 items are vintage cards is a little misleading because youre assuming only one category of their auction appeals to this board.Theres probably a 100 items at least that appeal to most collectors here,the 19th century section,the Kid Nichols section,post war cards,individual team categories,Ruth,Gehirg,Dimaggio categories,Trophies,awards etc.

Not everyone who reads the board only collects pre-war cards,in fact i would assume a majority collect something else(weve had specific threads in the past that have proven that true),and a large majority of the people who read the board dont even post.

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Posted By: scgaynor

"hey son do you see this piece of metal?...yes dad...well now see this 55 Topps rookie card of this player here... well he died in a plane crash and this is a piece of metal from the airplane in which he was flying in !"

Actually, Yes, that is pretty much exactly what you would say and the response would often be "Wow." I wonder what the response was when it was on display at Robert Morris. Did people turn away in disgust, or did they want to touch it?

"not in the least bit exciting to me"

Or me either, but in this day of "reality" television I think that alot of people would find those items alot more facsinating than gruesome.

To many people, this kind of stuff is more interesting than a mass produced piece of cardboard with some guys picture on it.

I would not want to own it, but I know seveal people who would.

Scott

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Scott-- Just because some idiot would like to own something like this does not mean that it appropriate for inclusion in an auction. By including an item an auction company is making the statement that they believe the item is OK. Even Ebay has deemed some items inappropriate for sale on their site. Are all auctions driven that strongly by the almighty dollar that they lose touch with common decency? Are you saying that you would have no problem placing an item like this in your auction? I'de like to hear for other auction houses as to whether they would run an item like this.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Scott, would you auction an item like this off? Even if the family voiced their displeasure to you?

A lot of people may think that it is cool to own such an item, but I think the Clemente family should be the final arbiter in this case. Personally I think it's gruesome.

Maybe Josh can get a hold of the steering wheel from Dale Earnhardt's car for his next auction.

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Posted By: scgaynor

Jay, you are assuming that everybody feels the same way that you do about this piece. Other people obviously agree with you, but not everybody. Lelands has a history of selling controversal pieces, they usually have at least one each auction that gets this kind of media coverage.

My guess is that if this item showed up one ebay, and the family complained to the right people, then ebay would pull it. They have done similar things in the past, they even did it to me over some player contracts that I was selling.

If the item was consigned to me, I would tell the consignor that it was not a good ebay item. I don't have a problem with a Clemente collector adding this to his Clemente memorial, but I have a pretty good idea of what sells well on ebay, and this piece would be nothing but problems.

Scott

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

these mass produced cards with players pictures on them are why you are driving a
Gallardo. Geez, makes us hate our hobby now.

Everybody has an a right to their own opinion, but when a family has a reminder of something very tragic thrown in their faces ,where does your compassion for the hearts of them come in ?

Scott....after doing my Charlie Chan chit, confusious "says" that you are the consignor,right???

Regardless of how this world has aggressed to where most people cant even sit at the dinner table together....the fat kids are inside watching MTV and playing video games, eatin nem twinkies....causing MLB to go to the Dominican Republic to get players, cause we cant the kids on the ball field anymore and we have boring dads who come home and his topic for the evening is um..."gather round everybody "DADDY" has just bought a chunk of a plane that a famous baseball player died in,"WOW",your kidding , right?....no ,thought you all would enjoy this and wanted to share this with you.

Hey dad?....can we play catch with this?...no son, it goes next to the big screen TV for display only, what are you stupid kid????...go to your room and turn on MTV, dont you know art when you see it ? LEAD BY EXAMPLE and not by REALITY TV !